Yikes!! Too Many Dwarf Angels!!

[ethompson]

Well, I ordered a few fish on-line and they came in a week ago. Until now i've only had small fish (pair of clowns, pair of clown gobies, etc.) I ordered a coral beauty, a flame angel, a randall's goby, and a Powder Blue Tang. I know the risks of putting 2 dwarf angels in a 120 and I know that a 120 is pushing it for a powder blue.

Well, the angels are doing great and are peaceful with eachother but the powder showed up near death and the Goby was non existent. The pbt died so I e-mailed them to let them know exactly what happened and they were willing to send me the another fish and the missing goby at NO charge.

Well, they sent me the complete order. I now have 2 coral beauties, 2 flame angels, and the powder blue. The powder blue is in the 20 gallon quarantinetank that was set aside last week for the first pbt. I've got the 2nd coral beautyin the sump and the flame angel in the refugium.

The new batch of angels are considerably smaller than the first batch.

I live over an hour to the nearest lfs and have no reefer friends in the area. So...what would you do? (I think I know your answer:rolleyes:)

Tank is a 4'x2'x2' 120 with ~120 pounds of live rock in the system and a couple of zoathids and mushrooms. I have a 29 gallon sump and a 15 gallon refugium. MyReefCreations MR2 skimmer, a panworld 70rlt returned through 4 penductors. (lots of flow)

ethompson

[dippin61]

send them to me? =P

[ethompson]

So...can you pick them up?

[wayne in norway]

I'd consider pairing the angels. How big are they - if one is very small then it's almost certainly a female, and it would have a reasonable chance of success. If neither is super large (say 1 is 1 1/2, one is 2 1/2)
2 pairs in a 120 might be pushing it though, but if it's long rather than tall.........

[jmaneyapanda]

please do not try putting the new angels in with the others. As you said, I probably wouldn't have even put the two dwarves in the 120, but same species will end up with deaths for sure. Find them a new home.

[printedpaper]

where in Michigan do you live?

[Angel*Fish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8183436#post8183436 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wayne in norway
I'd consider pairing the angels. How big are they - if one is very small then it's almost certainly a female, and it would have a reasonable chance of success. If neither is super large (say 1 is 1 1/2, one is 2 1/2)
2 pairs in a 120 might be pushing it though, but if it's long rather than tall.........
Ditto - how long from nose to end of tail?
Also what would you say the length of the blue part on the tail and anal fins of the flames are horizontally? Relative to the fish - the female's blue trim is much much shorter than the male's - of course you have to be careful comparing differently sized fish

If one of these angels (CB or flame) is a juvenile, I wouldn't pass up the opportunity to pair them :D At least where I am juvenile Centropyges are few & far between


How much time passed between the two shipments?

[flameangel88]

That looks like a good problem you have there and you've new friends poping up for a visit.

I would give it try for them to pair up but monitor closely and if that doesn't work out then separate them and call up local reefers that you are putting down on the waiting list.

[Angel*Fish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8185160#post8185160 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by flameangel88
That looks like a good problem you have there and you've new friends poping up for a visit.

I would give it try for them to pair up but monitor closely and if that doesn't work out then separate them and call up local reefers that you are putting down on the waiting list.

You'll want to make sure they are appropriate candidates first

[jmaneyapanda]

Do you think its really a good idea to pair two pairs of centropyge in a 120? I have never tried it before, but it sounds like a disaster waiting to happen to me. But, again, I have no experience, aside from literature.

[Angel*Fish]

Are you talking to me? Well..as long as they won't be making any hybrids, it will be ok... :) j/k

Well I didn't really address that - but I agree with Wayne --seems like it's pushing it. I don't have two pairs in my 100g but depending on the fish, the length of the tank, the layout of the rocks, how often the fish are fed and who else is in there with them - I'd think it could be ok

As far as I know we haven't established that either of these fish would be good candidates for pairing. I figured the odds were that if ethompson were shipped any juveniles, it would not be likely that both the CB and the flame were, so the issue would never come up.

However there are some folks on this board who never shy away from the controversial question - and I think they know who they are ;) :D :lol:

[ethompson]

As far as trying to pair the angels, The new coral beauty is about 3 inches with the old one barely larger. These don't look like good candidates at all for pairing.

The new flame is 2.25 inches long with the old one (one week) being about 3.25 inches. This would be the only possible candidate for pairing.

What are the chances that this would/will work? I don't have much coral so I could try it and pull rock out to catch the little guy if it gets ugly.

So...would you try it with the flame? He's currently in the refugium learning how to eat flakes and frozen.

ethompson



p.s. I live about an hour north of Grand Rapids, MI

[LargeAngels]

I know you aren't talking about me Angelfish (hehe.)

Angelfish is right. First it must be determined that they are compatible as pairs. Then I put the fish into a clear container, with holes for circulation, into the main tank and observe the behaviour of the the two fish. This also allows them to get over the initial automatic attack that some angels do. If after a couple of days they don't show much aggression I release the fish. Keep a VERY close eye on the pair.

This picture is of one venustus in such a container being introduced to another. They are now a happy pair.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/11732venustus-pair.jpg

[jmaneyapanda]

Jeez- I should've known better Angelfish!!!:D I would think that an "established" centropyge- especially a recently "established" centropyge would not tolerate another conspecific in a 4 foot by 2 foot by 2 foot square. Regardless of rock layout or tankmates. I am only speculating, though.

[ethompson]

Oh great Angel*Fish, please give me insight into your great wisdom in all things aquatic. What are the chances of acclimating this 2.25" flame angel with the 3.25" flame and coral beauty. Oh great one, please enlighten me:confused:

[LauraCline]

lol, use this as an excuse to get another tank.

[printedpaper]

ethompson, you have a PM

[petoonia]

Post in the Marine Aquarium Society of Michigan forum. You will probably be able to find someone close to you there. Im sure someone will help you out.

Good Luck!!!

[petoonia]

Nevermind. I just checked out that forum, and its pretty much dead! You could try contacting them another way.

[wayne in norway]

I'd have thought considerably smaller meant a bigger differnece in sizes. The flames are possible.
If you have a couple spare tanks I'd say suck it and see - if they haven't started scrapping after a week I'd guess you're in good shape. The Coral beauties are not good candidates.
A pair of dwarves is better than two singles for sure - but you don't want casualties

[Angel*Fish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8186722#post8186722 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
Jeez- I should've known better Angelfish!!!:D I would think that an "established" centropyge- especially a recently "established" centropyge would not tolerate another conspecific in a 4 foot by 2 foot by 2 foot square. Regardless of rock layout or tankmates. I am only speculating, though. That's why i asked how long it was between the shipments. But there are other factors like other angels in the tank. When my male flame died, his replacement was chased out by a tiny cherub :rolleyes: So I gave up. But several weeks ago I saw a huge male flame and tried him - he had to work things out with the Singapore and the Herald's angel, but it only took a day. The little female was very receptive even after months had passed.

Your point about the tank being only 4 foot is one I had missed before - a longer tank would be better

Wayne, I, too thought ethompson was talking about a greater size difference - I guess you'd have to do it as LargeAngels already mentioned - but with an obvious juvenile it's so easy (you can just toss it into the main tank) & being a lazy reefer that method is very appealing :D

A pair of dwarves is better than two singles for sure Sounds like poker :D I guess a pair of venustus beats a pair of flames lol :D

[Angel*Fish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8189029#post8189029 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ethompson
Oh great Angel*Fish, please give me insight into your great wisdom in all things aquatic. What are the chances of acclimating this 2.25" flame angel with the 3.25" flame and coral beauty. Oh great one, please enlighten me:confused:
I guess I'm a truely insensitive dolt - I have no idea what I said to offend you - please elaborate.

[ethompson]

Angel*Fish...I was serious. You have more experience than me. I was just looking for your honest opinion. That was my attempt at humor and nothing else. I guess I'll be more careful next time.

I have put the new smaller flame angel in a clear plastic 1/2 gallon juice container. I poked a buch of holes in it to get good flow to him. I set him in the middle of the tank between the reef on the left and the island on the right. So far the other angels could care less about the little guy. This could be a good sign or it could be that the fish are afraid of the big clear container in their living room. It may give them flashbacks or something.

I'll let it go a couple few days and see if the warm fuzzy's wear off after they get use to the container.

So...what I meant to say was so far so good.

Eric

[Angel*Fish]

Oh - sorry, no one is ever that nice to me - lol

It may give them flashbacks or something Funny :lol:
That's a good way to try and see how they react to each other -

A word if you decide to release the fish:
In my experience releasing an unwanted angel into the main tank will not result in physical attacks (actual biting) initially. What tends to happen is the unwanted angel will stay cornered near the top of the tank. If the fish is going to try & work things out, it will test the waters when the other offending fish are not near. If it's not going try to work it out with its tankmates it will stay there desperately wanting to escape. This can make it easy to catch with a net. However this may not work and you could be forced to remove the rocks to catch it.

If these were my fish, I would not attempt release unless I was pretty certain they were opposite sexes -- there are stories of male angels changing back to female - but most of the ones I've heard were Geniacanthus angels rather than Centropyge. On the other hand, if you feel like experimenting and have the means to make sure nobody gets hurt, I'd be most interested in hearing how things turn out. :)

[ethompson]

I'll keep you posted.

I have this tank in my high school biology classroom. Students have been fascinated with it to say the least. If I do attempt this it will probably be next Monday with curious eyes watching.

I'll be there for 10 hours after the initial introduction to see how things go and I would turn all lights out when leaving to cut down on squabbling.

Should I put the fish in just before or just after rearranging the rock?

I will set up the rocks with an island in the middle and small reef type structures in each of the back corners against the Megaflow. This way I would at least have 3 separated structures. Initially I might try to section off one of the corners with eggcrate for a while.

If it doesn't work, I guess I'll be able to fine tune this new aquascaping setup as I will have to tear it apart to get him out.

ethompson

[Angel*Fish]

If you're not concerned about moving the rocks around then I guess there's no problem - obviously you don't want to stress the fish out if possible.

If it were me, I'd put the new fish in right after rearranging the rocks. Less stress for him. If he hasn't started working things out with the other fish by 10 hours, he may not be able to do so ever.

One option is to rearrange the rocks such that you can divide the tank into 2 parts until you have time to catch one of them. That way you could just slide that in and go home. It could also function longer-term as a way to acclimate them to each other.

[Angela Short]

Angel*fish,
That would be so cool to have a pair of flames! Never thought it could be done. So what do you look for to pair them? One conciderably smaller than the other or are there physical differances in them to look for? The one I have is what I would concider large. Also My current flame is in a 30 gallon QT and not been introduced to the 270 yet. Should I try to do this in the 30 or wait and try in the 270 with a clear container as you mentioned? Thanks and sorry for the hijack :)

[ethompson]

Second flame angel is in. Initially their was some pecking and chasing but it was pretty tame. They are now starting to settle in and seem to be getting along. They know where eachother are and there is a little chasing on occasion, but it hasn't been bad at all. I think it may work or at least it seems to be working so far.

ethompson

[Angela Short]

Keep us updated on how it goes. I would love to have a pair of flames.

[Angel*Fish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8198475#post8198475 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Angela Short
Angel*fish,
That would be so cool to have a pair of flames! Never thought it could be done. So what do you look for to pair them? One considerably smaller than the other or are there physical differances in them to look for? The one I have is what I would consider large. Also My current flame is in a 30 gallon QT and not been introduced to the 270 yet. Should I try to do this in the 30 or wait and try in the 270 with a clear container as you mentioned? Thanks and sorry for the hijack :)
Sorry for the late reply - I spent the last 3 days at MACNA

When looking for a female, you need it to be very very much smaller than the male, and for it to have much thinner black stripes and for the blue on the tail and anal fins to be much shorter --all relative to the fish size. The female's blue might only be 1/8 of an inch and we're talking horizontally.

If you find a fish that is only an inch long, it's probably going to be just fine
As for which tank - probably the 30g if it has rocks.

ethompson - That's great! The male should do some occasional chasing of the female just to reassure everyone'who's boss. But she should have full "swim of the tank".

Keep us posted!

[Angela Short]

OK Thanks for the info. The one I have is definetly big with large black stripes and a good bit of blue so its definetly male then. Should I introduce them in the 270 or in a 30 gallon long? He is just about to finnish up in QT.

[Angel*Fish]

If you're not sure the potential mate is female, I'd use the 30g
If it's definitely a small female/juvenile you can add it anytime to your main tank containing the male - though I'd say it would be much better for it to be not longer than 3-4 days after adding the male

[rmougey]

Interesting observations here. I've never tried to pair flames, but have had success pairing other dwarf angels. Way back in the mid 80's I was lucky enough to have a pair of C. resplendens in a 75 gallon soft coral tank. They remain my favorite dwarf angel today. If only I could still purchase them for $65 each, retail.

I've also had good success pairing African Flame Backs (C. acanthops). They were very tolerant of each other and I used the size rule, one big and one smaller. They played in a 135 for many years.

A friend paired C. multicolor in a 125 clown and anemone tank. A bit combative at first, but both settled down nicely.

As far as sexual changes, I have not seen this occur in the Centropyge angels, but have first hand knowledge with Genicanthus. My male G. wantanabe entered quarantine and emerged as a girl. Sadly the transformation is complete and he... er she.... has lost all vestiges of male coloration. That said, she's a pretty fish. But.... he/she came from the LFS at a premium for the male.

Looking forward to hearing more about how the Flames do!

-Rob

[Angel*Fish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8222243#post8222243 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rmougey
Interesting observations here. I've never tried to pair flames, but have had success pairing other dwarf angels. Way back in the mid 80's I was lucky enough to have a pair of C. resplendens in a 75 gallon soft coral tank. They remain my favorite dwarf angel today. If only I could still purchase them for $65 each, retail.

I've also had good success pairing African Flame Backs (C. acanthops). They were very tolerant of each other and I used the size rule, one big and one smaller. They played in a 135 for many years.

A friend paired C. multicolor in a 125 clown and anemone tank. A bit combative at first, but both settled down nicely.

As far as sexual changes, I have not seen this occur in the Centropyge angels, but have first hand knowledge with Genicanthus. My male G. wantanabe entered quarantine and emerged as a girl. Sadly the transformation is complete and he... er she.... has lost all vestiges of male coloration. That said, she's a pretty fish. But.... he/she came from the LFS at a premium for the male.

Looking forward to hearing more about how the Flames do!

-Rob
I'm hearing that more and more about the watanabes - I actually think the females are prettier anyway, but I'm in the minority

[Angela Short]

I will just hold out the flame from the 270 and start looking for a nice tiny girl for him to play with and introduce them in the 30. Thanks for the info!

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8183448#post8183448 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
please do not try putting the new angels in with the others. As you said, I probably wouldn't have even put the two dwarves in the 120, but same species will end up with deaths for sure. Find them a new home.

I've seen healthy breeding angel pairs in 20Hs. People are entirely too trapped by dogma with these fish.


Add the little ones to the tank if you can establish sexes, or if theyre juveniles. Move some rock around so that its not such a territorial situation. THeres a good chance you'll end up with 2 pairs.



edit: just noticed sizes.

I'd introduce the fish in a plastic box like someone else showed. Much more likely to have thigns go well.

[Angel*Fish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8224857#post8224857 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
I've seen healthy breeding angel pairs in 20Hs. People are entirely too trapped by dogma with these fish.


Add the little ones to the tank. Move some rock around so that its not such a territorial situation. THeres a good chance you'll end up with 2 pairs.
Are you saying that you definitely know that male Centopyges do indeed change back to female if need be?

I don't know if you've ever had/seen mating angelfish, but it is a bit frantic. Two mating pairs in the same tank while possible obviously, just may not be the atmosphere everyone wants for their aquarium. It is probably more stressful for the fish involved. And this tank is only 4 feet long.

And 2 fish mating in a certain size tank is not evidence that the given tank size is ideal or even adequate for the humane care of the animals in question.

I suppose you could keep the tank temperature low & it would reduce courting and calm things down.

[ethompson]

This is an article I found at: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/centropyge2.htm

I think it is helpful


Reproduction, Sexual Differentiation:

In terms of sexing members of the genus, some are known to display temporary or permanent color differences between the sexes (dichromatism), and in all there are size differences (dimorphism) by sex. For example in Potter's and flame angelfishes males are larger and colorful on their unpaired fins than females.

All dwarf angels investigated start off sexually undifferentiated, become females that turn into males with age/growth, a condition called protogynous (first female) hermaphroditism (possessing both sexes). Further Centropyge live in groups of one male with several females, in a harem or haremic condition. When the male is removed from this harem, or in a situation of surplus females, one of them will convert to a male.

Spawning has been observed in the wild and in captivity for a number of pygmy angel species. On the reef some are seasonal spawners, tied with the seasons, moons or tides, others behave less discriminately as in captivity. Actual gamete release follows a set pattern, with a pair doing a swimming dance, soaring about a prominent spot, spawning and an after-chase.

A dozen or so species have spawned in captivity, though raising the planktonic young to size has proven elusive.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8224938#post8224938 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Angel*Fish
Are you saying that you definitely know that male Centopyges do indeed change back to female if need be?

I don't know if you've ever had/seen mating angelfish, but it is a bit frantic. Two mating pairs in the same tank while possible obviously, just may not be the atmosphere everyone wants for their aquarium. It is probably more stressful for the fish involved. And this tank is only 4 feet long.

And 2 fish mating in a certain size tank is not evidence that the given tank size is ideal or even adequate for the humane care of the animals in question.

I suppose you could keep the tank temperature low & it would reduce courting and calm things down.

Judging what is humane, and what is not, is tough.

No, I've never seen male angels change to female, and I doubt it is possible. As to the Genicanthus, I'd argue that its most likely just a male in female colors, and not a full out female.

I have seen mating Centropyge, and yes, its frantic. I just think a 120 is a pretty big tank, and I think people are so stuck in the idea of huge reef tanks that they think everything needs an 8' tank. I've got a small pair of occelaris clowns in a 7 gallon minibow. People think thats wrong. I dont. The other pair, in my main tank, dont use any more space than the ones in the 7 do, and yet, somehow, the ones in the 7 are a travesty. Fish dont seem to mind though.


If the OP is willing to keep an eye on the tank, I think he should try it. If not, sell off a couple of fish.


The literature has to be taken with a grain of salt. Most of it is quite old, and a lot of it was come by people who would throw two centropyge in, watch them fight, and say they can't be kept together. At some point, we realized they were sexible, and throwing two males together wasnt a good idea. A male and a female is generally fine though, itst just that the old Literature sticks around (because very few actually do real research, they just copy what the last author said.)

[ethompson]

Update,

30 hours have passed since I introduced the 2nd flame angel. At this point all 3 of the angels have full range of the tank. During feeding they swim and feed side by side and could care less about the presence of the others. There is very little chasing and virtually no pecking or standoffs. So far...I have a peaceful 120 reef tank with a coral beauty and 2 flame angels!! :D

Got rid of the second coral beauty. He found a new 90 gallon home of his own.

[Angel*Fish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8227204#post8227204 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ethompson
Update,

30 hours have passed since I introduced the 2nd flame angel. At this point all 3 of the angels have full range of the tank. During feeding they swim and feed side by side and could care less about the presence of the others. There is very little chasing and virtually no pecking or standoffs. So far...I have a peaceful 120 reef tank with a coral beauty and 2 flame angels!! :D

Got rid of the second coral beauty. He found a new 90 gallon home of his own. Fabulous! Congratulations! It may take a while to see courtship, depending on your fish...do you know what to expect?

[ethompson]

Angel*Fish

I'm really not sure what to expect as far as courtship goes. So what should I expect to see?

ethompson

[Angela Short]

Well, I just stopped by a loca LFS today and he happen to have the tinyest flame I had ever seen. Definetly female but it had a good sprinkle of ick going on and he wouldn't come off the price of $69.99 an inch. I couldn't justify paying full price for a sick fish when the other LFS down the road let me have the flame in my QT for "FREE" and I just come and pay if he lives. This store hosts a reef club meeting 2x a year and they know I will be good for it otherwise the fish definetly wouldn't have made it through the night at the store with no intervention. He had ICK, a mystery disease I treated with broad spectrum antibiotics, and was touch and go for a few days but seems healthy as can be 4 weeks later :). I get great satisfaction from taking a poor sick fish and nursing it back to health. I have bought 3 fish purposly with just ICK with full confidence I can cure them but always got a good discount off retail for a obviousely sick fish. I am a little aggravated he wouldn't budge because it was a sweet looking fish and exactly what I needed but the principle of it keeps me from buying her.