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onehundred20
10/07/2006, 05:24 PM
Went BB about 6 months ago and have battle color loss in my corals.

Well all this time i thought my corals were loosing color cause of nitrates or phosphates, I never really considered flow a factor for some reason and put buying that equipment on hold till i got the nutrient problem fixed,

I figured my 20x turnover would be fine for now....

Just last week i decided to mod 2 of my 4 maxi 1200s, putting me at 50x turnover or so with my seio 1500...and what do you know less than a week later i have full polyp extention and now 2 weeks later they are about half way done getting their color back..every day i look at the tank there is more color:)

i just finally added some cheato to my fuge to help with the nitrates i still have but other than that everything is really happy now.

JJohn
10/07/2006, 05:27 PM
Hey, great news. I had a similar experience. I doubled what I thought was already high flow and in two weeks I saw a amazing difference. Things are still getting better (except now I have another issue). Anyway glad to hear the increased flow worked.

dots
10/07/2006, 09:49 PM
Yeah, flow is everything with these....thats the whole reason I went to BB tank....got tired of the sand blowing around.....so far love it......have experienced the fading also, but I am up to 67x turnover now and it has to due with nutrient load I think....thats why I am adding a remote DSB with macro algae soon.......or we could offset it with more fish to increase the load and possibly feed more, but I think a remote DSB will do the trick for me......

onehundred20
10/08/2006, 12:26 AM
i finally added some cheato to my fuge after a few months hoping it helps with my nitrates, i also plan to mod my other 2 mj 1200's which will help with keeping the system clean also.

J_Geisinger000
10/08/2006, 02:17 PM
Im thinking of adding a remote dsb to my 90 also to help with nitrate problems

I have about 73x turnover in my display

Lobster
10/08/2006, 11:39 PM
Doesnt remote DSB kill the point of having a BB tank in the first place?

Im also battling the color problems in my BB tank. I'm convinced I have no nutrient issues, but everything looks washed out tan. Not brown like a nutrient issue. I have 70x flow and dont think that is the problem. Not sure what it is. BB tanks are great in terms of controlling algae but so far I miss the great colors I had in my DSB tank. Ive tried everything at this point.

ScallopKing
10/09/2006, 12:13 AM
I was bb then added a remote sand bed, gravity fed. Helped color and pe a lot, I mean I only added 40lbs in another sump for a 180g and my nitrates went from 25-50 to 5. I was thinking about a seriously deep rdsb with no lights and flow only but I wanted a lot of sand, it should be that way to be effective imo. Just no way logistically to do it. Now I have sand back in the display and a remote sand bed too (for little critters, the pods are multiplying like mad in there).

dots
10/09/2006, 01:32 AM
Yeah I am going to try a remote DSB in the sump inside an insert that I can pull out for maintence thats deeper than average, because the footprint for the sump insert I designed isn't that big to due space limitations......As it stands I think it will be 6"w x 12"L x 6-8"Deep Sand for a 75g tank.....I am going to run a sock over the insert and pull out the large stuff, the stuff that gets through will feed the sandbed, so the sump stays clean and isn't a cause of nitrate from breakdown.....chaeto floating in the insert on a reverse cycle on the top of the insert, and then the cascades over the top, (heavy stuff stays to feed the DSB combined with lower flow to help it settle and give the chaeto more time to work), flows into the sump where the skimmer/phos reactor polish the water and return it to the display.....I really am excited to see how effiecient it will be in cleaning out the junk from the tank.........the key to this, or the engine as it may be called in getting it down there is alot of turnover stirring up the display that I have been upping lately.....

rutz81
10/09/2006, 12:17 PM
I am using a Remote DSB in one section of my sump.(about 5/6" deep--12"x12" area) I couldnever get my nitrates lower than 10/15, after about 3 months of having the sand there my nitrates are at 0. I figure I can change this out every 6 months or so...

For flow I have around 134x turnover, I believe flow is VERY important.

dots
10/09/2006, 01:25 PM
I am still trying to understand the whol color thing associated with having sand in the tank......even if my nitrates are low aready.....but due to sugar dosing and water changes.......I would like to away from that and go to the macro algae though

rutz81
10/09/2006, 01:36 PM
I think the sand add nutrients into your tank. It is very rare to see a super-low nutrient tank that is BB and still have deep colors. In those rare cases, those people feed very heavily and therefore skim very wet to remove that bad stuff right away.
In my case I am utilizes a combo. of both, I have 11 fish in my 75G, high bio-load(requires heavy feeding) and since I don't have a skimmer that will allow me to skim super wet, I have the remote DSB to remove the excess nitrates that I am left with.

Frankysreef
10/09/2006, 01:55 PM
I have 50x turnover in my tank, and I have a ssb... I have a bare spot... but I put a galaxea coral there, and it loves it.

xabo
10/09/2006, 04:53 PM
OK, dumb question.......... How do you calculate the tank's turnover rate?

dots
10/09/2006, 05:01 PM
Its all of the "movement" in your display......

Add up all you g.p.h. of all of your powerheads+(return pump-head)......and divide by the gallons of the display.........

kinda a way to describe how much "flow" you have in the display. Doesn't really mean much more than that.

For instance I have

2 @ 820
2 @ 1500
1 @ 900-300 head loss = 600

total=5240gph/75g = 69.86x

In my calcs from the previous post, I added more to the head loss and for loss of efficiency and rounded it to 67X......

dots
10/09/2006, 05:06 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8306356#post8306356 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rutz81
I think the sand add nutrients into your tank. It is very rare to see a super-low nutrient tank that is BB and still have deep colors. In those rare cases, those people feed very heavily and therefore skim very wet to remove that bad stuff right away.
In my case I am utilizes a combo. of both, I have 11 fish in my 75G, high bio-load(requires heavy feeding) and since I don't have a skimmer that will allow me to skim super wet, I have the remote DSB to remove the excess nitrates that I am left with.

Yeah I thought that was it myself....and thought it was a good thing that allowed me to add another fish to offset it.

xabo
10/09/2006, 05:16 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8307726#post8307726 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sacramentodots
Its all of the "movement" in your display......

Add up all you g.p.h. of all of your powerheads+(return pump-head)......and divide by the gallons of the display.........

kinda a way to describe how much "flow" you have in the display. Doesn't really mean much more than that.

For instance I have

2 @ 820
2 @ 1500
1 @ 900-300 head loss = 600

total=5240gph/75g = 69.86x

In my calcs from the previous post, I added more to the head loss and for loss of efficiency and rounded it to 67X......

So........... using this formula I have:

2X Tunze 6100= 6350
1x Sequence Barracuda - 4' Head = 3780
Total= 10130/210 Gals. = 49X

Is this correct?

rutz81
10/09/2006, 05:16 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8307762#post8307762 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sacramentodots
Yeah I thought that was it myself....and thought it was a good thing that allowed me to add another fish to offset it.
Just be careful adding more fish, because if you aren't exporting the waste in someway you mau start to get some algae showing up. And, I think it's more than just having the extra fish, I think it's the fact that you should adjust your feeding accordingly, meaning you'd now be feeding more because of the addition.

xabo
10/09/2006, 05:26 PM
^^^^^^^^

musicsmaker
10/09/2006, 09:43 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8306356#post8306356 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rutz81
It is very rare to see a super-low nutrient tank that is BB and still have deep colors. Are you saying that BB tanks typically have less color due to their low nutrients?

onehundred20
10/09/2006, 10:12 PM
my sump is a 55 gallon, about 1/3 is my fuge...its height is about 15 inches, if I were to put a remote dsb in there how deep should i make it and would that be sufficient for a 120?

and i would be using it to keep my nitrates down etc.

are you guys using the dsb to keep down the nutrients or add them lol?

Lobster
10/09/2006, 11:23 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8309815#post8309815 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by musicsmaker
Are you saying that BB tanks typically have less color due to their low nutrients?

The idea of BB tanks is not sterility, they still need plenty of nutrients. I learned that lesson the hard way. Personally, I'm not impressed with the colors in my BB system at all, and I'm at a total loss as to how I can correct it. The BB systems I've seen with good color can be counted on one hand unfortunately.

dots
10/09/2006, 11:25 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8307830#post8307830 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by xabo
So........... using this formula I have:

2X Tunze 6100= 6350
1x Sequence Barracuda - 4' Head = 3780
Total= 10130/210 Gals. = 49X

Is this correct?

I don't know the numbers on your pumps to double check the math,.....but procedure looks right....

Waxxiemann
10/09/2006, 11:34 PM
I was under the impression that a BB tank has less (or at least more controllable) nutrient levels and therefore the corals would show better color in those tanks.

Lobster
10/10/2006, 12:18 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8310371#post8310371 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Waxxiemann
I was under the impression that a BB tank has less (or at least more controllable) nutrient levels and therefore the corals would show better color in those tanks.

BB tanks are extremely controllable. Ive never had an easier tank to control in terms of N and P. Color is a total mystery to me though compared to my previous tanks (DSBs). I'm getting "tan" coral. Not brown, nor bleached -- just really washed out. I'm working on it though!

The problem is there is a lot of misinformation about BB methodology, and the real experts seem hard to find. Part of the problem is old stereotypes... relics of the BB vs DSB wars that are still around (such as BB should be sterile). Then more confusion comes from people that run a "sandless" tank but then have remote DSBs or refugiums or other things that dont really fit the BB concept. Its just a lot to sort through.

My favorite BB tank is Clkwrk's, and I follow his thread (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=783025). Unfortunately I have yet to identify what he does right that I do wrong.

Pyrrhus
10/10/2006, 03:56 AM
For starters you are a few thousand GPH shy on flow to be at the kind of turnover that Clkwrk has.

rutz81
10/10/2006, 06:21 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8310001#post8310001 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by onehundred20
my sump is a 55 gallon, about 1/3 is my fuge...its height is about 15 inches, if I were to put a remote dsb in there how deep should i make it and would that be sufficient for a 120?

and i would be using it to keep my nitrates down etc.

are you guys using the dsb to keep down the nutrients or add them lol?
Mine is setup the same way with 1/3 of my sump being my Remote DSB, I have 40 lbs. of sand in there, it comes to about 4-5". Just remember if you are using new sand, it'll take a good 3 months for the sand to activate and become "live". I'd also reccomend a filter sock of some sort to remove the large particle matter before it settles into the sand.

rutz81
10/10/2006, 06:39 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8310485#post8310485 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Lobster
The problem is there is a lot of misinformation about BB methodology, and the real experts seem hard to find. Part of the problem is old stereotypes... relics of the BB vs DSB wars that are still around (such as BB should be sterile). Then more confusion comes from people that run a "sandless" tank but then have remote DSBs or refugiums or other things that dont really fit the BB concept. Its just a lot to sort through.


I wouldn't label it "misinformation". I think it is possible "fixes" to problems,(like lowering nitrates for example). Rather than going out and buying a huge beckett style skimmer which would enable you to remove waste the "correct" way by extreme wet skimming; according to BB methodology, there may be another way to accomplish this, like a remote DSB that is kept clean and changed out before it can do the damage of an "old" sand bed by releasing phosphates and such. It comes back to the old saying, "There is more than one way to skin a cat".
I am not saying that everyone with color problem should run out and dump sand in their sump. All I can say is that this MAY be the reason that I have good color in my tank, along with other things I follow.

CeeGee
10/10/2006, 06:53 AM
all I know is that fishdoc11 is running BB and I have seen the tank in person and he has exceptional color. His pix don't do it justice.

Lobster
10/10/2006, 10:29 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8310989#post8310989 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rutz81
I wouldn't label it "misinformation". I think it is possible "fixes" to problems,(like lowering nitrates for example). Rather than going out and buying a huge beckett style skimmer which would enable you to remove waste the "correct" way by extreme wet skimming; according to BB methodology, there may be another way to accomplish this, like a remote DSB that is kept clean and changed out before it can do the damage of an "old" sand bed by releasing phosphates and such. It comes back to the old saying, "There is more than one way to skin a cat".
I am not saying that everyone with color problem should run out and dump sand in their sump. All I can say is that this MAY be the reason that I have good color in my tank, along with other things I follow.

Oh I didnt mean to belittle your methods at all. I was just saying that as far as I can tell, I'm doing BB as I understand it should be done (I did buy the big skimmer), and my color stinks. I dont have a nitrate problem.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8310714#post8310714 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pyrrhus
For starters you are a few thousand GPH shy on flow to be at the kind of turnover that Clkwrk has.

2000GPH in a 30 gallon display seems like decent flow, but if enough people honestly believe it will help, I will buy a Tunze 6100 and put it in there today! I'll try anything at this point because I want to decide if I like BB before I setup my 300G.

rutz81
10/10/2006, 10:47 AM
Lobster: Reading your tanks specs, you did buy an awesome skimmer, I also have a Deltec, but, I know on mine there is a limit on how wet we can skim. Where as a beckett skimmer can skim almost a green tea and thats what we're looking for.
In terms of your color, I don't think the sand bed is only good for removing nitrates, it also adds an "x" factor that seems to bring out those deeper colors.

Frankysreef
10/10/2006, 11:39 AM
I have great colors and a ssb, but I run a very productive refugium that has live mysis, pods, worms etc.... It is also an sps frag tank...

The best colors I have seen come from 20k mixed with 6500k, but here is my advice to you...

1. Each tank is different
2. What works for someone else may not work for you...
3. Find the reefers secrets that you want to copy...

Go over to thier house, see what they are doing right...

Make sure your chemistry is in balance... run a calcium reactor, or kalk reactor for stability..

Add an auto top offf system for stability... ( this keeps your salinity extremely stable )VERY IMPORTANT if you have a lot of evap

Make sure you have at least 40-50x turnover...

Feed your tank....

Strain your frozen foods ( mysis ) before adding to tank

Have some mechanical export ( filter socks are good )

Run carbon 24/7

Have good skimmers ( I just recently put both my skimmers on a timer to only skim at night )heat issues, and the fact that my mechanical export works pretty good, so my skimmers dont pull that much....

Also the more corals you have the more they will filter the water also.....

Of course these points are all my opinion... I set up my reef tank long before I found reef central...

F

javajaws
10/10/2006, 10:11 PM
The biological and mechanical filtering properties of a modern BB tank absolutely REQUIRE that you constantly provide some sort of nutrient import....and much more than you may think. They are THAT efficient at removing stuff. Otherwise, your tank will become a sterile tank of saltwater. I know this because I ran my tank for several months with only a couple of fish and once or twice a week feedings. Once my rock was totally and completely cured (3-4 months beyond the cooking phase), my SPS frags started to fade away. I would never get any algae growth on my glass...just a bacterial film.

I've now got a school of 6 large anthias, a puple tang, and a few other small fish in my 110g tank and feed 2 times a day (4 cubes of mysis daily + cyclopeeze, GP, oyster eggs, pellets, etc.). Still no measurable nitrate or phosphate, but the colors in my SPS have never looked better and not a single one is brown. I've got great polyp extension in all SPS unlike before. A couple SPS which were faded to white have come back and now have nice blue tips. I've also got really nice growth now. I clean the glass every 3-4 days of very minor algae accumulation (just small specks of the stuff really).

If you suffer from faded SPS in your BB tank, then I'd say add some fish and increase your feedings. Keep doing so until you have some measurable nitrate/phosphate then back off just a little.

If you have "brown" SPS then you probably have sufficient or too many nutrients and may possibly have other issues as well.

Lobster
10/10/2006, 11:09 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8312527#post8312527 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Frankysreef
here is my advice to you...

Thanks, all great info. I've got all that covered except I do not strain frozen foods like mysis.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8316849#post8316849 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by javajaws
If you suffer from faded SPS in your BB tank, then I'd say add some fish and increase your feedings. Keep doing so until you have some measurable nitrate/phosphate then back off just a little.

If you have "brown" SPS then you probably have sufficient or too many nutrients and may possibly have other issues as well.

Nice tank, those anthias are fantastic! Have any recent full-tank shots for that thread of yours? :D

I've got a small yellow tang, a chalk bass, two clowns, and a blue chromis in there, so I think I'm good on fish but perhaps not! I've never had measurable phosphate in my tank, and only after I added the fish did I see nitrogen sources register and then never again. I think I am feeding enough, but perhaps I will start running GFO so that I can increase the amount and feel a bit safer phosphate-wise.

Actually, pyrrhus really got me thinking about my flow. The GPH is a large number, but I'm beginning to wonder if I really have sufficient movement in there. I totally changed the flow pattern in the tank tonight, so I should get an idea over the next couple days if its an issue. I might seriously order a Tunze 6100 and lay all doubts to rest there.

Lots of good info in this thread, thanks for the ideas everybody!

Pyrrhus
10/10/2006, 11:15 PM
Yeah, I'm kinda a freak about flow. I run 50x in my 20l for just fish and a couple of LPS.

I actually think that 2 Darts on a 140 (tank I am working on) might not be enough flow for what I want to do. Just like you said, It's a large number but the turnover isn't that great.

Waxxiemann
10/10/2006, 11:17 PM
I run a DSB on my 90 but I want to switch to BB for various reasons and I'm learning a lot from this thread.

Good stuff.

javajaws
10/11/2006, 08:32 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8317146#post8317146 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Lobster
Thanks, all great info. I've got all that covered except I do not strain frozen foods like mysis.



Nice tank, those anthias are fantastic! Have any recent full-tank shots for that thread of yours? :D

I've got a small yellow tang, a chalk bass, two clowns, and a blue chromis in there, so I think I'm good on fish but perhaps not! I've never had measurable phosphate in my tank, and only after I added the fish did I see nitrogen sources register and then never again. I think I am feeding enough, but perhaps I will start running GFO so that I can increase the amount and feel a bit safer phosphate-wise.

Actually, pyrrhus really got me thinking about my flow. The GPH is a large number, but I'm beginning to wonder if I really have sufficient movement in there. I totally changed the flow pattern in the tank tonight, so I should get an idea over the next couple days if its an issue. I might seriously order a Tunze 6100 and lay all doubts to rest there.

Lots of good info in this thread, thanks for the ideas everybody!

You've got an APF600 on a 30g tank? I'm telling you...your water is too clean! Do you have some pictures of these SPS you're having problems with? How is their polyp extension? How long is your photoperiod? Try increasing your feedings to 3 times a day for 2 weeks and see what happens. Its alot cheaper than messing with your flow and if it doesn't work its easily reversible. Don't be afraid of minor phosphates...I've seen an SPS tank with measurable phosphates that looks way better than mine does...i know because I tested his water from the frags I got.

BTW, no full tank pics recently. But subscribe to my thread and I'll try to get some out in the next week or so.

rutz81
10/11/2006, 09:02 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8318440#post8318440 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by javajaws
You've got an APF600 on a 30g tank? I'm telling you...your water is too clean! Do you have some pictures of these SPS you're having problems with? How is their polyp extension? How long is your photoperiod? Try increasing your feedings to 3 times a day for 2 weeks and see what happens. Its alot cheaper than messing with your flow and if it doesn't work its easily reversible. Don't be afraid of minor phosphates...I've seen an SPS tank with measurable phosphates that looks way better than mine does...i know because I tested his water from the frags I got.

BTW, no full tank pics recently. But subscribe to my thread and I'll try to get some out in the next week or so.

Agreed. I have an MCE600 on my 75G(100G) total volume, you are way overskimming. Defintely post some pics and I'm sure someone here will be able to help some more.

Frankysreef
10/11/2006, 11:56 AM
Straining your food is a great way to reduce pollutants...You'd be surprised how much junk is in there.

onehundred20
10/11/2006, 01:14 PM
would a remote dsb for my 120 lower my nitrates? i have a pretty large and deep fuge.

rutz81
10/11/2006, 01:41 PM
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=595109

check it out, it'll defintely work for a 120.

musicsmaker
10/11/2006, 01:47 PM
I was just about to chime in on the DSB in a bucket. Should be plenty of reading on that subject in Anthony Calfos forum.

onehundred20
10/11/2006, 02:14 PM
sorry rutz missed you last post, might have to give that a try.

onehundred20
10/11/2006, 02:15 PM
i have about 35 or so pounds left from when i went barebottom, its argonite though, would this be ok to use if i washed it good, or should i get southdown or something

onehundred20
10/11/2006, 02:19 PM
here is a picture of the fuge, you cant see all of it cause of the wall but you get the idea

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y184/RichiesGrl23/DSC01306.jpg

this part was my gf's idea, i like it...

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y184/RichiesGrl23/DSC01307.jpg

Lobster
10/11/2006, 05:20 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8318440#post8318440 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by javajaws
You've got an APF600 on a 30g tank? I'm telling you...your water is too clean! Do you have some pictures of these SPS you're having problems with? How is their polyp extension? How long is your photoperiod? Try increasing your feedings to 3 times a day for 2 weeks and see what happens. Its alot cheaper than messing with your flow and if it doesn't work its easily reversible. Don't be afraid of minor phosphates...I've seen an SPS tank with measurable phosphates that looks way better than mine does...i know because I tested his water from the frags I got.


Could be. Perhaps I should only run the skimmer a few hours a day so the filth has more "hang time"? The tank really is clean, but not barren. There is some film algae and coralline growing -- not a lot though. The growth and poly extension is actually good. They are encrusting very well.

Below are a few shots of some frags I bought with either the parent or the frag prior to going into my tank. Sorry the white balance is note fantastic on these, but otherwise they are unaltered.

This guy is growing fast, and has completely covered the plug in two months, now with new branches coming off the base...
http://i.somethingawful.com/radium/images/reef/sadcoral1.jpg

Anything green in my tank turns tan with just faint flourescent highlights, this is a perfect example. Digis also grow slowly for me! Caps, acros, and everything else is growing fast though (weird)...
http://i.somethingawful.com/radium/images/reef/sadcoral2.jpg

Here's another frag that is thriving other than the poor color...
http://i.somethingawful.com/radium/images/reef/sadcoral3.jpg

Any ideas? Maybe I need more flow, but I've definitely gotten better colors in other tanks with much less flow, so I'm confused.

Frankysreef
10/11/2006, 05:29 PM
20k + 6500k supplementation can give great color. 10k may give higher growth but less color.

jackson6745
10/11/2006, 05:52 PM
Lobster, shorten your photoperiod and feed the tank more frozen food.

Neptune777
10/11/2006, 06:08 PM
I have found that the following contribute to less than spectacular colors:

1) Warm water temps......keep em' cooler and the colors will pop! I would say a temp range between 74-76 is ideal. Many of our corals come from waters that do not get 80+ degrees....

2) What temp bulbs are you using? 10k's and lower will generally give you dull or brown colors. I have 20ks on all day and supplement with 10k's for 3-4hrs at mid day. Also, how often do you swap them out?

3) High P and N will cause browning

4) Flow....FLOW....FLOW that is random and turbulent will please them..

5) Red Bugs and any other parasite will stress the corals and deter peak colors.....

6) Stop moving them around.....my corals really show their true colors if you keep them in one place and stop rearranging your aquascape.....they adjust to the light angles and intensity every time you move them.

7) That's all I can think of for now.....

Lobster
10/11/2006, 07:06 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8322126#post8322126 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jackson6745
Lobster, shorten your photoperiod and feed the tank more frozen food.

I'm already at 3 hours on the halides and 10 on actinics. I've been running that way for two weeks now and did see improvement. Think its still too much?

I'll try to feed more. Currently I'm feeding whatever the fish will consume so that no excess is left in the tank. If I feed more than that, its getting blown away and skimmed out, which I thought is correct (??). I stay pretty busy, but I'll try to start feeding 2+ times a day. Do I need more fish? Maybe that would be the best way to increase the amount of nutrients I can pack into the tank. A couple anthias maybe?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8322211#post8322211 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
I have found that the following contribute to less than spectacular colors:

1) Warm water temps......keep em' cooler and the colors will pop! I would say a temp range between 74-76 is ideal. Many of our corals come from waters that do not get 80+ degrees....

2) What temp bulbs are you using? 10k's and lower will generally give you dull or brown colors. I have 20ks on all day and supplement with 10k's for 3-4hrs at mid day. Also, how often do you swap them out?

3) High P and N will cause browning

4) Flow....FLOW....FLOW that is random and turbulent will please them..

5) Red Bugs and any other parasite will stress the corals and deter peak colors.....

6) Stop moving them around.....my corals really show their true colors if you keep them in one place and stop rearranging your aquascape.....they adjust to the light angles and intensity every time you move them.

7) That's all I can think of for now.....

Lots of great info!

1) My temp is kept between 80-81 by an AQJr. This is the most stable point I can keep it, should be ok?

2) I have a 150W Reeflux 10K in there now, about two weeks old. I've thought about changing to a 20K bulb and replacing one of my PC actinics with a daylight bulb. Any thoughts on that? Not sure if I'd have enough PAR at 150W there for 20K.

3) 99% sure that P and N are not the issue. All of my rock is on eggcrate racks... you can look through one side of the tank out the other. A powerhead on a wavemaker sweeps detritus out from under there.

4) I was pretty confident in my flow, but I'm seriously considering buying a Tunze 6100 and a single controller. Maybe I'll shoot a short video to give an idea of what my water movement is like if that would help?

5) I'm very sure I'm free of parasites.

6) I'm done aquascaping, but I am guilty of moving things trying to get them color up some. I'll knock that off.

Thanks so much for the suggestions so far everybody!!

Lobster
10/11/2006, 07:24 PM
Also Ill go ahead and mention what I feed here. Once a day, I feed about 1/2 cube of brine shrimp, 1/2 cube of mysis, 1/2 cube of chopped formula2, about 3 postage stamps worth of nori, 1/2 cube of cyclopeeze.

I also add a small amount of 5-100 micron golden pearls soaked in tank water for 10 mins and dumped in. I saw melev say a salifert test kit spoon-worth is enough for a 55G tank, so I use about half that. It was interesting, the 2nd day after feeding GP I got an explosion of bacterial film, and after that an explosion of copepods. Things seemed to even out now as consumers grew to take care of the bacterial bloom, so I think that's a good thing.

onehundred20
10/11/2006, 08:50 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8320758#post8320758 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by onehundred20
i have about 35 or so pounds left from when i went barebottom, its argonite though, would this be ok to use if i washed it good, or should i get southdown or something

anyone know?

Lobster
10/11/2006, 11:08 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8323422#post8323422 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by onehundred20
anyone know?

Id read that remote DSB calfo thread. Im guessing the crushed coral would not have the same surface area as sand would and would trap more funk -- dont know if it would be the same. Im not sure though. :D

Neptune777
10/12/2006, 06:05 PM
Lobster.....

I would seriously consider dropping the temp to 76 if you can. Trust me......you will notice a difference in time.

dots
10/12/2006, 08:10 PM
Lobster, to top off all of that in addition I notice you are using the 150's, which I had a problem with browning with until I switched to the 250's and mine colored up.....mine seem to be a tad faded, but not to your extent.

I think someone said it the best that the remote DSB may add that x factor........

Serioussnaps
10/16/2006, 12:24 PM
If you add a DSB...IMO you are not BB. Being BB in the display but having sand in a sump is defeating the whole idea. Might as well just put sand in the display if you ask me.

I would feed DT's phyto and oyster eggs as your BB philosophy allows to pull this stuff out FAST. Turn your skimmer off for a few hours when you do so. Dont just "feed the tank"....feed stuff that your acros can actually eat...like the oyster eggs...i noticed significant color improvement in a rescue i bought from the LFS 6 weeks ago...it still is a little faded and browned but a brilliant green is coming out from feeding.

I wouldnt add a 6100 to a 30 G...a 6000 will do the trick. 6100 in a 30 G tank is like dropping a grenade in a gopher hole.

i think one other thing is missing here........PATIENCE

rutz81
10/16/2006, 12:45 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8351524#post8351524 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Serioussnaps
If you add a DSB...IMO you are not BB. Being BB in the display but having sand in a sump is defeating the whole idea. Might as well just put sand in the display if you ask me.



Yes, you are correct that it makes it not a "true" BB, but, the idea is not to keep a perfect BB tank, it is to find a method that works to establishhave a nice looking reef. And adding sand in a remote area enables something that a regular DSB is not capable of, removing the sand when it becomes a problem. You can simply empty a section of a sump, or change the sand in a bucket a lot easier than trying to siphon out a display tank.

rutz81
10/16/2006, 12:47 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8351524#post8351524 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Serioussnaps
If you add a DSB...IMO you are not BB. Being BB in the display but having sand in a sump is defeating the whole idea. Might as well just put sand in the display if you ask me.



Yes, you are correct that it makes it not a "true" BB, but, the idea is not to keep a perfect BB tank, it is to find a method that works to establish a nice,colorful reef. And adding sand in a remote area enables something that a regular DSB is not capable of, removing the sand when it becomes a problem. You can simply empty a section of a sump, or change the sand in a bucket a lot easier than trying to siphon out a display tank.
I just don't think it is more important to label yourself a true BB than it is to have a beautiful reef.

Frankysreef
10/16/2006, 01:06 PM
Something else to remember that there is no ONE WAY to do a reef tank... I have a SSB in my tank and 3 inches of sand in my fuge...

You have to find out what works for you and run with it...

Keep a logbook, and try different things...
I did this and this happend...etc...

There is no magic to color.... the older the tanks get the more nutrient free they become, especially when the benthic invertebrates get established...

This is easier to do with a fuge.

I have a purple monti digi, that used to be brown with purple tips... Now the whole thing just turned purple! It is at the bottom of my tank too....

I rarely have algae anymore except for that red/green scum around my returns and overflows...

I even turned off one of my skimmers the other day...( pump broke ) so I am just running an ev 180 with a mag 9.5 24./7.

Everything changes all the time...

Patience .. logbook.. trying everything...

FUGE is a great help for colors. 20k + 6500 k supplementation seem to give the best colors.

No advice should be written in stone, there is 20+ different ways to do anything in this hobby....

Also take all advice with a grain of salt, ask to see a reefers tank before you jump into something they say that could be expensive, or just wrong.

Good luck

onehundred20
10/16/2006, 01:38 PM
I agree, alot is trial and error...there is no "Official BB method" just do what works for you, if you want a fuge have a fuge!