Do we need a Potassium article / sticky?

[PrangeWay]

Any chance you'll be doing a Potassium article, or even just a nice big sticky thread to facilitate some information gathering?

While I know in a Zeo tank Potassium slowly drops and does affect your corals (first-hand experience, plus that off lots of Zeo users experience), we still don't know if it effects non-Zeo users. I wouldn't want tons of people buying/adding additives and test kits if it's not necessary...


Danke,
PW

[Bebo77]

lol i was just asking about potassium... lol

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Wow, the zeo folks have really gotten a lot of folks worked up about potassium. I hope their kit is accurate. :lol:

I'm not claiming it may not be a concern for some or any aquaria, but when Ron Shimek did this study, few folks had depleted potassium. The average came out a tad higher than NSW:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-02/rs/feature/index.php

[Habib]

Economic Geology; October 1961; v. 56; no. 6; p. 1133-1136

The use of clinoptilolite to remove potassium selectively from aqueous solutions of mixed salts
L. L. Ames, and B. W. Mercer

More work would be necessary to develop a recovery process but the results presented show that the K specificity of clinoptilolite may allow the extraction and recovery of potash from mixed salt solutions on a commercial scale



;) :)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What would you use that for?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Are you thinking it is the zeo media that removes the potassium?

That would be a little embarrassing, wouldn't it. To have to sell one product to make up for problems with another. :D

[Habib]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8407321#post8407321 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
What would you use that for?

Zeolite. :)


http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=3334188&highlight=clinoptilolite+AND+potassium#post3334188

[Boomer]

Did somemone say Zeolite again:bigeyes:

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Boomer, what do you think of zeo media binding a significant amount of potassium?

[Boomer]

On that long thread Habib posted I gave the ion's that have the greatest affinity for the zeolite Clinoptlolite and K+ is like second on the list IIRC.

I still have issues with any zeolite in seawater doing much of anything in any significant fashion. Reason, these are also used in water treatment, as in water softeners, where K+ and mostly Na+ are kicked out and replaced with Ca++, Mg++. other other ions. They are recharged with rock salt, for the Na+ kick out. And the "grade" of Clino is based on its Na+/K+ ratio. And if we are talking real Clinoptilotlite, it is a Hydrated Sodium Potassium Calcium Aluminum Silicate.

(Na, K, Ca)2 - 3Al3(Al, Si)2Si13O36-12H2O

It differs from Heulandite, its sister zeolite, at the other end of this mineral sequence, in that it has significantly more potassium and slightly more silica than Heulandite, which is Na+ rich. So how dose losing K+ make any real sense ? It is going to be kicking out mostly K+ and would have the greatest affinity for picking up K+, sounds almost self defeating to me.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So how dose losing K+ make any real sense ? It is going to be kicking out mostly K+ and would have the greatest affinity for picking up K+, sounds almost self defeating to me.


Not sure I understand that sentence, but I'm also not sure how k+ gets depleted by other mechansims either.

[Habib]

Those that have a potassium kit and the zeolite they are using could take a jar of water, measure the potassium.

Add to it a the zeolite, say approx 5% by volume and let it sit for a day or two and measure the potassium again.

Assuming the kit is reasonably accurate it could supply information if the zeolite is capable in selectively removing potassium from seawater.


I did an experiment with ammonia in seawater and a zeolite commonly used by reef aquarists and saw a reduction. Albeit relatively large amount of zeolite per volume of water.


Potassium is present in a far higher concentration than ammonia and clinoptilolite (I supect is in the zeolite mix in significant amounts) is more selective for potassium than ammonium (IIRC).

[Boomer]

What I mean Randy or mean was only two ions are going to be doing any ionic exchange, Na+ and K+. If we assume there is an exchange for K+ it will have to be the Na+ doing the exchanging. K+ is not going to replace itself. Other ions in seawater, such as Ca++, Mg++, etc., will also be getting some exchanged for K+ and Na+. If any K+ is getting kicked out and replaced by other ions K+ will end up back in the water. However, after doing some looking it appears the the K+ will just end up doing most of the ionic exchange, leaving the water low in K+, at least in FW. But what about the higher, Mg++, Ca++ and Na+ concentration in seawater, which are all much higher than K+. Usually, but not always, ionic exchange or its rate is based on concentration. With that said, Ca++, Mg++ and Na+ would over rule K+ in seawater, with little depletion of K+ I would think. How would K+ out compete these ions with any real meaning. ?



Selectivity of ion exchange on clinoptilolite
Auteur(s) / Author(s)
TARASEVICH Yu. I. (1) ; KARDASHEVA M. V. (1) ; POLYAKOV V. E. (1) ;


Résumé / Abstract
Ion-exchange equilibria involving Na[+], K[+], and Pb[2+] cations on low-silica clinoptilolite (existing in nature in calcium form) and on high-silica clinoptilolite (predominantly existing in nature in sodium form) were studied. It was found that the Na-forms of low- and high-silica modifications of clinoptilolite exhibit enhanced selectivity with respect to bivalent Pb[2+] cations and monovalent K[+] cations, respectively.

Revue / Journal Title
Colloid journal of the Russian Academy of Sciences (Colloid j. Russ. Acad. Sci.) ISSN 1061-933X
Source / Source
1997, vol. 59, no6, pp. 754-759 (27 ref.)
Langue / Language
Anglais
Editeur / Publisher
Plenum, New York, NY, ETATS-UNIS (1992- 199) (Revue)

Here is more
http://www.krist.unibe.ch/pdf/Clinoptilolite.pdf

[GTR]

Randy, Boomer & Habib (The order is random)...;)


This set of tests shows K to be low in all ASW with a concentration between 81% and 53% of what's found in NSW.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/12/aafeature1/view?searchterm=salt%20study

Do you have reason to think those results are not correct? It seems to mirror the results the group of people I know that have used the hobby test kit sold be KZ. One of my systems that has not used ZEOvit tested at 250.

SteveU

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't have any strong reason to believe that it is or is not accurate. Unfortunately, they did not actually test NSW.

Craig's test showed much closer to NSW values for all mixes:

http://web.archive.org/web/20001215070800/http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1999/mar/features/1/default.asp

FWIW, potassium is not especially inexpensive, and I see no reason that manufacturers wouldn't add NSW quantities to their mixes, since many claim to do just that.

That all said, it may be low in many aquaria. I've not tested it myself in mine.

[GTR]

Thanks Randy, I didn't realize that NSW was untested as a control. Oceanic does test out for me similar to the results they show as did the tank, from it's use I'd assume.

SteveU

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Is Grand Terrace anywhere near the ocean? It might be nice to get a little seawater and check it. :)

[Donw]

Randy,
Would it be a valid test to test schuran ca reactor media effluent for K levels above the tank water. Would this tell us wether or not the corals are using it or not?

Don

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Folks have analyzed coral skeletons for potassium, if that is the issue. I'll look some additional literature info up when I get a chance.

These analyses of reactor media show relatively little potassium:

http://web.archive.org/web/20010210225056/http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1997/aug/bio/default.asp

http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquariumfish/detail.aspx?aid=1995&cid=124&search=


The crushed coral in the second one shows potassium to be 0.0011 times the calcium. So 1 kilogram of coral skeleton (with roughly 360 grams of calcium) would contain 400 mg of potassium. If that came from a 100 gallon aquarium, it would deplete potassium by 1 ppm when the normal level is about 400 ppm.

[Lobster]

Sorry to dredge up an old thread, but is it possible in, say, a BB tank with extremely heavy skimming that potassium would be exported via K+ contained inside bacteria and other organics that are skimmed out? I realize there is no sink as with skeletal deposits of calcium per se, but do live bacteria not contain some number potassium ions? I am trying to figure out an explanation for my tank's low potassium concentration and it is all I can come up with.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Live bacteria will contain potassium, but they can only exist as far as their are nutrients (nitrogen and phosphorus) to support them, and those nutrients come from foods that consist of cells that themselves contain potassium. So somehow one has to suppose that outflow is more than inflow. It may be, but without knowing the exact materials feeding and exporting it is hard to know if that makes sense or not.

In the absence of data, I could just as easily argue that they contain less potassium than the foods as more. :D

[Lobster]

That of course makes a lot of sense. Are you saying the food going in are cells and would probably contain a similar ratio of PO4/NO3/K/etc to what is being exported, so net K should not be impacted? My tank was 150ppm away from NSW levels.

I guess I'm just trying to figure out where my tank leaks potassium. After 24 hours of mixing, IO tests ~300ppm K for me, and my tank water tested 235ppm a month ago. Of course, that's assuming this kit is accurate, but Ive heard that it is. I do see symptoms exactly as described by the zeo guide though for low K.

I think I may just write my tank off as a loss and start over with a DSB. This super-low-nutrient stuff is over my head! :D

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That of course makes a lot of sense. Are you saying the food going in are cells and would probably contain a similar ratio of PO4/NO3/K/etc to what is being exported, so net K should not be impacted?

In the absence of data, that is my first approximation, yes. Fresh seafood, for example, is cells. Whether it has the same amount of potassium as whatever strains of bacteria are in your tank, I cannot say.

What does zeo claim will happen at low potassium?

[slow_leak]

Back from the dead in '09 Anyway great info here! Anyway bringing this together...I suspect ZeoVit does recommends K+ addition because Boomer's assumption is right. Zeolith or (Na, K, Ca)2 - 3Al3(Al, Si)2Si13O36-12H2O does selectively compete with ammonium ions and potassium may actually be slowly depleted in ZeoVit tanks.

To my knowledge ZeoVit test kit has never been hobbyist tested against known standards. Serial dilutions of potassium in a salt water matrix would be a nightmare by flame AA I would guess.

[Billybeau1]

Boy, you did a lot of digging to find that old thread. :D

slow......... don't get Boomer started again. :lol:

[Jar*Head]

I am sorry for jump in with my silly question because all the term that Boomer and Randy using didn't work too well for me as you all know i am an infantry man in the Marine Corps. So i am not smart at all when it come to Chemistry stuff :lol:.

I am currently using the Zeovit rock assuming it will help reduce Ammonia, Nitrate and PO4. I have been reading this thread back and forth too many times but i still don't understand so can someone please break it down to barnie style for me what exactly these rock and do consider benefitial in salt water aquarium?

Once again, i am sorry for the lack of knowledge as well as education :D

[FFrankie]

Folks have analyzed coral skeletons for potassium, if that is the issue. I'll look some additional literature info up when I get a chance.



Any further development on this Randy? Thanks for all your help over the years :)

[chris88]

Just curious, are you guys saying that corals take up very little potassium in their skeletons with growth? What else other then corals could deplete potassium? Bacteria, algae growth, etc? I am just trying to figure out why my potassium dropped so much when I stopped doing large water changes and began dosing vinegar. Also, do I still have to dose it now that it is back up to 400pm and I stopped dosing vinegar. Will it stay at 400ppm if supposedly nothing uses it?
Lastly are there any side effects of bright it up past 400ppm?

[bertoni]

Potassium is one of the harder parameters to measure, and most tanks don't seem to deplete it. The vinegar dosing might cause a drop, especially over time. I'd keep a good water change schedule, and check potassium every few months or so, and not worry much about relatively small changes.

[bdbyace28]

Wow too much info. I think I'll stick with my refugium until I see a reason to do otherwise. Sounds like a lot of this stuff is inconclusive or unable to offer consistent results.

[FFrankie]

To be honest, without more people out there testing for it how can we assume most tanks are not loosing K+ over a given time.
As more and more K+ test kits become available the more were going to see hobbyists like Chris there noticing drops or rises in potassium.

There is not much known about elevated levels of potassium Chris, but there are some now experimenting with it for stronger faster coral growth.
I find the topic interesting and would like to know if Mr Farley has done any more investigating on it since 06?

[Boomer]

Jar*

I am currently using the Zeovit rock assuming it will help reduce Ammonia, Nitrate and PO4.

You are wasting you time an money trying to do this is what my posts eludes to. However, Zeolites/Zeovit rock will suck out the Potassium very fast. This is why you see many Zeovit people adding potassium

FF

To be honest, without more people out there testing for it how can we assume most tanks are not loosing K+ over a given time.

Based on tests there is no real depletion of K+, except in those systems where Zeolites are used. Some have claimed that a needle-wheel operated skimmer lowers K+ and not a pinwheel. But I only see claims. When I told this to Ken Feldman he had a good laugh. Many just like to jack up K+ as it makes corals brighter, does not = corals need it but makes them more blue. It is a reefer that wants it not the coral. However, any living thing I know of needs some K+. Allot of this you need to add x, y or z is from manufactures selling products and as of yet do not have a leg to stand on, just marketing hype. That is what marketers do sell stuff where they know there is no real data on it and make claims. If I showed you and I can, that corals also uptake Uranium in their skeletons does that me to have a Ur additive. They also have Lithium and Barium and many other ions in their skeleton.

For corals and many other carbonate producers that carbonate skeleton, test, shell, is a dumpster for iosn they pick up and do not need and just dump them in the "skeleton". That is why many of these ions are in direct portion to what is found in surrounding column water. Matter of fact, they are so precise that they are used in Paleoclimatolgy and Paleothermometry studies of accident corals and the environments they use to live in. People need to get off this kick of Coral Skeleton and look at the Coral Tissue needs.

Corals really have two growth rates and they are not always equal, Coral growth, as in Skeletal Growth and Coral Growth and is Soft Tissue Growth. Just because a Coral Skeleton has very good growth does not really = Coral Tissue is also at a good Growth. That accelerated Skeletal Growth may produce a thinner soft tissue making it more prone to wave impact, taring it or make the Skeletal Density to low, making the Coral branch more subject to breaking/fragile to debris and wave action energy.



there are some now experimenting with it for stronger faster coral growth

I do not buy into that at all :) Says who and based on what and do not say so says the Zeovit guys. Don't get me wrong, that reefers do not find out some very interesting things, they have but to often is is way out of the ball park and assumptions, where in reality "we" may be adding x, which is not needed but directly affects y, which is needed. And we need to solve for y with using x, as x is not a good thing.

A good example is Shrimp and the misunderstood claim we need to add Iodine as they need it for their molt cycle. Shrimp do not take Iodine from the water column but from foods. When you jack up the Iodine level it has to high a gradient which causes excessive amounts of Iodine to diffuse into the shrimp. This in return causes the shrimp to go into excessive molt cycles, which ends up killing them, as they have expended all their energy in molting, which is controlled allot by iodine.

On the same note, Zenia and their pulsating. Lets think out side the box here for a second. How about the reason they pulsate more, when you are adding Iodine, is they DO NOT like it and are increasing the water currents around them by pulsating, so there is LESS Iodine uptake or it is acting as an irritant to them. Zenia usually pulsate for one reason, the water column current is to slow, so they can speed it up by pulsating, take in more food and are able to rid itself of unwanted mucus and waste. You put them in a better current the pulsating usually stops, as it is suppose to, as they do not need it.

[FFrankie]

Thanks for the fast reply Boomer. You gave me a lot to think on. I did not mention any names yet because there really isn't any data to go by yet. Just some people tinkering around. I am still waiting for the long term effect of there tinkering. ;)

You should know me by now that I am not just following your LFS guy in his back room experiments but respected long term reefers that get into the science of it all. There is more going on then just bumping up the K+ though and maybe I spoke to soon. It is too early to really comment on anything anyhow.

As for the needle wheel being the culprit...LOL. Not to sure about that one! I do however think they may be directly damaging to microorganisms. better left for another thread~

What is your opinion though of zeo users seeing drops in K+ because of accelerated coral growth and color and not the zeolites being the main cause?
I say this because some of the people using other methods of probiotics that do not use zeolite are also seeing drops in K+?

[slow_leak]

My comment may be seen as off topic but I do agree zeolites will adsorb K.

I have had good luck so far with simply replacing typical refugium with a modified algae turf scrubber. I am certain it removed nutrients very rapidly, which is a condition promoting sps growth. I actually would consider making it a small screen size it works so well.

Is this what you are trying to accomplish with zeovit or is it the pale colors you want?

[HighlandReefer]

"I say this because some of the people using other methods of probiotics that do not use zeolite are also seeing drops in K+?"

Are these references basing their information on using hobby grade K+ kits? If so these kits do not seem to be very accurate IMHO. ;)

Potassium testing with the Fauna kit (Randy's testing)
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1793356&highlight=fauna+potassium

From this thread, a quote by Randy:

"I cannot be sure it is actually responding to potassium at all yet, but my expectation is that yes, it will tell you if you are grossly low in potassium (300 vs 400). If you want to know if you have 380 and not 400 ppm, no I do not think it will do that."

[FFrankie]

Thanks for the link Cliff :)
I agree that the kits available to the hobbyist are not very accurate. I have not been very impressed with my KZ one. I do know that Elos recently came out with one and am looking forward to reports on how accurate it is.

[HighlandReefer]

Your welcome. ;)

Personally, I don't see how the Zeo users can attribute coral color changes to potassium levels using any of the hobby grade kits to measure its level.

Keep in mind Zeo users typically add additional heavy metals, vitamins, amino acids, carbon sources..........etc which all are known to have effects on coral. How one can decipher the effects of individual additives or the combinations of these additives is beyond me given what we can measure in the reef tank using hobby grade kits plus taking into consideration the unknown levels present in the tank to start with. ;)

[Boomer]

What is your opinion though of zeo users seeing drops in K+ because of accelerated coral growth and color and not the zeolites being the main cause?
I say this because some of the people using other methods of probiotics that do not use zeolite are also seeing drops in K+?

About the same as Cliff's


Keep in mind Zeo users typically add additional heavy metals, vitamins, amino acids, carbon sources..........etc which all are known to have effects on coral. How one can decipher the effects of individual additives or the combinations of these additives is beyond me

You says that K+ is making corals grow faster in that soup is due to K+ ? How they know it is not the bacteria that are using the K+ and the corals feed on the bacteria and the increased bacteria, which has not to do with them needing K+, is what is causing them to grow faster. Again who says that if coral grows faster or very fast that is good for coral and is a healthy thing ?


and

Incorporation of Potassium in Scleractinian Coral Aragonite: Preliminary X-Ray Absorption Spectroscopy

Pingitore, N. E.; Villalobos, J.; Cruz-Jimenez, G.; Wellington, G. M.
American Geophysical Union, Spring Meeting 2001, abstract #V41B-04

Initial examination of potassium K-edge XANES (x-ray absorption near-edge structure) suggests that the bulk of the potassium in these corals neither substitutes for calcium in the aragonite structure nor is present as a discrete potassium carbonate phase. The potassium might be bound to chlorine as a potassium chloride phase or as a substitute for sodium in the sodium chloride phase believed to be present in these corals. Thus far we have examined 5 coral specimens, including the taxa Porites lutea,Porites lobata, and Pavona gigantea, all collected live in the Pacific from Galapagos and the Gulf of Panama, and Montastrea annularis, collected from the Pleistocene of Marie Galante, Guadeloupe, in the Caribbean.The concentration of potassium in scleractinian coral aragonite is low, typically 100 ppm or less. This compromises the quality of the spectra obtained from x-ray absorption spectroscopy and necessitates long counting times. The experiments also are limited to the region within less than 400 eV above the K K-edge (3.607 KeV) due to the appearance of the overwhelming Ca K-edge at 4.038 KeV. The weak photons from potassium K-fluorescence further complicate data acquisition and compromise data quality. The XANES spectra of the best of our samples did not appear to match the spectrum from a potassium carbonate standard. Comparison of the K XANES spectra to those of Ca in coral aragonite did not suggest similar atomic environments around the potassium; therefore the potassium probably does not substitute for calcium. The potassium may be present in a chloride phase. We anticipate collecting additional data with longer counting times to resolve these uncertainties. Data were collected at the Stanford Synchrotron Radiation Laboratory in fluorescence mode on beam line 4-1 using a helium pathway to our Lytle detector. A potassium carbonate standard was used as an energy reference.

Some things they do seem to be true based on sup's added but lighting can also cause color shifts.

SPS coral coloration

Yellow

Nitrate and/or PO4 reduction is most important, either through technical means such as nitrate/phosphate reducers or biologically through DSB, Carbon dosing and/or water changes and fuges.

Greens

Greens would be the next easiest color to tweak. Most green coloration can be achieved through the addition of an Iron Concentrate.



Blues and some purples

This is mainly for blues but I have found is can also have an effect on purples. The supplement for this is Potassium Iodide Concentrate.



Reds/Pinks and some Purples

Primarily for coloring reds and pinks in Montiporas, Pocilloporas, Birdsnest, other Stys and Seriatoporas. The supplement is Potassium (not potassium iodide).



Purples

Probably one of the hardest coloration of all acroporas from my experience since it is a combination of several variables.


Increased water clarify will first effect SPS tips but not the complete base.

Second being lighting. From my observations of my own tank and others, purples seem to love 420-440nm range light spectrum, those found in actinics and 20K halides.

Third, supplements such as Iodide and Potassium

These color changes are something that is just seen and not measured. I have no issue agreeing that if you start to dump in various sup's raising ion x to a high level you will see color changes. This does not mean, again, the coral need it, it is you want or need it :D I will say this one last time, just because some ion is in a coral skeleton does not mean it needs it. Many of those ions are wastes and deposit in the skeleton as wastes. That skeleton is more like a toilet for corals.

So, based on this The concentration of potassium in scleractinian coral aragonite is low, typically 100 ppm or less and of course many like to go by what is in the coral Skeleton, which for the most part is nonsense. But they say so, so, we need then, I guess, to start to add these so the coral can grow better based on mostly gibberish nonsense of it is in the coral skeleton thus corals need it.

Silica= 750 ppm mean

Boron = 75 ppm mean

Titanium = 70 ppm

and we are going to need some Manganese, Barium and Uranium :)



Edit:

Sorry, I spaced it out here, they are going to need some Lead also ~ 50 ppm. The other 3 above maybe 10 ppm each and crap loads of Iron maybe 500 ppm it is less then Silica.

A head of time



Cliff

These are for you found them by accident :)

Tiny Polyps Need Two Kinds Of Carbon To Survive Coral Bleaching
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080304101436.htm

Dissolved Organic Matter In Water Column May Influence Coral Health
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080304101433.htm
What you talk'n bought Boomer we do not want to add silica

[HighlandReefer]

Thanks for the articles Boomer. ;)

The more the scientists research the actual species of symbiotic algae and bacteria found in the coral tissues and in the coral slime layer the more they find that these symbiotic species vary from location to location in the same coral specie. The scientists also find that increasing the dissolved organic carbon levels, heavy metal levels, increasing temperatures over 83 degrees, increasing phosphate & increasing nitrate to high levels......etc, all cause changes in the symbiotic species within or on the exterior of coral.

The problem that arises is that the symbiotic specie changes can cause disease in coral as well as color changes. The same specie of coral may be effected by high water temperature in one location and not in another location due to the difference in symbionts within the same species. The same can occur with other water parameter changes to extremes.

I hear of very advanced hobbyists that occasionally complain about a severe bleaching or necrosis of coral tissues within some of their corals that have grown beautifully for years without problems and ask why this is occurring. My thoughts point to the possibilities mentioned above. ;)