Advice Needed

[Mental1]

I am feeling a bit discouraged with my tank. My nitrates seems to be staying at about 25 ppm -- it's not as good as 10 but not as bad as 25 but somewhere in the middle. I have changed my feeding habits again -- now I am only going to feed every other day. For fish I have about a five inch Foxface and a five inch Sailfin Tang and about a 1.5 inch Naked Clownfish. I have a good sized clean up crew and an elusive Mantis. In my sump I have a big crab and another mantis. I have tube coral, gorgonians, and two other kinds of corals that I cannot identify and nor can anyone else it seems. The coral seems unhappy but is staying alive. When I feed -- I feed a teaspoon phytolive, about a 1/8 x 1/4 x 1/4 inch of mysis shrimp, a pinch of meat pellets and a pinch of flakes. Once a week I add an extremely small aount of oyster eggs and some orange stuff (sorry I forget the name) for the coral. When I am not putting that in I add two drops of either vitamins, Extreme Garlic or Selecon. I do a 25% water change weekly. I have looked into a fuge and it seems I need something that will hold at least 14 gallons to have effect which means I either have to build one or figure out how to put another tank next to the 72 gallon. I thought the fuge water was not supposed to go into the sump because it is not supposed to go through the skimmer or pumps so the ideal is to gravity feed back into the main tank. My husband and I were thinking about making one but cannot find plans. Don't understand the need for baffles in a fuge. Thought we could make one with a seperate stand or maybe use one of my twn gallon tanks but don't know how to plumb it -- so stuck on what to do about a fuge. Tried catching the mantis but killed some tube coral in the process -- didn't get the manits. So can someone cheer me up? Can't get the mantis or the nitrates ... sigh.:confused:

[BORNTOFLY]

It sounds like you do not have enough filtration. Do you by chance have Bio balls in your sump. Many people say the Balls cause elivated nitrates. Also what size is your skimmer. Most people here say to get a skimmer rated for at least twice your tank size. I have a 90g in process of cycling and I am about to upgrade to a skimmer rated for 250g. I would stay away from chemical fixes for nitrates as the only real solution is to track down what is causing it.

I know how frustrating it can be as I have only been able to spend about 200 a month on my tank since we purchased it. When you are buying live rock skimmers and lights it takes a couple of months to even get to the point that you can add fish. My tank has had water in it for 3 months but I was just able to get the live rock in it 2 weeks ago. Anyway stick with it you will find the solution.

Rick

[Avi]

Don't be discouraged because there's always a way to resolve just about any problem a reef poses. Some problems are a little bit more annoying than others...for example, the Gorilla Crab that has destroyed all my beautiful zoanthids colonies and has avoided all my efforts to trap it....but if you stick with it, maybe spend some money that you don't want to spend, you'll resolve the problem.

As for the nitrates...There can be all kinds of reasons for nitrates to be elevated in a reef. One is that you're source water may be high in nitrates, so if you use tap water, test it and if it is high in nitrates, convert to RO water. But...the sump and refugium issue. I see that you have a 20-gallon sump and I assume that it has no seperate sections that are divided by baffles, since you say that you don't understand the reason for baffles in a "fuge." Well, the baffles are there for a number of reasons...by having seperate sections in a sump, you have more control over what you use the sump for. The baffles are also often very effective in preventing micro-bubbles, which can be a very annoying problem, from reaching your sump's return pump section.

So, since you have a hang-on skimmer, I think you could easily modify your 20-gallon sump to include a refugium, but this would be based on the assumption that your sump is a fish tank and not a rubber-maid container.

There are "ideal" ways to set up a refugium withing a sump. But though this might be conceptually ideal, it doesn't mean that you'd be wasting your time setting up a refugium that isn't conceptually ideal. If you want to find plans for converting your sump to include a refugium, go here and look around for ideas"

www.melevsreef.com

Once you understand the concepts, post here and I'm certain you'd get all the help you'd need to fabricate the configuration that would work for you.

I had elevated nitrates, going as high as 50ppm. I converted my sump to include a refugium and it helped a lot, getting the nitrates to a consistent 10ppm. But they wouldn't go down to zero so I bought a sulfur denitrifier and so far, since it's only about three weeks now, it seems to be clearing up the problem. That's another consideration you can make.

There are lots of threads about catching mantis shrimp in RC's forums. Some people report success in catching them with traps, like the X-terminator that's widely available at fish supply vendors. Others actually take out all of the rock in their reefs until they find the mantis and then discard them or put the mantis in their sumps. You'll catch the one in your reef will some ingenuity.

So, don't be discouraged because there are ways to overcome any reef-related problem.

[Mental1]

My sump is a 20 gallon long glass aquarium and it does have baffles in it -- I just don't understand the need for baffles in a fuge. I have an EV120 protein skimmer with a mag7. I used to have a mag5 but a guy at the LFS said he put a mag7 on his ev120 when I was talking about my nitrate problems. I have had problems with microbubbles since doing it. BTW -- do microbubbles cause problems are are they just unsightly? I do not have bioballs. I have three sections in my sump, first one has the ev120 w/mage7, second one has about 10lbs of live sand and 7 lbs of live rock. I think the flow is too strong to put a fuge here, there is not a lot of room, and it would go through the mag7 retrun pump which is in the 3rd chamber. I have already caught two mantis -- the third is very elusive. I have used a trap and tried to grab him but sightings are rare. I don't know what rock he lives in. We have to build a better mantis trap. I guess I am discouraged because I don't know what else to do. I cannot afford to buy a bigger skimmer right now -- I just bought this one 3 months ago. The parts for making a 14 gallon acrylic fuge wouldn't be that expensive. I have gone to melevs reef but couldn't see plans that would work for my tank. I have searched and read a lot but actual details relevant for my situation are tough to find. I have 4 inches of clearance behind the tank and this baby is not moving. So I could build one 4 inches deep and then the width and height of the tank but it would require it's own table as I am not stupid enough to hang 14 gallons of water and other fun stuff off the tank. Then I thought we could buy a very slow small pump and put a line on it so it would pump tank water into the bottom of the fuge. Then the fuge would gravity feed back into the main tank but I don't know how to make that lip from a sheet of acrylic. My remora hang on is in the 30 gallon tank which has about 30 lbs of live rock loaded with aptasia, a hawkfish, a huge gorilla crab and a marine beta with nitrates of 50 ppm. I do 50% water changes once a week on that tank. I need to find new homes for the hawkfish, the beta and the crab so I can get this tank is good enough shape to operate as a QT. Also so I can get a peppermint shrimp to eat the aiptasia. I just can't seem to get to a place where the nitrates are stabilized. And that mantis has so far killed at least two of my big red hermit crabs, one of my emerald crabs and lord knows what else. I also have a very small gorilla left in there that I need to catch. So far he hasn't caused a lot of damage but I know he will grow.

[rick s]

I'm no expert, but here's my thoughts:

* Is the level of nitrates the main thing that is bothering you? In general, as long as nitrates are under about 40, the fish will be fine. 25 for corals is certainly not ideal, but I've never seen a study that says we must keep them under 25 to keep corals. My Nitrates were at 40 in my tank for the entire first year. Everything did and looked great. None of my corals grew, but they looked great.

* With that said: I think you're putting too much "stuff" in the water. Uneaten "stuff" leads to nitrates. Stop all the phyto, pellets, flakes, eggs, garlic, selcon, vitamins, and orange stuff. For 3 fish, that 1/4 x 1/4 x 1/8" piece of Mysis, once a day, is all they need, at least for a good long time. Hardly anybody underfeeds their fish. They won't starve. And just like people, we shouldn't "sympathy" feed. Sympathy feeding is for the feeder, not the feedee (?).

* Do you have any live rock in the tank? Is it truely live rock or was it dead rock?

* You do not necessarily have to have a 14 gallon fuge. If you want to try a fuge, Any fuge is be better than no fuge. I have a $5, Walmart, 4 gallon Sterilite container next to my fuge (I have a 90 gallon tank). It is slightly higher than the rim of my sump. A Maxijet pumps water into it. I drilled a hole and installed a bulkhead on the top side. The water drains out that bulkhead back into my sump. I have Chaeto in the fuge with a light. That helps remove nitrates.

* Again, there are "ideal" ways to connect a fuge. But, a fuge connected (basically) any way, is better than no fuge. . . All my tank water dumps into my sump. From there, separate pumps send the water to the PS, fuge, etc.

* Baffles are used in an attempt to keep air bubbles out of the display tank. Some say they work. Mine really didn't stop them. I found other ways to stop them. Air bubbles do irritate corals and can be bad for the fish. But I think they're talking a lot of bubbles.

* Is your skimmer pulling out skimmate? I don't feel the brand or type matters much at all. The only thing that really matters for a basic tank is: Is it pulling out skimmate?

* What type of water are you using? Tap? RO? etc.

Sorry to be so blunt and to the point, but I only have a few minutes and wanted to give you a few things to think about.

[Mental1]

Thank you Rick --
But what about feeding the coral? That's what the other stuff is for -- I thought they needed feeding too. Plus my tang has whole in the head -- trying to get some nutrients into him.
My live rock is very alive and there is 95lbs of it from TBS (or mantis rock as my LFS calls it). I have about a 3 to 4 inch sand bed that was mostly dry sand but seeded with about 20lbs of live sand.
My skimmer is set to pull out more dry stuff versus wet. I flooded my house when I first set it up with all of the wet gunk that it pulled. I have the gate valve wide open and the air valve about half open. I have a hard time with the air valve as it seems to be either very wet or dry -- it doesn't allow an adjustment that lets a little bit of wet to be pulled out. Could it have gotten dirty? Maybe I need to take the skimmer apart? I clean the collection cup twice a week. I had a thin filter bag on the water coming from the tank but the mantis tore holes in it so I put on a thicker bag.
I am using RO/DI water that tested zero for nitrates. I can't afford a TDS meter at this point.
I use Tropic Marin salt. Specific garvity is 1.025 or 1.25 whatever ...
Ammonia is zero. Water temp is 78 to 80 degrees -- try to keep it down as I read that the water is better oxygenated at lower temps. Last time I tested calcium levels -- forget the right name -- it was 8.

I did not feel that you were blunt at all -- not need to apologize. I am feeling very discouraged at this point -- I need all the help I can get.

We were thinking of putting a tall tank next to the tank to use as a fuge but got stopped because we would have to pump water from the fuge into the display tank which I understand would hurt the stuff going into the tank -- mangle pods or something. Not only that but how do you allow for disasters if you using a pump versus gravity feed. We thought we could put a line from the mag7 retrun pump to put water into the fuge but just concerend about how to manage it if you use a pump to return to the main tank. Is there such a thing as a diaphram pump that can be used in tanks? That would cause less damage to pods I would think...

[Mental1]

Forgot to answer one of Rick's questions -- yes the nitrates are really bothering me because of the coral -- I don't want it to die. And the mantis bugs me too -- he's killing members of my clean up crew. I can't remove all the rock to find him as the coral will freak. I have read everything on them and how to catch them. I have successfully caught two -- the third is just extremely elusive. And every day I hear him smashing in the tank ... and I measure my nitrates and they are too high.

[rick s]

Most corals do not require feeding. Yet, some do. If a coral is known to require feeding, they usually require direct feeding. By Tube Coral do you mean a feather duster (in a tube) or a Tubastraea (Sun Coral) or something else? A Tubastraea does require (close to) daily, direct feeding, or it will recede and die. Feather dusters do not need feeding. Gorgonians are difficult to keep for even seasoned reef keepers. Yet others have success with them without doing a single thing for them.

Most of the other stuff you’re adding are still being debated as to whether they are useful, necessary, or just wasting your money. Since you are trying to get your nitrates down, I would stop everything other than the mysis. And I would feed that very sparingly. Try that for awhile and see if it has any effect. Rotting food causes nitrates.

I don’t know anything about the hole-in-the-head. Sorry. Can’t help you with that one.

Other than trying not to flood the house :) , don’t strive to get dry skimmate. The jury is still out as to whether dry is better than wet. What is for sure is: Getting skimmate is much better than getting little or no skimmate. If you are emptying your collection cup twice a week I’d say you are doing well.

R/O DI water is great as long as the filters/carbon/etc are changed as needed.

Tropic Marin salt is fine.

On the fuge: Wherever and however you set it up is fine. The easiest way would be to have the input to the fuge controlled. If you are supplying water to it from the display tank, have a valve on that line so only as much water can go into the fuge as can freely drain out of the fuge (by an overflow/bulkhead). If you use a separate pump to pump sump water into the fuge, have a valve on it so. . . . .
There is absolutely nothing wrong with taking water from the sump to supply the fuge, and then let the fuge drain back into the sump. The “waters” will mix. Again, not ideal, but fine. Better than nothing. . .

I would say the mantis has to go. Even if you have to pull out the rock to get him. You might as well do it now while you’re having tank issues rather than getting everything resolved and doing well, and then having to tear the tank apart to get him anyway.

Hope this helps.

[Mental1]

Hole in the head is caused by poor water quality and poor nutrition -- my old tank was not great and I did not know what I was doing. I still don't but I have a bit more knowledge now. Anyway -- the vitamins and garlic were to get him healed.

If you go to this link http://homepage.mac.com/sherrimalouf/PhotoAlbum11.html you can see my set-up and if you also go the the link marked aquarium you can see two of the types of coral I have. I don't know what they need. The stuff I am calling tube coral looks similar Sun Coral -- small mounds with tubes but it is brown and gets very fuzzy -- not feather dusters. Can I add the stuff everyone calls chaeto to the center portion of my sump or does it require a slow flow of water? My gate valve is wide open to the section. Also -- will the mantis and crab eat chaeto?

I am only getting the dry gunk because I cannot seem to calibrate the air valve to get a little wet -- I either get dry or very wet/house flooding gunk. Again -- could something be wrong with the skimmer?

The RO/DI has only been gioing a couple of months -- plan on replacing filters soon.

I know the mantis has to go -- just afraid that I will tear it apart and not find him. I do not plan on adding anything esle to the tank until he is caught. I paid for but have not gotten the other half of my cleanup crew because I was afraid I would find another mantis .. and I did.

I promise the whining will be over soon -- will be travelling for a few weeks with little time to post. Just having a relaxing slow day and trying to figure out how to fix stuff.

[bertoni]

I would vary the diet of the fish more. Formula 1 and 2, the frozen variety, will have a broader range of nutrients. This thread has a lot of information on feeding:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=176530

Feeding the corals is a fine idea, but some work on increasing nutrient export might help. A refugium is a good idea, in my opinion. The baffles in the refugium also can help keep macroalgae out of the pump. They're not necessary; my refugium doesn't have baffles, but they can help.

This article discusses nitrate problems. All the ideas are worth considering:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/august2003/chem.htm

How much flow does the tank have?

Also, I meant to ask about the exact names of all the products being dosed into the tank.

[Vin7250]

YOUR TANK IS ONLY 2 MONTHS OLD AND YOU HAVE ALL OF THAT STUFF IN IT????? GIVE THE BENIFICIAL BACTERIA COLONIES IN THE LS AND LR TIME TO MULTIPLY AND ACTUALLY BECOME AFFECTIVE.......STOP ADDING STUFF TO IT RIGHT NOW AND JUST WAIT....CONTINUE WITH YOUR WATER CHANGES AND KEEP TESTING......BTW WAS THE ROCK 100% CURED WHEN ADDED??????? ITS ONLY 2 MONTHS OLD IT NEEDS TIME

[Mental1]

The history is that I had a 55 gallon octagonal tank with the tang, foxface, marine beta and spotted hawkfish. The seams of the tank were deteriorating. I had live rock in it covered with aiptasia and a cheap Petco hangon skimmer with a powerhead. I hired a guy to help and followed his advice for everything -- how much live rock/coral rock to buy, live sand, clean-up crew, etc. I found this forum after it was done and he got his money and well ... Anyway, I put the fish in a 30 gallon tank so had to get the foxface and tang out as the 30 gallon was way overloaded -- still is! And it has a big gorilla crab in it too. So the only thing I purchased independantly was the clown fish. I am not adding anything else -- it is three months old. (-:

The products I have been using are: Phyto-feast Live, New Life Spectrum, Nutrifin Max Flake, Kent Garlic Xtreme, V3 Triple Strength Vitamins, Selcon, Argent Cyclop-Eeze, Sally's Mysis Shrimp, and DT's Natural Reef Diet Oyster Eggs. Most of this in extremely small quantities and NOT ALL At ONCE. Just so you know I am not a TOTAL moron.

I have read many articles on nitrates, I have changed feeding habits twice now and I am not sure about the skimmer. Can anyone tell me if the skimmer should be able to adjust better -- the gate valve is wide open and the air valve is tough to adjust -- I seem to be able to get dry gunk -- then I open the air valve a very small amount and I get tons of wet ...

I don't know how to figure out the flow of the tank. I understand there is a place here for formulas????

Must go to sleep -- have to catch a 5:45 am flight to NYC for the day -- got to work to pay for the tanks, kids, horses, dogs, birds, kitty .... g'night .. keep the help coming!

[bertoni]

Well, the Seio pumps should produce enough flow for that tank, so let's not worry about that.

If the tank was in bad shape when you got it, I would guess that it'll take some time to get it back under control. Adding a refugium would help with the process, most likely. Neither the mantis nor the crab are likely to eat Chaetomorpha, although the crab is a bit questionable.

I am not knowledgeable about that skimmer, so I can't help much there. You might want to contact the manufacturer or someone familiar with the EV 120.

Most fish stores will carry peppermint shrimp, and online vendors as well.

[Sk8r]

I'd skim wet and skip the coral feedings except maybe the phyto---phyto sustains pods, which help with the substrate. The fish poop ought to be enough. I take it you've got a healthy crew of bristleworms: they'll help break down the fish poop and take care of detritus. I have over a hundred in my 52.

Re your flow, I use a mag 9.5 in my 52, plus a Sea Swirl that mixes up the current a bit.

The remora is first cousin to the Urchin, which I use, and you skim wet by just adjusting the rubber ring/gasket so the cup sinks deeper into the unit, and it produces a watery skimmate, which you change often. That might help a lot.

What's your substrate? Aragonite? 4" deep? That helps, too.

Be patient with it and keep the fish load from increasing: better hungry fish than over-nitrited fish. Your corals will eat the fish poo if you have the worms to cause a breakdown of that into finer particles.

[Mental1]

The 55 gallon is gone, the remora is on the 30 gallon qt/hospital tank, the 72 gallon has a sump etc. I don't know if the new tank has bristle worms. I will contact the manufaturer of the skimmer. I will also contact Richard of TBS to see if he can tell me more about the coral ...

[rick s]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8329589#post8329589 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mental1
Can anyone tell me if the skimmer should be able to adjust better -- the gate valve is wide open and the air valve is tough to adjust -- I seem to be able to get dry gunk -- then I open the air valve a very small amount and I get tons of wet ...
I'm wondering if the skimmer's producing too much wet is because of the additives you're adding. I add amino acids to my tank twice a week. Everytime I do, my skimmer goes nuts for awhile and almost fills the cup, especially if the collection cup has recently been cleaned.

As a test, you could stop adding anything but the mysis for a few weeks, and see if you can get your skimmer adjusted somewhere between too dry and flooding.

[MyCatsDrool]

Hi --

I am new to SW, but I wanted to help if i can.

On the Nitrates:

Have you tried any nitrate sponges? Adding a macro algae like chaeto or calurpa will definately help.

On the Mantis:

I am a HUGE advocate of the olive jar trick. take a long, tall jar with a wide mouth, and tilt it at a 45 degree angle against some rock, in the area of the mantis shrimps' home. put some treats in there (chopped scallop works well for me) and wait. You might get your mantis, and maybe some others too.

On the Skimmer:

Definately contact the manufacturer, and don't let them off the phone til either you have it adjusted the way you want it, or they have a refund for you.

Overall:

Look at your tank and find 3 good things about it. 3 things you love about it. Even with issues, maybe this will give you encouragement.

oh, and the corals:

Pic #1 looks like either some kind of gorgonian, but most likely a sponge

pic #2 looks like Montastrea annularis which is common to the caribbean

pic #3 looks like Acropora cervicornis also common to the caribbean.

I could be wrong on those. I looked them up in my book of caribbean and florida corals.

[bertoni]

Rick makes an interesting point. Perhaps you could stop all feeding for a few days and see how the skimmer does. The mysid should be fine, if you feel guilty about hungry fish. They'll do fine, though.

[Mental1]

I have not tried nitrate sponges -- don't even know what they are. I will get some chaeto and see if it will survive in the middle chamber of my sump because I am stuck figuring out a fuge. I am going to take my skimmer apart and clean it out to see if it will adjust better. If not I will call Aqua-C -- I hope they are open on Saturdays. If one of the corals is acropora I am worrried because I believe you have to do the turkey baster feeding which has not been done?? I think everything else will survive without feeding anything but the mysis shrimp. What should I do with the acropora coral?

[bertoni]

The Acropora does not need direct feeding, and a few days without coral food will be fine.