How hard are marine tanks really?

[ggenz]

Ok, I have a question...

In your opinion, how much harder are marine tanks(FOWLR) than freshwater tanks(community,planted) and...

...could the hobby of keeping marine tanks be taught to 7th and 8th grade boys?


I know, its an odd question but I'd like to hear what your thoughts/opinions are.

All comments are welcome, thank you.

[creep]

In my experience, saltwater tanks require much more maintnance then freshwater tanks. As for teaching 7th and 8th grade boys. I think it can be done, but they will quickly lose interest, and you will be responsible for the weekly water chages, daily top offs, and monthly cleanings. But with that put aside, I wouldn't trade my tank for anything in the world.

[theatrus]

Hardest to easiest:

FW Planted > SPS Reef > Soft reef > FOWLR > FO > FW "fish"

But once its going, reefs are amazingly self-maintaining.

[TKByrnes]

with the right setup. they are easy. try to skimp and they are your worst nightmare! Trust me I have tried to skimp! now i have it right.

[theatrus]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8309488#post8309488 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TKByrnes
with the right setup. they are easy. try to skimp and they are your worst nightmare! Trust me I have tried to skimp! now i have it right.

I agree x100. Reefs have a ton of equipment. If you have good quality equipment which is working and setup right, its very little work.

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8309438#post8309438 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by theatrus
Hardest to easiest:

FW Planted > SPS Reef > Soft reef > FOWLR > FO > FW "fish"

But once its going, reefs are amazingly self-maintaining.

I agree 100%. The only thing I would add is discus in between soft reef and FOWLR simply because of the extra attention to more water parameters than regular FO tanks, and the delicate nature, at least IME, of these fish.

[sjfishguy]

I tried a 10g amazon and after replacing fish every week, I am sticking with my "difficult" SPS tank. Guess I just know so much more about reefs, it made FW a pain in my ***. No live rock, had to change cartridges, replace stupid $2 fish all the time. That tank is back to a saltwater species tank!

[garvondavis14]

lol

[ACBlinky]

When I worked at a LFS I used to have customers that were afraid to try SW because they thought it would be so much more difficult. I used to tell them that IMO it's not really harder, but it does involve a different way of thinking about your tank. I think there may be more to learn initially, but the actual work involved isn't much more than FW.

[garvondavis14]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

oh yeah, $

[Victoly]

Well I dont know about all the expensive equipment. I do recommend it though. I am currently running a 46 gallon bow. My equipment? 240 watt MH light. and 2 maxijet 600 powerheads. Ohh...and a heater that almost never comes on b/c of the lights.

My inhabitants are 2 onyx clowns, and a psych. mandarin.

I have SPS (monti cap, birds nest, green acro, blue acro, and another i'm not sure the name)

LPS (Frogspawn, Torch Corals)

Zoa's, Ricordea, Green Hairys, Blue Shrooms, Green Sinularia, 3 Toadstool Leathers, Green star polyps, tons of xenia and 3 clams.

I'm using a 3" deep sand bed and about 100lbs of live rock. The more I think about it, I'm regretting the DSB if I upgrade. I love the sand bed but if I upgrade to a 120 I'm afraid of nitrate issues.

Anyway... I don't think all of the equipment is neccessary. It makes it easier to maintain but it's not mandatory IMO. I'm far from an expert FYI. I can only say I've been extremely patient. I waited about 4 mos. before adding any livestock, and 2 yrs. before any SPS. Do your boys have the patience to wait, wait, and wait some more?

BTW... I use tap water to mix and top off. I do a 10% water change about once a month, and top off in the main tank a gallon a day from the bathroom sink.

I've been "lucky" for 2 years so far. I would like to get a drilled setup with a sump, refuge, and a skimmer. I'm just sorta going with the philosophy if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Cheers

[650-IS350]

if a simple fish only... cheap and easy..

fullout reef, corals, top of the line equipment.... ( EXPENSIVE ) and can become real headache

[Sk8r]

You can teach a great deal with a small reef: I would suggest going with a self-contained unit...and be prepared to own it once your project is done, out of your own pocket. You don't even want to think of justifying a skimmer to a school budget officer: I'd rather explain it to a horde of 8th graders on a sugar high.

You can teach the science behind, for instance, the skimmer; and why flow matters; and what's in the tests for alk, cal, mg, and why they work. You can teach methodical process, like keeping a log. You can teach biocycles, and why live rock works, and how a beach is like a skimmer, and about the condition of the world's reefs...you could do a whole science and fluids course with the tank. But you have to maintain it, you have to top it off, and you have to keep it when the school turns the heat down for Christmas vacation to save money. There are a lot of hazards, and the school will also question any highpowered electronics as probably overloading the 1920's wiring with which many schools are blessed...
a lot to consider, for sure.

[ggenz]

Thanks for all of the very good comments, i would love to hear more advice/opinions.

[HDAlien]

For the kids aspect I say it would depend on the kid(s)? I know there are some young reefers on here with tanks in their rooms and parents who may or may not understand.

As for it being harder, yes, IMHO, a SW tank or reef demands your daily attention if you want it to be successful. Oh, and as others have mentioned the $$$ to do it right or the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ you will spend until you finally do it right :)

HDAlien

[MCary]

FW planted, Discus, then SPS reef huh? What the heck am I thinking? Here's my tanks...

Slightly planted, I think it counts:

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b223/mwcary/NewImage6.jpg

Discus:

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b223/mwcary/DSCF0476.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b223/mwcary/untitled112.jpg

SPS Reef:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a226/mwcary_1959/DSCF0753.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a226/mwcary_1959/DSCF0749.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a226/mwcary_1959/DSCF0414.jpg

I must like challenges.

Mike

[MCary]

As for being hard..That depends. Farming is hard if you use a sythe and pull a plow behind a horse. But with the right modern equipment is just taking a ride.

I automate everything I can. I check water once a month , clean the skimmer once a week and feed the fish daily. Thats about it. There's some semi-annual and yearly maintenance also, changing bulbs and RO membranes etc. Takes a couple hours.

[ggenz]

Any other thoughts?

[Salty Brother]

I was in 8th grade when I started my 29gal, but I had some help starting it off from my brother, it can be done, I mean I have definetly gotten sucked into it, and unfortuntly have no more money ;). But I do enjoy it and wouldnt trade anything for it.

[godoggo]

I set-up a 35 gal freshwater tank at my daughters school 4 years ago.

After all this time, teaching, training, showing how everything works - I am still soley respinsible for the care and up-keep of the tank.

Be prepared for this to happen to you -

Luckly, I didn't set-up a reef tank that requires tons more effort.

BTW, what are you going to do with the tank over summer break?

I house all the fw fish at my home over the summer, but leave the tank cycling at the school - while making several trips to do routine maintenance.

Good Luck!

[ReefBuilderNJ]

MUCH HARDER AND MUCH MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE

[bigcdc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8309438#post8309438 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by theatrus
Hardest to easiest:

FW Planted > SPS Reef > Soft reef > FOWLR > FO > FW "fish"

But once its going, reefs are amazingly self-maintaining.

I don't agree with this but you have to take everything with a grain of salt, I've had a FW planted tank and it was the easiest thing I've ever done, way easier than salt. I'm sure you could get some difficult plants and they require a lot of work but if you get easy ones, then the tank practically takes care of its self. This could be said with salt too, get something easy and don't have to really do anything to it. But with my tank, I changed the water in it like once a month, just kept it topped off and feed the fish and never lost fish.


Chris

[ggenz]

So do you think it would be a lot harder to teach 7th and 8th graders about the hobby with a FOWLR system than with something like a fw planted or fw community?

[bigcdc]

It’s a hard question to answer because it can be looked at it from so many angles. The two biggest that come to mind are cost, maintenance if those are an issue then I would go with freshwater, but I also think of things like saltwater usually has much more interesting fish plants and corals, so a SW might hold there interest much longer.

I guess a question I have is; what is the main objective you are trying to teach these kids, the relationship between plants, animals, and bacteria; or more of an enjoyment factor and teaching them how to run their own setup?

Chris C

[ggenz]

Really, id say both,
-we are trying to get them interested in the hobby(how to run a setup, how much fun it is),
-we are trying to liven up a classroom, and
-lastly, it should be educational, so we should be able to explain all of the different biological processes and the organism's relationships.

The school wants the setup to be started by students and run by students. A few of the teachers there also have tanks though, so they can help.

We are thinking FOWLR because that can have cool fish, it costs a little less and it isn't as tedious as a reef.

[mr pink floyd]

never done FW, but i think SW is easy, im running a mixed reef(mostly SPS and zoas) all have good coloring and good growth, but i have to admit, with school back again, and practice every day after school, i have gone downhill a little bit on my husbandry, some sps are losing their colors a little, but thats about it, nothing a little TLC cant solve for after the season

id say go for it, i started with my 29 FOWLR over 2 years ago, and it quickly went form softie-sps reef, you can tell when you are ready for a change IMO

[barjam]

The internet (and RC in particular) makes this easy in my opinion.

But not cheap.

[ggenz]

Anyone else?

[Apocallypse]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8322560#post8322560 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ggenz
Really, id say both,
-we are trying to get them interested in the hobby(how to run a setup, how much fun it is),
-we are trying to liven up a classroom, and
-lastly, it should be educational, so we should be able to explain all of the different biological processes and the organism's relationships.

The school wants the setup to be started by students and run by students. A few of the teachers there also have tanks though, so they can help.

We are thinking FOWLR because that can have cool fish, it costs a little less and it isn't as tedious as a reef.


I would think from an educational point of view teaching 7th and 8th graders how to keep and maintain a saltwater reef would be benificial.

If you think about all the positives that come out of teaching a reef tank.

from the the :
nitrogen cycle to simulating a natural enviroment in a contain aquarium. Different methods to accomplish this

fish
corals

Understanding of our reefs and how delicate they are.

balances in nature and how everything in a reef is needed to meet a certain equalibrium.

i can go on.

---ohh and maintance...ya all kids need to learn to some degree .. if they can't clean up their damn room, why not try teaching them by maintaining a saltwater tank or reef.

this can go on and on.


7th and 8th graders are not stupid, immature maybe but they are more then capable of learning reef systems.

heck you might be doing the world a favor by educating them now. they might respect what they learn later on.

so for me its a resonding yes.....

[acroreef123]

I was in 7th grade when I started my first tank( a 29g reef) and am 16 now. Refering to the subject of teaching the kids how to maintain it, I really dont think there is a definite answer to your question. Its like asking "is it possible to keep coral with this light" its way too vauge, all kids are going to be different. but from my experience if you can get them interested in it the SW aquarium hobby is not one that they will likely out-grow.

acroree123

[Apocallypse]

I should apologies, i might have jump the gun with my response. And it's an idea i've been tossing around in my head for my daughters school.

It should not be base around the hobby per say and every aspect of it. You and many other people are right you cannot force a hobby on anybody especially a classroom of junior high students.

but

from an educational stand point. showing them how to setup a saltwater aquarium and maintain it would very benifical.

This would require that who ever is teaching the students have a firm grasp of saltwater tanks or reef tanks, it is up to this person to know specific details about how a aquarium works.

Students do not need to know how a skimmer in full details... venturi vs needle wheel or spray injection ect.. If you where to tell them what a skimmer does and what it is trying to mimic in nature this would be benifical.

showing them how to setup a aquarium correctly and how the nitrogen cycle works and having the students maintain it. Even give them an oppertunity to try and select the type of fish or corals to put in the tank. Again the teacher will have to explain what is approriate and not for a specific setup of course. but also explain why they can and cannot do it without going overboard in details.

So in short its not about a "hobby" is about education.. and its fun or can be.

saltwater fish/Reefing is also not as hard as some believe, but it does require a great deal of studying and exploring.

Education though the hobby saltwater tanking is what i believe the auther of this thread is trying to get forth.

I'm actaully planning something similar i'm currently working on setting up two tanks.

a student display tank and and summer tank

the summer tank would be a full tank setup that the fish and inverts and corals can live during the summer. This tank would be maintained my myself or a responisble teacher.

The student display tank would be build by the students and maintained by the students. this would include setting up the tank, run though the cycling process, testing water quality so on and so forth. When this is accomplished fish would go from the summer tank to the student display tank where the students would help maintain it.

what i'm trying to figure out are corals, and inverts and properly transfer them from one tank to another and back at the end of the year. the student display tank would be broken back down and prepared for the next year.

the the other thing is cost.

anyway thats my two cents.

[lllosingit]

I've had aquariums since I was about eight years old, I stuck with fresh water for about 20yrs because I was always told how hard and expensive saltwater was.
That all changed when I went to buy a 120 gallon tank that had been setup as a fish only saltwater tank, It was a dry setup but everything I needed came with it including all pumps, powerheads, skimmer,200lbs of dry base rock and 2 buckets of salt.
To make a long story short I got a few books and set everything up and never looked back. I never found it to be any harder than my freshwater setups and the payoff was tenfold.
There is just so much more life to saltwater than fresh.
I remember staying up for hours looking at all the new life after I got the "Package" from Tampa Bay saltwater to seed my tank after it had cycled.
I've always been on a very tight budget and my first setup costs less than some people spend on a skimmer alone.
I bought a few frags and later traded other reefers to get a variety.


If you are paying out of your own pocket just look in the local paper and online (I have a local forum here on RC You migh to?) for someone selling out or upgrading. You can save a considerable amount if you do your homework so you know what your buying and what it's worth.

P.S. If you really want to keep them interested consider buying the package from Tampa Bay Saltwater (http://www.tampabaysaltwater.com/) , The variety of life contained will keep then busy for hours.
They are a sponsor here on RC just take a few minutes or a few hours =-) to read up on it at the Tampa Bay Saltwater forum (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=213)

[lllosingit]

I was just looking in the TBS forum and ran across a member that is a Middle school teacher "who better to talk to LOL"
Here is a link to the user profileHere is a link to the user profifile (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=45407)

[MyCatsDrool]

I think that it is comparing apples and oranges. One isn't harder than the other, they are just different. Completely different environments with completely different needs.

If you are trying to accurately replicate an environment as well as mother nature, it is difficult either way. A correctly done SW tank can be as challenging as a correctly done FW tank.

It depends on your goal. If I really wanted to keep a FW betta in it's healthiest, most accurate environment, it would be difficult, as I would have to get the right plants (rice plants), the right soil, the right ph and lighting, the right mix of all of that, and make the rice grow, the seasons change, the right murkiness of the water.

Same goes for keeping a clownfish. I have to have the right balances for them too to keep them at thier best.

Some animals (unfortunately) are hardier than others, thus more easily kept in less than perfect, or correct, conditions. Just like any other animal.

The best thing to do is research, and do your best to make your animal as healthy as possible and comfortable as possible.

[DrBegalke]

The start up is harder, but not that much so... just a few more things to test for (Ca/alk) and determine how much to add.

Once the tank is established, I think it is pretty similar. It is definately more expensive!

I don't see why it couldn't be taught to middle school kids.

[cristhiam]

Not hard at all, if you master to keep Discus happy for years then you are ready for a salt water :). It's funny to think back, I started with golfish like 20 years ago, then planted, then went to african cichlids and finally Discus for some years. IMO I keep it simple in my reef now the only addition is kalk and water changes every 2 weeks (I try) :) and Home Depot bulbs :) and of course more money but if you are into Discus they are not any cheaper :)
55G
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~pinatas/fulltank003.jpg
125G
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~pinatas/sidetank.jpg

[Salty Brother]

ive seen that tank before and all I have to say is HOLY XEINA!

[mfp4073]

I agree with some of the others. Plant tanks can be difficult if you choose really odd plants, but basic stuff is really easy. MUCH more easy than sw if you ask me.

[Cellenzweig]

ive seen that tank before and all I have to say is HOLY XEINA! LMAO! That's exactly what went through my head right before I scrolled down and saw your post.

[apache73]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8321448#post8321448 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bigcdc
I don't agree with this but you have to take everything with a grain of salt, I've had a FW planted tank and it was the easiest thing I've ever done, way easier than salt. I'm sure you could get some difficult plants and they require a lot of work but if you get easy ones, then the tank practically takes care of its self. This could be said with salt too, get something easy and don't have to really do anything to it. But with my tank, I changed the water in it like once a month, just kept it topped off and feed the fish and never lost fish.


Chris

Your planted tank must have been either a jungle or sparsley planted. IMO, fw Amano or Dutch style planted tanks are very work intensive. Very rewarding, but a ton of work. Getting the chemistry right (photo periods and bulb types, ferts, bioload, allelopathy between plants, CO2 amounts) with a heavily planted, varied plant species tank is a chore. Did I mention the labor intensive pruning?

OTOH, non-pressurized CO2, low light, low ferts, planted tanks are easy to keep.

G

[allen00se]

Well as said before, it all depends on what type of set up you have, I have a 46 gallon bow front. Two tangs, a pair of clowns, pair of damsels, gbta and a sebae anemone, two shrimp, and various, sps and lps. When I first started this tank I was testing every other day, and doing weekly water changes, but now that I have a refuge with a dsb, I havent done a water change in prob 6 months, I havent run my skimmer in almost two, and everything in my tank is thriving, I even tested my water the other day for the first time in a couple months and there are zero nitrates....
Now im not going to assume that this will last forever but its just proof that you dont have to be overwhelmed with maintenance...

[Cubman777]

Here's the bottom line on how difficult it is to keep a marine aquarium:
IT IS AS HARD AS YOU WANT TO MAKE IT. There are countless challenges available to the hobbyist. It doesnt have to be hard. see Cristhiam. But it can definately be as difficult as you want it to or let it become.
The evidence is in THIS website, Reef Cental. Look around the forums. Nearly every thread is "Can you help me with this? Can you help me with that?" If it were not difficult, this would not be the way it is.
I could go on forever with this reply, but I'll let it go. You get the idea I'm sure.

[ggenz]

Hey thanks for even more thoughts.

It's definately something for me to think about now.

[MyCatsDrool]

like i said, it is apples and oranges.

[ReefEze]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8309385#post8309385 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ggenz
...could the hobby of keeping marine tanks be taught to 7th and 8th grade boys?

I got my first tank when I was in 7th grade, had my first reef tank with coral up and running in 8th grade

[ReefEze]

Apocallypse -- I think you are underestimating the intellect of truely curious 7th or 8th graders. When I began in 7/8th grade, I was so interested in the hobby that I devoured books, and I knew all about reef aquariums. So much so that one of my fathers friends, a longtime reefkeeper, began asking me for advice.

The truest thing is that you can not force reefkeeping on anyone. But if they do become interested in it, I see no reason why intelligent middle graders can't participate just as well as older reefers.

[Apocallypse]

reefEze, might want to read the thread again...

i'm on the 7th and 8th graders side :)

was my whole arguement.. over written but , my primary arguement.

[ggenz]

It sounds like it might work.

[ReefEze]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8340366#post8340366 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Apocallypse
reefEze, might want to read the thread again...

i'm on the 7th and 8th graders side :)

was my whole arguement.. over written but , my primary arguement.

Yeah, I ment that by questioning their capacity to understand what is going on completely (i.e. I think that 7th and 8th graders have the ability to learn just as completely and fully about reefkeeping as do more mature people)

But yes, we're both on the same side. Nice :thumbsup:

:lol:

[hgbarwick]

My son who is i the 8th grade has kept a tank all through middle shcool. It is the 12 gallon aquapod reef. He has great intrest in the hobby and helps me out a lot with my tank. he is getting ready to set up a 3 gallon pico to keep also.

[naru]

Let's see, my current tank has few fish (clowns and demsels) with some soft corals. For the past five years or so it's been going w/out a problem.

Last week I started a tank for my daughter with some guppies.
All the guppies promptly died.

So in my experience, guppies are more difficult then SW tank :D

I shouldn't have bought the fish at Petsmart!

[ADA33]

Thats so funny. I swear that my planted aquarium is harder to take care of then my reef tank.