View Full Version : my tank isnt looking good
I have a 600l (including sump) tank and it is not looking good, so i maybe some advice will help make it look like a reef tank. My tank has been setup for 9 month now and the live rock is a boring brown color, no coralline or and nice algae but the brown slime. I have just brought a new protein skimmer (D-deltic mce600) hoping that it might change the appearance of the tank but it’s to soon to notice anything. I’m doing a 10% water change once a week (either synthetic or natural see water). I feed my fish one cube of mysis shrimp every 2 days and freeze dried krill in between. I have a one copper banded butterfly fish, one lipstick tang, 2 firefish, one fox face, 2 ocellaris clowns, one Picasso trigger, one snowflake eel and one rainbow wrasse in my sump. I have 2 corals one hard and the other being soft.
After reading all that I bet you just forgot what the question was, the question was how can I make my tank look good?
demonsp
09/26/2006, 08:28 PM
Well a pic would be a good start , also your spec's. And do you have a cleanup crew ? Did you have a skimmer before this one ? What type of light? these things would help .
Ill put a pic up tonight. I have a 4 foot by 2 foot and a sump undneath that’s 200l. my filtration is a sump with baffles that are filled with bio matt, rocks and sand. It is doing 4500l an hour. My protein skimmer (new) is doing 300l an hour but it is pulling out a damm lot of waste. I have I have 6500l of water movement in the tank. I have a 150watt 10, 000 Kelvin halide two 40 watt fluorescent one being 10,000kelvin and the other being a blue actinic. My photoperiod is 8 hours with the halide and 10 with the fluorescent. I did have a skimmer but it was really crap so I brought a new one. Not to sure if my tang and fox face is consider a clean up crew but they do eat the algae.
demonsp
09/26/2006, 08:57 PM
Tang and rabbit could never keep up with that tanks alone and they eat larger algea and from the rocks for the most part.Do you have sand or crushed coral or bare bottom ? And your perimators would help. though over feeding dont seem to be the problem.
Shagsbeard
09/26/2006, 08:59 PM
Test for nitrates... I bet they're high. You have ten fish in a tank... what... about 100 gallons... you're running quite a bio-load. Not excessive, but certainly not light. The water changes should be helping the nitrate problem.
Addition of a clean up crew of snails and possibly hermit crabs would help with diatoms... your brown stuff. You might also try altering your flow patterns daily. Changing your flow would shift any dead spots around and give problem algae a harder time to take hold.
Two major ways to deal with algae is to deprive it of food (nitrates and phosphates) or introduce something that eats it. Growing a macro algae in your sump is a favored way of depriving your tank of algae's nutrients.
demonsp
09/26/2006, 08:59 PM
Oh i almost forgot did you use untreated tap water or good RO water
i use tap water, i cant afford a reverse osimosis.
im dping a test now so i will be back with the results.
menzies2901
09/26/2006, 10:28 PM
g'day fellow Aussie,
Sounds like you are having a bit of trouble, when i first set my tank up the substrate was always dirty so i introduced a pair of choc gobies, they turn over the substrate considerably digging holes under the rock and eating the argonite and spitting it back out clean. I also introduced 2 hermit crabs,2 turbo snail and 2 coral banded shrimp. With all these cleaners they keep the tank clean, however i find that if i don't clean the glass each day it will have algae on it within 3 days.
What i did for the landscape was to look at many diffrent types of reef tanks around my size and find one that is to my liking and copied it. All my corals were bought over a period of time, too expensive otherwise.
research the types and colours and then buy heaps, i look at photos of when i first had just the live rock and cannot reconise it to what it is today.
best of luck mate, have fun.....Your new protien skimmer will do wonders and you could also add a phosphate pad to you sump to reduce phosphate levels.
Also....Australian water is not like in the US it has already gone through a RO/DI unit before it reaches our taps, so all you need to add to the water is an ager/ anti stress eg. Prime when doing water changes or toping up evaporated water.
menzies2901
09/26/2006, 10:34 PM
Also becareful because some of your fish are not suited for a reef tank............
i caught the pacasso my self from my local snorkel spot. what other fish are not reef worthy
i did my test and its [profanity] to do but any way its 35-40mg/l. i guess this is high so i think i have found my problem. should i do a 50% water change?
oops didnt no that word was bad. another question how much lighting should i have for a soft coral tank?
listen_to_slaye
09/27/2006, 06:17 AM
if you have a 150W halide i would think that is more than enough for softies..
peterv
09/27/2006, 02:29 PM
Hello
If i were you ,i would have bought a bigger skimmer to
I think the mce 600 is a little to small for a 600 l tank..
what would you recomend? if i was to put coral banded shrimp in my tank would i need to get rid of my snow flake eel?
i did a 25% water change and i still have high nitrates. so now im going to do a 50% water change. do you have any other suggestions on lowering my nitrates.
peterv
09/28/2006, 04:30 AM
i would take the apf 600 ( or bigger ,if you have the place)
With a good oversized skimmer ,good live rock and waterchanges the no3 will lower (give it some time..)
Cosmo^Kramer
09/28/2006, 05:53 AM
Do you have and macro alges growing in the sump? If not I would get some.I have a batch of cheato and calupra just starting to take off in my sump/fuge.I use a 70w MH on the sump and it grows like crazy.You can get a inexpensive light and it will grow nicely.Check in the DIY threads.As it grows you harvest it and it will remove phosphates and nitrates.You can even build a small alge turf scrubber with the size of your sump.I've been doing some research on them again and I am amazed at the nutrients they take out of the water,even on a small scale.Heres a article on a turf scrubber they placed in Townsville, Australia.HTH
http://www.hydroponics.com.au/back_issues/issue18.html
i would do it but its just the electrical bill. i have a tiny mangrove going in my overflow and i just put some see weed and algae i got from the ocean yesterday. will the seeweed take any nitrates out. if i do, do the sump/fuge whats the smallest light wattage i can use?
Cosmo^Kramer
09/28/2006, 10:39 AM
atty,I had calupra growing with a regular 20w floursent bulb.It was one of those small under counter lights.It grew slowly but it grew.I would think seaweed would take nutrients out of the water
thanks, im thinking of doing a 8 ltr refuge that hangs of the back of my tank, so then i can use my metal halide thats shining over my tank, would this be a good idea? i will also put a mangrove in there
bertoni
09/28/2006, 05:54 PM
8L is pretty small for a tank that size, but you could try it. The mangrove isn't going to help, in my opinion, so I wouldn't bother. They grow very slowly, so they don't seem to take up much in the way of nutrients.
Vin7250
09/28/2006, 06:38 PM
listen man....what you need to do is a large water change around 25 - 40 % next you need to remove the bio matt and if you have any other sponges or bio balls of any sort (because these types of detritus gathering things breed nitrates like crazy). Next you need to stop using seawater you are taking home from the shore ( thats my opinion, you never know what you are taking home) you are better off getting like 20 or 30 gallons from walmart of RO water and it will cost you like 20$. Your tap water may be adding tons of phosphates and nitrates as well as many other contaminants that you don't want to be intruducing to your system especially since you are having a major problem as it is...Then once you have changed with clean fresh saltwater made from RO water you should check your nitrates nitrite ammonia and pH and go from there. I think youll be able to get this undercontrol if you keep up on this for a few weeks and continue to change water with good quality water.
Vin7250
09/28/2006, 06:44 PM
plus i dont know if you answered this above but how much live rock in lbs. do you have in this system?? Becuase i believe 600l equates to about 160gal and you should have at least 160lbs probably much more with a bioload like you have in there. You need a lot of rock in a tank that size to really be able to filter your water. And dont start getting reef until you start to remove some of the non reef safe animals in there such as the eel and the butterfly the trigger and maybe even the tang. Some would leave most of these in but I find them too aggressive.
i have a 132 pounds of live rock, i brought it uncured so this could also added to the problem. i have a load of crushed up coral and sand stone in my sump, no filter floss but only natural things. 2 days ago i did a 20% water change with see water and then i did a 60% water change today and it made a huge difference. in 4 days time i will preform another 60% water change. oh and this is with synthectic salt (instant ocean is the salt im using). i just measued up and got the volume of the refuge i can build and it came to 25lts (6 gal).
so im going to get rid of my eel and replace him with some shrimps.
Vin7250
09/29/2006, 09:59 AM
get the crushed coral out and the sand stone.......if yuou are using natural sea water STOP using it and you need at least 30 more lbs of rock
Vin7250
09/29/2006, 10:01 AM
you need at least 160lbs I would suggest 200lbs of cured rock for you.........get all that stuff out of your sump you dont need crushed coral or sand stone......and if you have crused coral in the main tank for ur substrate remove that slowly as well and just use sand........and honestly read up on starting a reef on this site it seems like you jumped into this......by the way how llong has this tank been set up?
its been set up for 9 month's
bertoni
10/03/2006, 03:57 PM
Photos might help some. Could you post a summary of all the water parameters as they stand now? Is there room for a larger refugium?
m3rcury
10/03/2006, 04:06 PM
did anyone ask about AK and Ca? granted, the nitrate/cycling problem is much more urgent, but if you want coralline growth and hard coral growth, you will need to make sure your AK and Ca are within acceptable limits.
Ph 8.0
Ammonia 0 mg/l
Nitrite 0.4 mg/l
Nitrate 40 mg/l
Phosphate 0.5 mg/l
Calcium 420 mg/l
Carbonate hardness 20 dKH
Copper 0.0 mg/l
bertoni
10/03/2006, 07:18 PM
20 dKH is still very high, but it's dropping, so that's good.
That level of nitrite is a bit odd for a tank that's been up that long. How much circulation does the tank have? You'd want at least 6000 lph total, maybe more.
How much krill is being fed? How big are the mysid cubes?
You could try waiting a bit and seeing how the Deltec does. They are supposed to be very good skimmers. Other than that, a refugium and a PhosBan reactor would be the long-term approaches that I'd try. That's a huge amount of phosphate.
Over the short term, I'd try a series of 20% water changes to try to get the nitrate and phosphate levels down.
thanks heaps for this guys.
i have 4500 l/h coming from the sump (one reason why it would be hard to have a refuge) one 1100 l/h power head and another 1000 l/h power head. this totals 6600 l/h. i have 2 or 3 dead spots.
the krill i feed are small and the frozen mysis shrimps are 10mm cubed.
would it be a bad idea to take all my rocks and fish out so i can catch my eel and do a 100% water change?
i do have room in my sump for a refuge but i have a lot of water passing though and all the algae and sand will get sucked though the pump because i dont have any buffels to stop this.
im uploading some images now to give you a rough idea.
hope this works
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m277/atty2035/DSC02797.jpg
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m277/atty2035/DSC02810.jpg
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m277/atty2035/DSC02813.jpg
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m277/atty2035/DSC02816.jpg
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m277/atty2035/DSC02817.jpg
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m277/atty2035/DSC02818.jpg
bertoni
10/03/2006, 08:46 PM
I wouldn't take out the rock or do a 100% water change, if possible. Either might cause enough stress to trigger various problems. Getting the eel out might be tough; that might require removing the rock.
I'd suggest reducing the feeding level for the moment. That's a large chunk of mysid. I'd probably try something more like half that, and work from there. I'd probably use the same volume for the krill. Adding a more varied fish food into the diet, like frozen Formula 1 or 2, would be a good idea, too, I think. Krill is quite concentrated, as far as nutrients, I think.
The dead spots are an issue, and I'd probably add another powerhead or so.
since i made my complete reef tank im thinking of remaking my sump and puting an refuge area and make more buffels. would a 38g refuge be a good size? i have been reading about the lighting issue and a 50 watt flood light seems to be what im heading for. Would it be bad for a refuge to have its volume turned over 35 times an hour?
thanks for the advice i will change there eating habits.
bertoni
10/03/2006, 11:04 PM
38g (160l or so) would be great. I think Chaetomorpha could handle the flow. More light might be useful, although 50 W might do the trick.
im going to start designing the new sump so i will show some pics when i have a rough idea of what to do. Since i do every thing on the cheap side i have noticed with my fresh water tanks that when i use a cheap lighting source with a low kelvin it realy lets algae grow and totaly out compeats the plants. Is this the same with salt water algae?
here it is and like i said its a rough idea so please tell me what you think and what i can do to im prove it.
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m277/atty2035/DSC02831.jpg
i have started on my new sump/refuge and its coming along nicely. here is a pic
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m277/atty2035/DSC02854.jpg
bertoni
10/05/2006, 12:30 PM
I'll take a good look at your plans tonight. Looks reasonable so far.
i have made the refuge and one buffel for the filter side. Im outting two in, should i put more?
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m277/atty2035/DSC02856.jpg
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m277/atty2035/DSC02857.jpg
bertoni
10/05/2006, 09:29 PM
I'd have another baffle on the refugium side, to make sure the macroalgae stay out of the pump. I'd also likely use a T joint in the return line from the tank to direct some water to the refugium. Maybe that's what you have planned.
i was thinking of using my protein skimmer to direct the water to the refugium. i could use a T piece but it would mean i would have 2250ltr/h. Would this be to much flow?
I have finished my sump/refuge and im very pleased with it. i will install it once the silicone has cured.
front. the left side is the refugium.
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m277/atty2035/DSC02861.jpg
back
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m277/atty2035/DSC02867.jpg
i have found two of these lights in my garage. they are 50w halogens
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m277/atty2035/DSC02869.jpg
bertoni
10/06/2006, 12:01 PM
I probably wouldn't try to use the protein skimmer as a pump. Maybe just put a ball valve on the line to the refugium so that you can dial it to the desired flow rate.
Looks good!
thanks.
What would be a good for filter media for my sump and over flow? When i feed my fish a little bit of food gets sucked down the over flow. Would i be able to use a filter media that allows for food to pass through but it also brakes down ammonia ect. i was thinking of chopping up bread crates or egg crates and then stacking them up.
bertoni
10/06/2006, 06:28 PM
I avoid filter media because it sometimes seems to cause higher nitrate levels in tanks, but a filter sock is a common technique. If you want a true filter, I guess bio-balls would be one answer.
oh and another thing do i need to buy algae for my refuge or can i just put my light on and just be patient?
bertoni
10/06/2006, 09:16 PM
You will almost certainly need to get a starter for a macroalga, unless there's a useful hitchhiker on the live rock. Chaetomorpha works well for me. Other people like Caulerpa, although it needs to be trimmed regularly or it can sporulate and dump nutrients into the tank.
i have been looking around at LFS and i haven't seen any macroalgae for sale. i asked one aquarium shop and they said they have only had Caulerpa and that was a while ago. Should i buy some live rock and see if i get lucky? i live near the ocean and i have seen various different algaes/seaweed. But these algaes are cold water species :(
bertoni
10/06/2006, 09:43 PM
Hmm, well, the coldwater algae might be adaptable, but I'd look around for a while and think carefully before taking that gamble. Sigh, I don't have any ideas at the moment.
i guess i can put a post up about WTB macroalgae in sydney australia. Are all tropical aglae's acceptable? I have brought a coral before with 2 or 3 strands of feather caulerpa (caulerpa sertulariodes). Will this type do the job?
bertoni
10/06/2006, 10:27 PM
Feather Caulerpa will be fine.
Randall_James
10/06/2006, 10:34 PM
lighting sounds pretty weak for such a large tank... I would think at least 3X150W MH to start. If I read this correct you have 1? The two 40W barely rate as nightlights :)
This tank would probably really like 3X250W MH That could have some pretty dramtic effects on algae
i have a 4 foot by 2 foot tank and a 200l sump which is being replaced. i am thinking of replacing my fluro's for a 135 watt compact VHO . The halide at 14k and the VHO at 10k and 2 18watt blue atinic
Randall_James
10/07/2006, 09:51 AM
so how about 2X250 14K MH and also add the actinics? I suppose I like the intensity of the MH but the blue tint of deep water
Vin7250
10/08/2006, 10:05 AM
man 135 watts of lighting for a big tank like that is NOT enough i have 192 watts on my 40 gallon and its very nice but it could be brighter....but i just got them yesterday and didnt have enough for MH but for a huge tank I would never just have a small amount of lighting.....thats a major issue
Randall_James
10/09/2006, 08:53 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8292333#post8292333 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bertoni
You will almost certainly need to get a starter for a macroalga, unless there's a useful hitchhiker on the live rock. Chaetomorpha works well for me. Other people like Caulerpa, although it needs to be trimmed regularly or it can sporulate and dump nutrients into the tank. I would suggest trimming Chaetomorpha as well. I have always had macro algae reach a critical mass where it quit thriving (no more nutrient uptake). I then trim back roughly 50% (nutrient export) and it takes off growing again.(More uptake)
what wattage do you have above the algae? i brought some feather caulerpa yesterday (three hand fulls), i hope it starts to grow.
bertoni
10/11/2006, 11:47 PM
I had 55 W and then 110 W PC lighting over a 20g tank and got lots of growth.
I agree that Caulerpa needs to be trimmed as well. Only by removing the alga from the tank do nutrients get exported. Chaetomorpha is just a bit safer in that it doesn't sporulate, at least not as easily.
Randall_James
10/12/2006, 11:26 AM
I have a 23W indoor/outdoor powersaver bulb. The last one I got was from Menards. They replace a conventional 100W floodlight... $8
finaly rigged up my sump/refuge and added some Caulerpa. Working great and the refuge is getting more attention than the display!
heres some pics
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m277/atty2035/DSC02915.jpg
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m277/atty2035/DSC02923.jpg
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m277/atty2035/DSC02924.jpg
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m277/atty2035/DSC02922.jpg
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m277/atty2035/DSC02921.jpg
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m277/atty2035/DSC02926.jpg
Randall_James
10/14/2006, 08:27 AM
I would take a look at the lighting with the 23W CF floodlights. They generate a ton less heat and run a lot cheaper that the halogen you have there.
im going to change it over in 2 month so the aglae can get a head start.
ill go have a look at my local lighting store to see what they can offer.
i have noticed the algae growth, its around 1 cm a day. Do you guys add co2 to increase the growth of the algae?
bertoni
10/14/2006, 07:36 PM
Some freshwater setups add CO2, but I haven't heard of saltwater people doing that. It should work, if the alga is carbon-limited, but you'd need to watch the pH carefully.
thinking of doing the sugar and yeast trick.
bertoni
10/15/2006, 01:15 PM
I'd just leave well enough alone. Good aeration should provide plenty of CO2.
After all this hard work i have achieved my goal, My nitrate is 10mg/l :dance: . And i have another nut case idea :wildone:, i want to cover up my in tank overflow with a thin sheet of slate covered with fiberglass/gavel mix and dried live rock, are these materials reef worthy?
Randall_James
10/20/2006, 09:11 AM
If you check out http://garf.org there are instructions for making your own liverock. The materials they use can be made into the "disguise" you are talking about.
You can also use fired ceramic materials (a lot easier to work with)
here's some new photos. I brought 30kg of live rock today from my lfs for $60 aussie dollars (normally $250) this is like $30 in the US. i brought 2 new corals that have opened up.
here is what my tank used 2 look like.
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m277/atty2035/DSC02946.jpg
new style
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m277/atty2035/tank2.jpg
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m277/atty2035/tank.jpg
some coral pics
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m277/atty2035/DSC02979.jpg
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m277/atty2035/coralzoas.jpg
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m277/atty2035/coral22.jpg
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m277/atty2035/DSC02972.jpg
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m277/atty2035/DSC02988.jpg
bertoni
10/25/2006, 12:51 PM
Sounds like progress!
yeh im loving it, i might be getting another 150watt halide next week and 25 softies. Im thinking of pushing my water flow to 25 times an hour, is this to much for softies? i really want to eliminate my dead spots.
bertoni
10/25/2006, 04:38 PM
Some soft corals might object to more flow, but I'd guess most of them will survive nicely. Got any specific species in mind?
Kanya Tree
Xenia
Zoos
star polyp's
frog spawns
flower pots
mushroom
leathers
got any other suggestions on corals, my nitrate is 15mg/l today is that to high?
bertoni
10/26/2006, 03:41 AM
Flower pot corals (Goniopora) tend not to do well, although careful target feed might help. Other than that, the list seems reasonable for moderate flow. The frogspawn (Euphyllia) won't be as good with high flow.
15 ppm nitrate might cause some problems with the stony corals, but soft corals won't care.
cool do you have any other soft corals in mind, i would like to get a big one thats green based, i cant remeber the name but i really like them. can mg/l be translatted to ppm?
Randall_James
10/26/2006, 06:59 AM
Nepthea coral is a soft green tree type coral. Although called "Rare" by some, I have found it to be quite easy to come by as it grows very easily. Some come in very vibrant greens (dayglow to be exact)
bertoni
10/26/2006, 12:49 PM
ppm and mg/L differ by about 2%, which is within the error range of our test kits, for for hobby purposes, they are the same. I type ppm because it's easier. :)
There are green morphs of a number of corals, so I'd just keep looking.
cool, im buying my new metal halide this monday. My 2 150 watt MH will have 14k, do you guys think thats a good choice in kelvin?
bertoni
10/26/2006, 03:49 PM
Each brand of bulb is different, but I thought the Hamilton 14,000 K bulbs were nice as far as looks.
With this amount of lighting can i have hard corals too?
Randall_James
10/27/2006, 07:52 AM
wouldnt 2X250 be a bit more appropriate on a 600L tank? I thought most of them were like 24" deep?
blackheart
10/27/2006, 09:25 AM
:D
blackheart
10/27/2006, 09:26 AM
you will be fine to have hard corals under this light as long as they are not on the bottom of the tank. I have been growing acros, pocillaporras, stylophora and hydnophora with the same light For quite sometime and they are all growing very well. Tank looks way better atty
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