to maroon breeder

[bcjm]

My maroons are 4 months old. I kept about 40 of them in a breeder net (6"x6"x6") hanging on to a main tank. Fish sizes are very different. I start getting some casualties of smaller fish lately. Should I separate the larger from the smaller ones? What kind of grow out tank do you guys use for maroon?

[eco-tropic]

Bob,

Maroons need to be crowded to 10 fish per gallon during grow out. This is the only way I know of to keep them from killing one another. You also need to put strong aeration on any potential territory, like heaters. The maroons need to be grown out without any territory to fight over. This means no decorations, live rock, etc.

[bcjm]

I have some PVC pipes in the breeder's net right for them to hide. Should I remove these pipes completely before I can set up the grow out tank?

[Greenwater]

I guess I have been doing it all wrong. The first batch of about 30 maroons that I raised (they are also at 4 months now) are in a 10 gallon tank that has lots of macros, a little live rock and even a BTA. There seemed to be a huge spike in violence right around the 2 month mark, but they have settled down and there are actually not even any shredded fins anymore. All of the little maroons used to be obsessed with getting to the anemone and were good and crowded around that general vicinity. IMO if they had been more spread out through the tank they would have picked on individual fish to a much greater extent. I am currently down to 5 of those original 30 ( people here in Des Moines loved the babies and bought them all up around 3 months old) in the 10 gallon and there is still considerable harmony. There is a lot of posturing, but no nipped fins and a relatively peaceful environment. There are 2 that have taken up residence in the BTA, 2 that have decided to host in a patch of macros, and one that is in the middle of the tank by himself wondering if he has bad breath or what.
For long term grow out of large batches of maroons I think that packing them into an aquarium at high densities keeps the agression spread out, but when faced with a smaller number of clowns, it has worked for me to give them a battlefield so that they naturally congregate in that area and one clown is not overly picked on.
How about some photos BCJM! I will try to remember to bring some into work tomorrow to share.
Best of luck!

[eco-tropic]

I should pause from time to time and consider that almost everyone on this board is dealing in tens and not hundreds or thousands. I agree with Greenwater that a 10 gallon would be plenty of space for 30 - 40 fish. In the interim my personal action would be to remove the PVC until you can get a 10 up and running to see if that might circumvent future mortality. You could attempt to segregate the smaller ones but it might be more trouble than it is worth. It seems like every batch has a couple of bullies, the hell of it is when you move out the bullies there are always new ones to take their place. Another good vessel for maroon grow out is a large Wal-Mart baby pool. Baby pools have way more surface area then depth but they provide ample space. Just a cheap expedient suggestion. Glad to hear of your success!

[Greenwater]

Ok Ok so we aren't as proficient at getting large numbers of clowns to maturity - but then again what would I ever do with so many babies. The scale of operation I am sure has a lot to do with how you can maintain the babies. I do not even want to imagine how you clean a baby pool - it is enough work trying to keep my larval tank in tip-top shape.
I just wanted to post a couple of pictures of my batch. This first one is at about 2 and a half months old.

[Greenwater]

...and this one is aptly named sibling rivalry!

[eco-tropic]

Touché' In looking at your pics, nice job, I didn't realize you had an anemone for them. My guess is that they play king of the mountain with the anemone and therefore don't have time to kill one another? BTW. 30 - 40 clowns is a very good number. Figure the average maroon nest to be 1500 eggs and you've got a 2.5% survival rate. This is real good considering the fact that your probably scooping on hatch night and not hatching remotely. Great idea with the anemone! It never would have crossed my mind!

[Greenwater]

Yep - I scoop on hatch night. I believe the most that I ever succeeded in capturing was about 250 and that took 2 hours. What a pain, but the pair lay on the same rock the anemone is attached to so there isn't much that I could do there. I just wish they would all decide to hatch at the same time instead of over 4-6 hours. I do not even turn the pumps off for the first 2 hours after dark as there just aren't enough to try scooping. It makes for a late night, but I have been very fortunate that over the last 3 months, they lay every other Thursday night and hatch every other Friday. It gives me time to get them going over the weekend and for me to catch up on some sleep.

Eco -
Do you still have some tank raised babies of any of your species or did you sell all of that off? I thought I remembered reading a post about 6 months ago that you were raising some bicinctus or some other fairly rare species (I am too lazy to go back and search right now.)

[eco-tropic]

If you are averaging a 250 clown scoop rate then your numbers are very, very good. You are around 37%, which is awesome. Everything except for 15 mated pairs was sold. We had a rather large debt to cover. Good news is that of the clowns I transferred to my garage 10 pairs were either spawning or close to spawning. My hope is that after 6 months I’ll be producing and raising some limited spawns of A. bicinctus, akindynos, bicinctus, leucokranus, allardi, and fiji melanopus. My hope is to be able to provide some of these clown species direct to folks on this board. I’ll keep everyone posted. If you ever get to the point where you have several hundred clowns you need to off load let me know as I still have all the wholesale contacts.

[Greenwater]

Well I am happy to hear that you were able to keep some of your breeding pairs. Let us know when you have some juveniles available to send out.
Thanks for the offer of a contact when I have several hundred excess clowns. How old would these clowns have to be? Not that I am planning to do get that many going now, but maybe when things slow down after the summer, I may get real ambitious and try something crazy like that.
Oh and how does the fiji melanopus differ from the standard? Less black on the sides?

[eco-tropic]

The clowns should be 3 – 4 months past metamorphosis. The Fiji melanopus is bright red to red/orange. I’ll post a pic when I get a chance.

[Dman]

eco-tropic,
Wow, I am just starting to raise gold striped maroon clowns and I found your statement of 10 clowns per gallon surprising.
I have been lucky enough to watch the second clutch laid and fertilized yesterday and will be transferring them in about 8 days to hatch out in a 5 or 10 gallon tank until after metamorphosis.
This clutch looks to be about 1200 eggs all nice and neat on a ceramic tile. Until I become more proficient at raising the larvae I'm expecting catastrophic losses of 50-75%. With that said, I should probably rear them in a 60-65 gallon tank ?

[eco-tropic]

10 per gallon does sound extreme, but if you have a couple hundred you are presented with a slight space problem. Good luck with your hatches.

Greenwater,

Pic of Fiji melanopus.

[Robdean2]

I wanted to jump in and ask (any of you)...

Did you purchase mated pairs or did you pair them yourself? How long did it take for the clowns to start spawning? Were they in with other fish or did you set up, originally, to breed them?

Just trying to get some "real-life" accounts! Anything would be much appreciated.

[Dman]

Robdean2,
I got really lucky, I started to spread the word that I was looking for a mated pair. A friend of mine was at an LFS and saw a pair that were not only mated but had spawned in the LFS's tanks. The owner of the LFS was really happy to see them go as they had actually spawned in his tanks twice and he wasn't too happy with what it had done to his parameters, not ot mention the fact that he was selling fish not raising them.
Well, after the move to my house it was almost 6 months to the day for the first clutch, that was just over two weeks ago.

[Greenwater]

Thanks for the photo Eco.

RobDean2 - I did not purchase mine as a mated pair, but as two individuals 3 months apart. After being together for 9 months, they started spawning. I did not set my tank up with the sole purpose of raising clowns, there are other fish and soft corals in the tank. My tank is not the ideal set up for breeding clowns as there is no way for me to remove the rock that the eggs are laid on, so it is a tedious task to remove the larvae. If you are interested in the breeding aspect only, I would recommend a set-up like you can see in Eco-tropics picture of the Melanopus above.

[Robdean2]

Thanks guys.

[bcjm]

Eco-tropic,

Thank you for the picture. Is Fiji Melanopus rare and hard to find? Wondering why do you choice that to breed.

Bob

[eco-tropic]

Fiji melanopus is about as difficult to find as sandaracinos. They are usually available in the summer. I've had the aforementioned pair for about 5 years. The reason I've kept them is that they started spawning two days after they were first acclimated and have never missed a day since. I just couldn't bring myself to get rid of them. BTW, the larvae from this pair have been the easiest to raise of any clowns ever had.

[eco-tropic]

OH, Bob, I wanted to ask you how those funky chrysofaciatus clowns are doing? Any problems?

[bcjm]

They are doing well, thanks. I will see if I can take few photos tonight. I have had good luck with these chrysogaster/latifasciatus lately after losing like 10-15 of them. So far I have never been able to save a single chrysogaster using formalin. Just fresh water dip/hypo salinity/anti-biotic combination seems do the trick for me. Every time I use formalin dip, their skin conditions become worse. They normally die in a day or two after that.

I have 2.5 pair established. The other 0.5 is in quarantine about 5 weeks now. Doing great after suffering Brookynella/ick in the first 2 weeks.

Bob

[eco-tropic]

Maybe your on to something. Perhaps you could document your steps for the rest of us?

[bcjm]

My breeding room

[bcjm]

chrysopterus/latifasciatus

The one with a forked tail.

[bcjm]

akindynos

[bcjm]

More than 100 pass 4 weeks but only got 30 left.

http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?postid=478904

[eco-tropic]

Damn fine setup you got going there Bob! If you were here in California your electric bill would be $500 a month, like mine.

[eco-tropic]

Please pardon the algae, I've taken to scraping it only once every couple of months to help keep nitrate & water changes down. It also limits cleaning which can scare certain clowns and prohibit them from spawning.

[Greenwater]

Thanks for all the photos -
I am extremely envious of the set-ups that you guys have. I am on the minimalist approach to things for now but am inspired to greater things looking at your photos. Now just to convince the wife...

[bcjm]

I am glad my wife is with me for this hobby. It is my daughter has to keep reminding us how much we had spend each month.:)

[Pumba]

Nice setup bcjm!
What size tanks are they that your have your pairs and young in?
(Please use inches as being australian makes it difficult when people say 38gal. all glass- got no idea what they are talking about)

I am setting up a bank of tanks in an attempt to breed black & white occelaris and regular variety. Ive got a heap of questions for you guys in the coming months!

A big problem I may have will be heat, as the tanks are in the garage, which gets afternoon sun. What are ideal temps for the pairs? Normal temps?

Thanks for your help,
Matt

[bcjm]

I am using 40 breeder (36x18x18). I keep mine in 80 degree temperature.

Is the black and white ocellaris like the one in the attached photo?

[Pumba]

Thanks for your reply.
Yep. thats them.
Here are some attached pics.
These pics are from a collector in Mackay (central Queensland) but they come from a guy in Darwin who has/is breeding them.

The major wholesaler here in Qld has them atm for about $20 a piece retail.

[Atticus]

I was wodering... Do any of you have a mated pair you would be willing to sell or trade for? I am just starting to breed clowns and bangaiis and would love to skip the wait for a pair to become mated. Also have any of you had success with mating a pair of maroons using different sizes hoping one is a female? I have read that it is possible, but everyone I talk to say that the female will kill the juvenile. Any input would be appreciated and any help finding a mated pair would be great.

[eco-tropic]

Atticus,

Maroons would be an excellent fist clownfish to do some breeding with. You can find mated pairs from a number of sources. I think ORA puts out a couple of pairs here & there. If you wanted to skip the wait you might consider an inquiry to any number of the board sponsors for a mated pair of maroons. I do not have any pairs that I would be willing to part with right now. Most of what bcjm & I have would be rare to very rare and not good choices for someone who wants to actually start breeding clownfish. As far as females killing a juvenile it is a possibility. There are several methods for pairing maroons when using a large adult female. I would suggest a copy of Joyce Wilkerson's book "clownfishes" as a good starting point for someone looking to get into this portion of the obsession. Joyce details a method or two for pairing maroon clowns that I believe you would find informative.

[Pumba]

What are some other "different" clowns I could try?
I was thinking of maybe A. rubrocinctus, A. akidynos, A. chrysopterus or A. latezonatus. I was thinking of these as they are not normally found in the trade, however I know of a couple of collectors that can get these. Is the general breeding of clownfish common to all species?

bcjm,
Is that a pic of your fish that you posted?
Matt

[eco-tropic]

Matt,

Of the clowns you just mentioned your best luck would be had with A. rubrocinctus. If your wanting to dive head first I would encourage you to start off with something simple in order to get the basic process down. While your breeding something like melanopus or rubrocinctus you should start acquiring the other pairs you mentioned. Chrysopterus & latezonatus are very difficult to breed. They could take years to even start looking like they might breed. It all boils down to how long you want to wait. The breeding process is pretty much they same for all clowns but there are some subtle difference. When I did this as a "profession" my partners and I were never succesful with latezonatus, we had very mixed results with chrysopterus, and akindynos was about as difficult as clownfish in the skunk complex. These are some difficult clownfish to breed, but the more the merrier. I think if a proverbial ton of people start trying to breed the aforementioned we are bound to have way more successes. If you do go with chrysopterus I would recommend at least a 55 (48x12x24) gallon tank. They seem to need way more space as their spawning activity is a bit unique.

Jeff

[Pumba]

Thanks for your reply Jeff.
I think I will start off with the 2 "forms" of the occelaris, just wondering about what else I could try.
I will see about getting these tanks I have drilled and the system setup.
Could someone else post some pics or diagrams of their setup?

Thanks
Matt

[Ammonia]

Thank you both for your replies,

Louis, the forums “down under” don’t get any where near as much traffic as Reef Central, RTAW an Aussie forum only has approx 600 members where Reef Central has over 15000.

I was steering clear of the bio balls due to the bad press I had been reading on this forum, seems like everyone has a different slant on the same subject, I guess there is more than one way to skin a cat as they say.

Maybe I could do a combination of the two in the sump? And remove the bio balls at a later date if they became an issue due to excessive nitrates?

Any way thanks again

Mark

[Ammonia]

Sorry posted reply on the wrong thread.

[Vert20]

I have had the Darker of the two for about 6 months and the lighter one I added about three months ago. No breeding as of yet, but I remain hopeful.

They started out kind of agressive toward each other, but seem to get along much better as of late. They tend to do what my wife calls the "Electric Fish Dance" now and again. Its a fast shimmy motion while facing straight up or straight down. I have never seen them do this in a horizontal position. It is always while vertical.

http://www.dash4cash-racing.com/images/tank/clowns2.jpg

[MKramer]

Electric Fish Dance... that's cute. My fiancee jsut calls it seizures. I like your wife's name better.

Anyway, it's a submissive gesture. It's always been non-horizontal in my experience... my theory is that it's the equivalent to us laying prone. In that position, we really can't do much, and are therefor allowing the harasser to do whatever they please. It's the fish's way of saying "I give up."

But that's just my theory. I haven't exactly been in this hobby for long.

[moga]

Hey.i think we met at Fort Washington....right?
wow..your set up was great..:)
nice meeting you here in the cyber space.....

[crazzy]

Updates please

[MarinaP]

bcjm left the hobby a couple of years ago and sold his setup.

[wjhuie]

Anyone here had any luck breeding A. nigripes?