Acceptable losses at LFS?

[cinematek]

I'm new to the hobby and in the process of researching and figuring out how to build my first tank.

As I visit various lfs from Petcos to dedicated sw places I feel like I ALWAYS see some dead fish. My gut tells me that if I see dead fish I should buy somewhere else, but I have yet to see a shop without at least a few casualties.

Is there a rule of thumb for the acceptable number of dead fish at a given lfs? I imagine that it is unavoidable to lose a few, but I don't know enough yet to know when "a few" becomes "too many".

What do you think?

[Travis L. Stevens]

I wouldn't be worried about how many are dead, but why is the body still in there and why did it die? If it died from a disease, chances are that there are others that are infected or really bad tank husbandry from the store owner. But if it died because of the stress of shipment or it was just one of those fish that wouldn't eat, then it wouldn't be so bad. That's something that isn't very avoidable. But if fish are left in the tanks, then I would call bad husbandry on the store. Not only should dead bodies be taken out immediately because of visual appeal to the customers, but it can cause untold havoc on the Nitrogen Cycle in the tank which could cause more to die. I can understand a store being super busy and have something die on them, but if it looks like it's been there for a while or there isn't any major business, then I would call a lousy businessman.

[cinematek]

I think you probably make a good point. Here's a couple of examples...

One dedicated LFS has probably 50 sw tanks or more. on one visit I think I saw 3 dead fish in their SW tanks and 3-4 dead fish in their FW tanks. But... they were very busy and very huge. It must take them a while to examine all the tanks for dead ones.

At a local Petco with about 6 SW tanks they had 6-8 dead fish. At least one per tank! While I was there a girl came around and scooped out all the dead ones. (One of them was a rather large lemon peel - strange to see such a large dead fish.)

But... none of the dead fish at either store had any visible disease or spots on their scales. They were just dead. Is this a product of fish stress?

[SDguy]

IMO/E it's usually very difficult to figure out why any one particular fish died without knowing it's history. I think you can learn much more about the establishment by looking at the living fish. Are they healthy, active alert? Are they flashing (regardless of actual visible spots)? Are they beating each other up? Are they skinny?

I agree, some loss is inevitable, but if the body looks like it's been there a while, then the store lacks something.

[johnnybravo234]

Shut petco down.. I used to work at one. The "fish specialist" had no clue what she was doing and would not take advice for anything. She "didnt believe" in protien skimming or uv sterilization (which the system had but she didnt know how or want to use). When she did water changes she would add salt directly to the system instead of mixing separately. 75% of the fish died within 24 hours of being introduced. Damsels and clowns did ok but tangs and gobies had no chance. If they didnt eat flake or freeze dried krill then they didnt eat because she wouldnt feed them anything else. I used to throw frozen brine shrimp and the frozen krill in there whenever I got a chance. She also kept a level of copper in the system all the time but never tested the levels. If they hire the right person things could be much better but the Store manager and petco couldnt care less. There was absolutely no excuse for what was going on in that store. (Southington, CT) Screw petco.. DO NOT EVER BUY AQUARIUM SUPPLIES AT PETCO!

[magdelan]

Any veiws on Petsmart?? I would never buy fish there but will buy filter carbon etc. from there due to it being cheaper.

[johnnybravo234]

Petsmart is just as incompetent but at least they have the decency to only carry salt water aquarium products and not leave the care of delicate sea animals to untrained employees. Their fresh water systems seem to be better than petcos. I dont usually see many dead/sick fish.

[Axume]

As dedicated fish enthusiasts, you should boycott all large chain stores. Not only do they out compete great local stores; they usually have little or no code of conduct when it comes to new fish. Regardless, we should always support our local fish stores as aquarists. Petcos and Petsmarts destroy local (knowledgable, and responsible) fish stores.
Do not buy any fish supplies from large chain pet stores!

[Drakis]

I used to work at Petsmart and the filter system that they had was pretty amazing, it had massive UV, 2 50 gallon drums of carbon, it used DI for water changes and topoff, a 8 feet tall fluidized bed. They even let me put a CO2 system on the plant tank so the plants would grow instead of die (but they removed it when I quit). They actually treated there employee's pretty well (this was awhile ago).

Don't buy anything from large chain pet stores? I think that large online stores have done far more damage to small LFS's than Petsmart has.

My local petco has started selling live rock and coral, and it was very sad! They had a couple tanks of rotting LPS's and softies.....

[RobsReefs]

yeah support the little man!

[Apocallypse]

Your gonna find dead fish in every LFS. For me while i was starting up my tank and going through the cycling phase i went around to all the fish stores in the San Francisco area and got to know all of them ( even the ones that didn't speak english... i listen carefully to what they say... and put 2 and 2 together ), trying to get a feeling for who the store owners where and how the stock fish ect... then i would visit the shops almost everyday to look at the fish and corals, again talk to the fish owners to asking the same questions over and over again to see if they actaully practice watch they preach.

I can probably name 2 good stores in San Francisco, another 2 good hearted stores but questionable stocking habits and several bad or questionable store.. and ONE definatly BAD BAD store .. unfortunatly would also be one of the biggest selections of fish and supplies ....even their supplies are shaddy in SF.


but to me that is only half the battle. Even after i get a fish i feel is good. I still, to the best of my ability acclimate it correctly. I feel if you not sure about fish your buying you should acclimate the fish in a QT tank. check its health and if you think its dying go back to the store you bought it and ask for another or your money back..move on to another LFS. Most will accomidate you to some degree.

[budjr8000]

yes, I work at a lfs and yall are all right the big guys are killing us. We have to mark down the markups jsut to be competative, and yet people still complain about it, There is just notihng we can do we cant buy in as big of bulk as they can so we suffer.Back to the main topic of the thred when we get fish they dont all travial well and some jsut dont ajust to the depresserastion going form deep ocean to shallow fish tank. so yes we do louse a lot of fish and it is depresing yet we try all we can. we feed live brine to the picky eaters, treat the systems and indiviguly. yet u can save them all. and yes expesoly on weekends the shop gets buisy and we dont get all the floters but if you ask we will gladly tell u how that fish has been doing in the shop and how long(even if it is ****y i would rathere it die on us then on you). so i gess it depens on the shop.
thanks, mike

P.S. i know i type bad.

[cinematek]

budjr8000 - it sounds like you take a good deal of pride in your fish store - good to know there's people like you out there.

Here's a question you might be in a good position to answer - Every now and then I see a fish in a lfs that looks like it's flopping back and forth a bit- like it's off balance or something. What is that a sign of? Is it a sick fish, or a dying fish, or is it just a new fish to the store that is adjusting? Or are there some fish that flop around?

[budjr8000]

well there are many factors i wouls say it is either a parisite or some thing liek the but it jsut could very well be that it is not yet adjusted to the system. i would first ask how long it has been at the store then if there are any parisites in the system that they are aware of. that depens on the type of fish and others factor so i can;t realy say sorry about that but not a good thing ether way if u see a fish like that and u jsut can live wiht out it quarintin it first or see if they will hold it for a few days for u.

[fewells]

There will be losses. However we (lfs owners) should be able to find out why a fish is dying or has died. Most of the time it is stress. I try to order from suppliers that are mac certified. Seeing dead fish is never good but, some fish will die. Some fish that reefers love looking at and keep just do not ship well.

As for boycotting a store, I say buy wherever you want. It is a country of the free. However, think before you buy, check your options. It is frustrating when someone buys fish or supplies from a box store or worse online and comes in with questions on how to heal the animals or how to use the equipment. I am happy to help most of the time because I want people to be successfull. But I know that the "old school" owners will not be very happy.

Please Support Your Local LFS.

[worlds under]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8368904#post8368904 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fewells
There will be losses. However we (lfs owners) should be able to find out why a fish is dying or has died. Most of the time it is stress. I try to order from suppliers that are mac certified. Seeing dead fish is never good but, some fish will die. Some fish that reefers love looking at and keep just do not ship well.

As for boycotting a store, I say buy wherever you want. It is a country of the free. However, think before you buy, check your options. It is frustrating when someone buys fish or supplies from a box store or worse online and comes in with questions on how to heal the animals or how to use the equipment. I am happy to help most of the time because I want people to be successfull. But I know that the "old school" owners will not be very happy.

Please Support Your Local LFS.

2nd that

[daven]

I spent a couple weekends going to every LFS in town. I settled on one store which was just a single guy who stated his store on a showstring. Why? Because I liked him, liked the way he treated me and liked the way he kept his fish.

He travels every thursday to get new fish. I always visit on Friday. Here's what I notice. Fish die. Which ones? Mostly ones he got Thursday. If they survive more than a day they they are good for weeks. Not many die but some always will. Its part of the way things work. Fish make many transits.

What is boils down to is - you gotta find someone you trust. Even then, research and go with your instinct.

[fewells]

You sound like a very smart person that understands the process. Thanks for supporting the little guy.

[cinematek]

I'd have to agree with Daven. From what I've seen so far, it seems like the "little guy" fish shops tend to be the better ones. There is a shop near my place that is the outcropping of one aquarist's passion for the hobby, and it is the cleanest, best stocked, healthiest looking store in town.

The bigger chain stores don't even closely compare.

[ALittleSalty]

Since relocating to the Muncie I have come to realize that a well stocked, well kept and personable Fish store is something that is a real desire for me. I originally in lived in Lafayette, home to a local store called Aquarium World. They had the best display tanks I have ever seen and there stock was always clean, dead fish were removed immediately (they had a staff of at least 5 or more at all times) and live stock was always top notch. They always offered great advice and offered different ways to acheive the same end result. Perhaps the one thing that made me really enjoy walking in through the front doors, was that they could remember what tank you had and some of the livestock you had purchased. Plus the owner usually there and he too was a walking book of knowledge. I too was tempted to order online a few times, but after looking at shipping costs, the need to be home when the package comes, and the uncertainty of the livestock arriving alive, I realized that the price was actually a little more to order online, and at least if i purchased it at the lfs I could bring it back in to see what happend. I would often spend my lunch breaks in the store just looking at the fish and watching the tanks.

So now that I am two hours away, where will I go?? After checking out some of the local shops, and looking at my options in Indianapolis, it looks like i will making the 4 hour round trip drive back to Lafayette to purhcase my livestock. Jon

[anarchtech]

I went to my LFS Sunday. I use to go there a lot but for some reason or another the 2 fish people quit and they have some terrible looking tanks, diseased fish and rancid corals. It was sad. Ick had run a muck in the fresh water tanks. The salt water ones were covered in algae.
30 more mins away are 2 beautiful fish stores with tons of good advise for a beginner like me. I took my girl friend with me and she was in awe.
I wish the one real close to me hadn't gone down hill so fast, 6 months maybe.

[LionfishFinatic]

I know of a couple of good stores near me but not many. the number one store that i love to go to is very small, very far out into the country and has lots of dedicated employees so not every LFS just hires because they need help. i have yet to see a dead fish there and they drip acclimate all of their fish. and yes the big ones are killing them. the most reliable stores are the small and self owned businesses is what i have come to expect. the other good store is fintastic. Fintastic is killing all the smaller companies and not even a Petsmart or a Petco will even carry SW fish due to competition with Fintastic and other big companies and also all the work and lack of knoweledge. back on topic.....yes every store has it's losses and i aggree it is mostly because of the trip to the LFS's. but some of it is just because of lack of knoweledge and they get sick or are bullied on buy fish in the tank that they were put in and die of stress.

[semiaverage711]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8529113#post8529113 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ALittleSalty
Since relocating to the Muncie I have come to realize that a well stocked, well kept and personable Fish store is something that is a real desire for me. I originally in lived in Lafayette, home to a local store called Aquarium World. They had the best display tanks I have ever seen and there stock was always clean, dead fish were removed immediately (they had a staff of at least 5 or more at all times) and live stock was always top notch. They always offered great advice and offered different ways to acheive the same end result. Perhaps the one thing that made me really enjoy walking in through the front doors, was that they could remember what tank you had and some of the livestock you had purchased. Plus the owner usually there and he too was a walking book of knowledge. I too was tempted to order online a few times, but after looking at shipping costs, the need to be home when the package comes, and the uncertainty of the livestock arriving alive, I realized that the price was actually a little more to order online, and at least if i purchased it at the lfs I could bring it back in to see what happend. I would often spend my lunch breaks in the store just looking at the fish and watching the tanks.

So now that I am two hours away, where will I go?? After checking out some of the local shops, and looking at my options in Indianapolis, it looks like i will making the 4 hour round trip drive back to Lafayette to purhcase my livestock. Jon

I agree. Aquarium World is wonderful. The tanks are awesome! And they do know alot. They have alot two! Everytime I go there, there is always new livestock. Nothing stays there too long!

[JamesJR]

Well, I used to work for what I think is an excellent fish store and even we had a few losses. A few losses wouldn't necessarily bother me. It is how the majority of the tanks look that is most important to me.
Sometimes things happen beyond the employees control like delayed flights, tears in the bags and improper packaging practices that don't have much of anything to do with the quality of the store or their abilities as hobbyists. But if they notice you looking at them they should stop you from buying them and tell you to try and get them when they are better.
That aside, a good store shouldn't have many losses. The store I used to work for had over 300 tanks and I remember having days where we didn't lose even 1 fish even after a shipment. sometimes it would be 10 or so fish but when you factor just how much we had that really isn't very much at all.

[gotboostedvr6]

james is right

[wds21921]

LOL this has been posted many many times over the last few years and it simply comes down to reasonable satisfaction by you.

No one likes losses, I dont' care if it's a big chain store OR your local mom and pop store (LFS). The effect is felt faster in a LFS but the end result is a dead animal and a lost sale. That's the business aspect like it or not. Petco losing one fish isn't going to close there doors but it's still a loss. Mom and pop losing one fish has a bigger impact, I agree.

Now choosing a store is relatively simple but is akin to shopping for a doctor (a sad truism these days).
Part of what sells me is customer service. Do they make a real effort to help me and answer my questions correctly or at least find out if they don't know? Are they willing to give me an honest deal and not simply size me up when I walk in the door? Are they or were they, once fish hobbyists also/still? Are they pleasant and treat customers like friends? Is the shop clean and tanks well maintained?
Your going to see dead fish no matter where you go. How long that dead fish remains in the tank to me is a big deal. That shows not only good business but pride in your store and respect in your customers eyes. Being busy is no excuse for not removing a dead animal, period. It takes seconds.

I've worked for 3 LFS and have a little experience. I'm not claiming to be an expert by any means.

There's a whole line of questions you can ask yourself or the store owner. If they meet your expectations then fine, if not find one who does.

I'm not wholeheartedly on the big chain bashing bandwagon because each store is an individual according to whoever is running it. I prefer to shop at LFS and support them mostly but I won't disregard a good deal at a local Chain if I see it.

The bottom line is it's my money and "I" will decide where and when I spend it.
The pros and cons for and against LFS and Chain Stores has been and will be hashed out for years to come.

I've debated everything from the moral and ethical aspects to the business and customer side. I agree that large chain stores in general hurt small businesses. At the same time while you avoid Petsmart, Petco, do you also boycott WalMart? Most people don't because it's a place where they can afford to shop. If you want to talk about morals and ethics do a little investigation of your own on WalMart and tell me they help America (ns).

The LFS is not going to completely disappear because of the large Chain stores. Yes, some will close because they cannot compete pricewise, but it's proven the large Chain stores CAN be beat because what they ALL lack is personal and GOOD customer service.

It's the old argument of buying a Japanese or an American car. Different merchandise but same principle. You support who you believe in or who you can afford to do business with or who gives you the best deal or. Many reasons that only YOU can decide. It's your money and your principles.

[thecichlidpleco]

The only part i will disagree on is that chain stores cannot compete with livestock. They mostly get little variety in tanks and when they do get a good number of species in, they die within a few days. I also worked at one, the supplier we ordered from was garbage, segrest farms is terrible. Fish always came in dead,too many to a bag, or mixed species that should not be together. I would hate to see the few lps in my area go out of business since they are the only reliable source for information. When I tell someone I want the two ocellaris, I dont want then to stare at me and need me to point to the tank so they can so, "oh the clownfish." If you do go to the chains to get supplies I guess that is fine, but realize what wds21921 said. Chain stores can get by without 1 persons money, a LPS may not.

[cinematek]

I just found another nice lfs near my place. I now have two lfs that I like and they seem to have one thing in common... clean floors. No, seriously. All of the other lfs have dirty floors, which probably says something about the amount of detail they pay attention to in their tanks.

These stores have the cleanest tanks and the healthiest looking fish. Not sure if there's a direct connection, but it made me think.

[vtrider]

I don't really buy any equipment from the LFS because I can get it for half price online. However,I like to support my (dolphin pet village) with most of my livestock,food and coral purchases. I just wish their equipment prices wew closer to online pricing. A $200 difference is huge to me,I can barely afford this hobby as it is

[Racso]

I used to manage a LFS. It was ridiculously awesome. It was truly designed for the hobbyist. We had over 200 FW tanks and over 75 SW tanks. Plus 16 display tanks that totaled over 3500 gallons. The whole store itself was just a little over 10,000 square feet. Anyway, we had about 15 to 20 different vendors we could order livestock from. Some were good, some bad. Generally we narrowed it down to the good ones and ordered from a select 4 or 5. I would say about 100 to 200 fish total would be dead between the day of and day after receiving fish (when you factor in that we ordered Danios in by the 100’s, its really not that much). But that was, say… 3 guppies, 5 danios, 4 white clouds, 6 neon tetras, 1 pleco, 4 blue damsels, a royal gramma... Etc, etc. You have to figure with that many tanks; we are BOUND to miss some.

Now with a small store, its harder to miss a fish if some is looking around real well. Find out when the store gets its shipments. If it is the day of or day after, expect some dead. If not, look at how dead the fish are. If they look like they are fresh, (just died that day, still have decent color, not really rotten, still has form) then oh well, not that bad. If the bodies are rotting, snails all over it, already half eaten, then I would pass. Another thing to look at is how many in each tank. Say you go in, and a bunch of neon tetras are floating at the top. But that’s it; nothing else in the whole store is dead. And again, they look “fresh,” then I wouldn’t worry too much. Those fish may just be crashing. But if you go in and there are 3 dead fish here, 2 there, 5 over there, and a whole tank full somewhere…. well, you know what to do.

[Racso]

Also, support your good LFS. The store I worked at closed because we were loosing too much money. Our employees were well trained (thus higher paid), so our prices were a little higher than the other stores around us. Generally, we competed great against other LFSs with animal care and overall appearance, however, big chains killed us merchandise wise.

One reason online is so much cheaper than brick and mortor is volume. Online sells the the whole country, if not, more. Your LFS only sells to the city. Thus, online buys direct from the manufactorers, where LFS have to go through distibutors, thus one more price increase. Also, online generally doesn't have to have too much knowledgeable staff. Yes, good customer service, but thats it. They don't need to worry about displays or making sure the store looks neat.

I don't work retail anymore, but I will still support my good LFSs. BTW, retail is HARSH. Odd hours, generally low pay, you have to deal with horrible customers.

[vtrider]

I really like dealing with foster smith for equipment

[thecichlidpleco]

Foster and smith do have great prices on equip, $40 for refractometer, <$30 for tub of salt(reef crystals)!

[Jesse-KT]

James is right also. But if I were you, I would pay more attention on what the other fish look like, not the dead ones.