210 Gallon Tank Is 3600 Gpg Return To Much?

[Hendersonracing]

I have a 210 gallon and have a 1800 gph return is a 3600 gph more beneficial or an overkill????

[Hendersonracing]

b

[Ursus]

For a return I would say no. You don't want water racing through your sump. You want it to have some dwell time to be processed by your skimmer, fuge, whatever you use for filtration. Also, high flow through your sump can lead to micro bubble issues.

[MNSPS]

Usually people recommend a 3-5 times turnover rate from your sump in order to avoid micro-bubble problems. I personally would use a pump that gave around 700gph to 1000gph return rate. Then use a closed loop and/or powerheads for the in tank circulation.

[TCU Reefer]

I'm only running a Mag 9.5 (950 gph) on my 215g SPS reef.

The return is not intended to be your main source of flow. This needs to be supplemented by a closed loop system, powerheads, etc.

You just need the return to pump water back into the display at a reasonable rate.

3600 gph would be overkill. Probably would deal with some microbubble issues as well.

Slap a closed loop on your tank with that pump! Sequence Dart?

[CW from the OC]

3600 gph is WAY too much IMO. You are wasting a lot of electricity and $$ pumping all that water uphill. Not sure what power costs where you live, but our power bill, without air conditioning, but with a pool and the tank, can easily go over $600 a month. So electricity cost IS an issue.

There is also is an issue with too much water going through your sump.

For the 210 I'm building presently, I'm going to use a simple Eheim 1262, feeding 2 Wavyseas. For more flow, I'll be running 2 Vortecs. I think that would be a great solution for your tank. you could also use 2-4 Tunzes on a controiller if that is your preference.

[Hendersonracing]

I have 4 seio 2500 in there now....what is the best way for a closed loop any illustrations?

[sjm817]

I would say 1800 GPH is huge overkill, never mind 3600.

[Frankysreef]

I have a 3600 dolphin running on my tank and I LOVE IT!.. Remember for a reef tank you need at least 40-50x turnover, allows great oxygenation, I like my TURBO sump :)

[sjm817]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8159103#post8159103 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Frankysreef
I have a 3600 dolphin running on my tank and I LOVE IT!.. Remember for a reef tank you need at least 40-50x turnover, allows great oxygenation, I like my TURBO sump :)
Yeah, lots of turnover is good, but not from the return pump. 3 -5x from the return.

[Frankysreef]

I disagree with you, maybe you should add " In My Opinion" to your posts....

External pumps rock! Since I am using 2 filter socks each running carbon that filter the water, the water gets filtered very quickly.

My tank grows like a weed, I have no algae problems, aiptasia problems, and my sps are amazing with colors and clarity.

Having a stagnant tank with less oxygenation is probaly less desirable, I also have a mag 7 that pumps into my fuge frag tank.

High water flow will take problems away more quickly also!

Create a dynamic environment with high water flow!

[Frankysreef]

btw: I havent seen bubble algae in years :)

[Hendersonracing]

SO I SHOULD PUT THE 3600 ON IT CAME IN TODAY?


LETS TAKE A POLL MORE FLOW & OR LESS THROUGH THE SUMP???

[kravi]

Basically it is up to you.

IMO (to keep everyone happy) "conventional wisdom" says that your return pump should be around 5x tank size per hour. Additional flow should be provided by powerheads et al.

Another line is that great flow is terrific, and use a huge return pump for lots of oxygenation and great flow.

It also seems that you are pretty set on using this 3600gph return pump, and are hoping someone will give you a go ahead.

Try it. It may screw up your tank, or it may perform beautifully. The "science" of reefkeeping is still in its infancy, so the best people can offer are "rules of thumb" which may or may not be appropriate.

--Me

[Racenrich]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8159103#post8159103 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Frankysreef
I have a 3600 dolphin running on my tank and I LOVE IT!.. Remember for a reef tank you need at least 40-50x turnover, allows great oxygenation, I like my TURBO sump :)

I completely agree with ya!
My 120 has a return of 1500gph and my CL is running at 1300gph---thats putting about 2800gph thru the system!

Hummm 2800/160, includes sump....is about a 17.5x's turnover!! Not 40, but still rocking.....besides i dont have a single power cord in my tank! Gotta love that!


Cheers,
Rich K.

[Frankysreef]

Oxygenation of water is very important...Sooo what if all of your tank water doesnt go through the skimmer the first time through the sump, it will go in the second time.. and so on...

The very fact that the water is exposed to oxygen flowing down your return lines will oxygenate the water which will actually help with skimming anyway.

Remember these are dynamic animals that are USED to heavy wave action, oxygenated water....

The bigger pump the better...You might not be able to grow algae in your sump but that is what a seperate fuge is for.

Look at the growth and colors on my avatar...My tank grows like a weed...

[sjm817]

Hendersonracing,
What pump did you get? I'm curious how you plan on plumbing it both on the overflow/drain plumbing setup and the return to maximize the flow.

[waldomas]

youll have bubble issues with 3600 gal/hr.

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8177508#post8177508 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kravi
Basically it is up to you.

IMO (to keep everyone happy) "conventional wisdom" says that your return pump should be around 5x tank size per hour. Additional flow should be provided by powerheads et al.

Another line is that great flow is terrific, and use a huge return pump for lots of oxygenation and great flow.

It also seems that you are pretty set on using this 3600gph return pump, and are hoping someone will give you a go ahead.

Try it. It may screw up your tank, or it may perform beautifully. The "science" of reefkeeping is still in its infancy, so the best people can offer are "rules of thumb" which may or may not be appropriate.

--Me

I don't think anyone that recommends low flow through a sump (anywhere from 1x to 5x) thinks higher flow will screw up your tank. The problem is that higher flow causes noise, bubbles, saltcreep, etc. Now, you can design a "high flow" sump and not have any of these problems, and you're good to go. The problem is that most conventional sumps don't handle high flow well.

[Frankysreef]

I made my sumpout of an old 60 cut the baffles, made a bubble trap, and I have no bubbles... just add a bubble trap.. easy..

[SDguy]

I'm happy you have room for a 60g sump. We don't all have that luxury. I'm also happy you don't have bubbles and related problems. Feel free to do a search of threads with such problems, and you'll find many that do. Therefore it seems prudent to recommend lower flow though a sump, even after mentioning that high flow can be done. (Oh that's IMO :D )

One other thing....you've just gone through the trouble of skimming your surface tank water where all the proteins have collected and concentrated only to blow most of it right by your skimmer and dilute it back into your tank?? I'm a fan of the skimmer processing ALL the overflow water. Has worked great for me. Again just another way to do things.

hth

[Reefer421]

I have the same Dolphin 3600 on a 210 and am happy so far. The reason I went with that one is because I have seen a number of beautiful tanks that use high flow through the sump.

It is a personal preference...try it and if you don't like the results, change it and use the Dolphin pump for a closed loop or something or just sell it to get what you want.

[Reefer421]

To control micro bubbles I have my overflow on the skimmer going through an added filter sock...works great.

[Hendersonracing]

I ordered a mag 3600 http://a1272.g.akamai.net/7/1272/1121/20060829184354/www.drsfostersmith.com/images/Categoryimages/normal/p_133309_32666i.jpg

Right now I have a 1800...I ordered on spur of the moment for more turnover in the tank....Im also running 4 seio 2600 for flow and a 60 gallon refugium....I can send the pump back no problem...but If it will help my system thrive Id like to try it. I have alot of algae on the side of my tank and a little on the rocks!!!
one thing I dont want is microbubbles in the main tank like some of you have said!! I understand the concept of maintaining the equilibrium between the sump pump and the skimmer pump but I just thought the more turnover the better? Am I wrong? Should I just keep the mag 1800 and send the 3600 back? I have a total volume of 300 gallons!

[Hendersonracing]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8179088#post8179088 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reefer421
To control micro bubbles I have my overflow on the skimmer going through an added filter sock...works great.


my sump has 3 chambers in it...so the microbubbles may not be a problem my return is on the opposite end of the overflows!

[Timbor]

It would be more efficient to use that 3500 on a closed loop. A closed loop does not have the head pressure to deal with, and as such you get more flow.

A closed loop is a pretty simple concept. It helps to have your tank drilled for it, but you can also have the pipes running over the side of the tank.
Here is a link on how to make one if your tank is not drilled.
http://www.melevsreef.com/how_to_build.html

Seriously man, in the name of efficiency, it would be best to keep the 1800GPH on your sump and use the 3600GPH for a closed loop.

HTH

Tim

[SDguy]

Try the head loss calculator to see how much flow you'll actually get out of that electricty eating, water warming pump ;)

[Frankysreef]

Filter socks are great also, they will not only stop microbubbles they give you a convenient place to put a bag with carbon in it.

Oh by the way I also use two skimmers in my sump, one with a mag 9.5, 950gph and a via aqua 3300 990 gph, so about 1800 gph goes into my skimmers.. essentially about 1/2

[Frankysreef]

http://bellabacciusa.com/image2/group.JPG

[SDguy]

Careful with putting carbon in filter socks. I've tried this a few times. If the water is too rough splashing into the sock, your carbon ends up grinding against itself, creating a sort of dust which will enter your water column and kill the foam head on your skimmer. JME.

hth

[Frankysreef]

you put the carbon in a mesh bag then put it in the sock... Get em at jeff's for a dollar.

[Hendersonracing]

OK Im confused.....lol not hard to do.....I only have 2 500 gph skimmers should I put bigger gph on them...or say the Hell with it and leave everything alone? Im wondering If I can eliminate a pump and run the 3600 through my chiller and then to the sump flow? But the chiller is only rated @ 2400 gph 1/4 artica chiller!

[waldomas]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8179112#post8179112 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Hendersonracing
I ordered a mag 3600 http://a1272.g.akamai.net/7/1272/1121/20060829184354/www.drsfostersmith.com/images/Categoryimages/normal/p_133309_32666i.jpg

Right now I have a 1800...I ordered on spur of the moment for more turnover in the tank....Im also running 4 seio 2600 for flow and a 60 gallon refugium....I can send the pump back no problem...but If it will help my system thrive Id like to try it. I have alot of algae on the side of my tank and a little on the rocks!!!
one thing I dont want is microbubbles in the main tank like some of you have said!! I understand the concept of maintaining the equilibrium between the sump pump and the skimmer pump but I just thought the more turnover the better? Am I wrong? Should I just keep the mag 1800 and send the 3600 back? I have a total volume of 300 gallons!
If youre running halides with that mag, I hope you have a good chiller!

[Hendersonracing]

should I run it external?

[Frankysreef]

run a seperate pump on your chiller...I use a mag 9.5 on mine. But my chiller is in the garage also so with head loss it is in the right range.

Only put more GPH on your skimmers if it will make it more efficient.

Filter socks and carbon will pull out more junk, and catch uneaten food before it rots, just change em out every 4 days.

I have 16 socks that I just rotate, and then throw them in the wash on hot with some bleach.

[Frankysreef]

external pumps are the best.. they don't heat your water.

[Hendersonracing]

I have 2 10 inch socks with carbon in them....Im not sure what your saying by replacing them every 4 days? I have carbon in mine & replace them every 30 days?

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8179390#post8179390 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Hendersonracing
OK Im confused.....lol not hard to do.....I only have 2 500 gph skimmers should I put bigger gph on them...or say the Hell with it and leave everything alone? Im wondering If I can eliminate a pump and run the 3600 through my chiller and then to the sump flow? But the chiller is only rated @ 2400 gph 1/4 artica chiller!

Actually I have the 1/4HP arctica. MD has it rated at 480-1920. I run it on the low end and am very happy with the results.

[Frankysreef]

Use a mesh bag to put the carbon in... Then put the mesh bag in the bottom of the filter sock.

You should change out the sock every 4 days or so or it becomes a nitrate factory. But put the mesh bag with the carbon back into the new clean filter sock...

do you understand?

[Hendersonracing]

yes....lol kinda slow & Im not even Blonde....I just want to do whats best for my tank and I get alot of different opinions...

[Frankysreef]

Go slow, and start with cheaper easier to maintain corals, and after you get things dialed in.. you can graduate to the pretty stuff....

Milles are pretty hardy, along with slimers....very very hard to kill digitatas and caps.

Try to establish a zooplankton population for at least 2 mos before you even add anything to it.

Have the system running lights and everything....maybe skimmerless .. add the live rock, and let the benthic invertebrates start to evolve first..

They will populate very quickly without predators and it is these animals that will not only keep your rocks clean and clear of detritus, once they have the ability to get established it will be an important food source for your corals also...

watch the crabs though....I hate crabs... hermits are OK, but any other type of crab is untrustworthy, and they will scrape your acropora.. i have had to stab them with an icepick, and had a trigger that liked to kill them.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8178184#post8178184 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Frankysreef
Oxygenation of water is very important...Sooo what if all of your tank water doesnt go through the skimmer the first time through the sump, it will go in the second time.. and so on...

The very fact that the water is exposed to oxygen flowing down your return lines will oxygenate the water which will actually help with skimming anyway.

Remember these are dynamic animals that are USED to heavy wave action, oxygenated water....

The bigger pump the better...You might not be able to grow algae in your sump but that is what a seperate fuge is for.

Look at the growth and colors on my avatar...My tank grows like a weed...

And none of that is helped by running huge amounts of water through your sump. You could do the same running a smaller return, and a closed loop, and use much less electricity.


I have WAY more flow than you in my tank, and I only have a maxi1200 for a return.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8179313#post8179313 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Frankysreef
http://bellabacciusa.com/image2/group.JPG

Nobody said that using a huge return doesnt work great.

All we're saying is its a collosal waste of energy, and the same results can be had with a small return, and closed loop.

[Hendersonracing]

cool my tank is getting there been running 6 months now here are a few pictures

http://usera.imagecave.com/hendersonracing/Picture022.jpg

http://usera.imagecave.com/hendersonracing/Picture021.jpg

[sjm817]

Nice looking tanK!!

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8179112#post8179112 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Hendersonracing
I ordered a mag 3600
You will need to plumb that with 2" plumbing to get the full flow out of it if that is what you want (2x outlet size). Your Mag18 should have 1.5". How will you get that much back to the sump? Will your overflows handle that much?

[Hendersonracing]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8179695#post8179695 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Nobody said that using a huge return doesnt work great.

All we're saying is its a collosal waste of energy, and the same results can be had with a small return, and closed loop.



but If I don't have a closed loop here I go again...try the 3600? lol

and If so will placing it in the water be ok or will it get to hot?

[Hendersonracing]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8179733#post8179733 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sjm817
You will need to plumb that with 2" plumbing to get the full flow out of it if that is what you want (2x outlet size).


the tank is already plumbed @ 1" all the way across....so essentially it wont do 3600 gph?

[sjm817]

1" plumbing is a huge flow restriction for the Mag18. That is the appropriate size plumbing for a Mag7.

[SDguy]

Really, try it out. It's quite informative:

http://www.reefcentral.com/calc/hlc2.php

[Hendersonracing]

well the return line where 1" when I got the tank it is a mega flow!! It may be 1 1/2?

[Hendersonracing]

http://usera.imagecave.com/hendersonracing/Picture053.jpg


refuge

http://usera.imagecave.com/hendersonracing/Picture121.jpg

[Frankysreef]

So two pumps are better than one?

This thread is proof that there is many ways to do something in this hobby.

I initially went with a large ret pump because of the added expense and complexity of a closed loop.... Not to mention the fact that the corals will grow INTO the flow of the closed loop therefore negating some of the flow effects when they get larger..

I decided on a large pump with an array at the outlet spreading the flow around three outlets...made out of a PVC T and 45 and 90... same effect as closed loop... lots of flow in different areas, but not as much plumbing..

As my reef got bigger and bigger, the ret flow was not enough, so I add 2 seios, that was good for about 6 mos, and now I just added 2 more seio 1500's and everything seems happy...

Closed loops are nice, I looked into the manifold thing when I started my design, but a lot of work, and to get the required flow out of them depending on how many nozzles that you have required another large pump. Too complicated ...

They work, but there is no proof that they are the BEST way...

In fact there is no BEST way to do anything in this hobby.

My system works great for me, easy maintenance, great flow, and great looking corals...

I had this exact discussion with a friend of mine who commented on my turbo sump... But My corals grew twice as fast as his, and my coloration was much more spectacular...( his tank has since perished )

A lot of very successful reef tanks including mine, all use some method of mechanical waste removal, and run carbon 24/7.

I like my filter socks with carbon, and my two skimmers, my skimmers don't even pull that much out either...

My corals have started turning into filters, so my water is extremely clean.

But This is just MY OPINION... do what you want, but not everyone is right.

[sjm817]

Frankysreef, where is your returm plumbing in that pic? How is it set up?

[Hendersonracing]

ok since I have it its going in and Ill post results later....I have it so Im going to try it....Im sure Im not getting a true 1800 gph outta the mag 18 now since Im only running 1 1/2 return plumming! the flow coming out of the overflows is really slow and provides no circulation @ all right now all Im really using is my 4 seio 2600's I may back that down to 3 and run the big return....I just don't want to have microbubbles coming into the main tank....but Ill never know If I dont try it!!!!

[Frankysreef]

http://bellabacciusa.com/image2/reef1.JPG

Older pic, have since removed the spreaders...Clogged with GSP

[Frankysreef]

http://kellyandcojewelry.com/reef1.JPG

[Frankysreef]

The trick to get the velocity is to run 1.5 inch pipe up to the bulkhead of the tank and then step it down to 3/4

[SDguy]

Frankysreef

You know, for someone who likes to say how there is no best way to do something in this hobby, you certainly have an *interesting* way of supporting your methodology by knocking others.

Closed loops are this. Well oxygenated water will only be achieved by that. Others who disagree with me have worse tanks. Come on already.

My point is, your tank is beautiful. And yes, you are right...lot's of different ways to do things in this hobby. But I suggest you try liking your methodology because of what it does for your tank, not because you think other methods are crappy.

[sjm817]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8179853#post8179853 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Hendersonracing
ok since I have it its going in and Ill post results later....I have it so Im going to try it....Im sure Im not getting a true 1800 gph outta the mag 18 now since Im only running 1 1/2 return plumming! the flow coming out of the overflows is really slow and provides no circulation @ all right now all Im really using is my 4 seio 2600's I may back that down to 3 and run the big return....I just don't want to have microbubbles coming into the main tank....but Ill never know If I dont try it!!!!
Megaflows bulkheads have 1" drains and 3/4" returns. There may be larger plumbing installed in the bulkheads though.

[Hendersonracing]

thats exactly what mine is 1.5 in to the main return and 3/4 up through the return & out!!!

[Frankysreef]

sdguy you should read the topic of the post, the guy is asking if 3600 gph is too much for a 210, I was trying to support the guy while you are knocking him down.

Trying to convince him to get a closed loop, get a different pump... he already has the pump.

And I never suggested other methods are crappy, I said complex...

[Hendersonracing]

as you can see on my pic I have the 1.5 going into the 1" hose!!

[SDguy]

1. He said he could return the pump. (I do not "knock people down").

2. I never suggested he get a closed loop.

3. I said as long as his sump can handle it, a large return pump can work just fine. You obviously agree with this since you keep mentioning your turbo sump.

My comments have mostly been on plumbing size, flow through the chiller, Magdrive power consumption.

[Frankysreef]

run 1.5 inch line up to the 3/4 and then step it down... You'll get more velocity.

[sjm817]

The megaflow system wont handle the flow of that Mag36. The overflows, the drain and return plumbing are not designed to do that. You could choke the flow way back with small plumbing (you already are), so what would a bigger pump get you?

You could remove the overflow teeth, use both bulkheads for drains and run the return (2") up the back of the tank. Not that you want that much flow from a return anyway..

IMO

[jon575]

I use two HD70 which is 1740 gph each on my 240 gal and after compensating for 90's 45's height, i get 3220 gph roughly. I do believe it turning over your mainstank more than 10x per hour but thats just me. as you can see in the picture, you will see a returns on top..two on each side... and a spray bar on the bottom. one on each side drilled into the side of the overflow box. What is standing on the sides of the overflow box, is the intake to the closed loop and returns water through the bottom spray bar
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/37986DSC00021.JPG

[SDguy]

Have you considered something like an Oceansmotions device? I know, $$$, but.... You can get away with a much smaller pump/plumbing, yet still get lots of random flow in the tank, since only one or two nozzles will actually be shooting water at a time. Not sure how much replumbing you can/are willing to do. Just a thought. Smaller pump also means smaller electric bill.

hth