Ammonia and Nitrite, is this possible?

[dntx5b9]

Hi, I just upgraded my 20G to a 36G 10 days ago. Basically moved everything from the old tank to the new tank. Used about 22 Gallons of new water and used the old water to fill rest of the tank. Everything went well and things are looking good.

I ordered 20 lbs of LR online and got them yesterday. They were supposed to be cured. The rocks looked good. I gave them a good rinse and put them in the tank. I already had about 35lb of LR in the tank. Anyhow, 24 hours later, I tested the water, and ammonia is through the roof, but nitrite is zero. Is this possible? All the tank inhabitants seem all right. Am I in for a big trouble or would things be OK?

[PoukieBear]

I would do a water change, just in case.

The rocks may have not been cured like you were told. In that case, you are going to have a cycle.

Either that, or your test kits are off. What kind are you using?

[bertoni]

I agree that the rock seems to have some die-off, or the ammonia test is incorrect. What is the actual recorded level?

I'd probably do some water changes and add an ammonia neutralizer like Amquel, especially if any animals start showing problems.

[dntx5b9]

I am also guessing that rocks aren't really cured. I am using an AP ammonia test kit. The kit is supposed to be good for both FW and SW. I tested the kit with the FW and it seems fine. The color keeps changing for my SW test, but it seems something like 4 ppm or higher! But how come is the nitrite level zero? How long does it take before ammonia breaks down to nitrite? Does it make sense to have ammonia level that high and have no nitirite?

[paradicio]

I would cycle the rock in a bucket with a pump and heater then once it's ready (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate all 0) stick it back in the main tank.

[bertoni]

The test kit might be fine.

The tank might never show any nitrite. Live rock comes with a lot of microbes, and the tank already had a working filter, so I'd just do the water changes and hope for the best. Only the ammonia is toxic, in any case.

[revenge53142]

NITRITE IS DEFINATLY TOXIC
when a cycle begins beneficial bacteria breakdown ammonia
and convert it into nitrite
then similar but different bacteria break that down into nitrate
ammonia, nitrite, & nitrate are all toxins
ammonia=the most toxic
nitrite= not as toxic, BUT STILL TOXIC
nitrate= not very toxic but is to sensitive corals, also causes
alge bloom
are you using the same filter & filter media?
when you "rinsed the rocks" did you use RO water?

if you destoryed enough bacteria on either the new rocks
or filter media
your tank will kick off a cycle

[Skylove0618]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8428345#post8428345 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dntx5b9

I ordered 20 lbs of LR online and got them yesterday. They were supposed to be cured.

If you ordered the live rock online, then the rock spent about 24 hours out of water during shipment. Regardless of whether it was purchased cured or un-cured, it will experience die-off, and should have been re-cured in a bucket or something before it was introduced into the display tank.

The LR I got a couple months ago from an online source only took about three weeks to cure after I got it. I'm thinking all you can really do is either remove the rock and cure it somewhere else or stay on top of the water changes.

[jdieck]

Remember that Ammonia comes before Nitrite so it is possible to only have Ammonia when the cycle is starting and the bacteria has not catched up to the spike so you are on for some time. keep water changes on to keep the Ammonia below 0.25 ppm max, if you can't keep up then take the new rock out and cycle it in a different container.

[dntx5b9]

At this point, I will do small daily water changes. Thanks for the replies. Ammonia is definitely going down. Still no nitirite.

[conefree]

If you do end up using Amquel, make sure you toss in an airstone to keep oxygen levels up. Amquel reduces oxygen in the tank as it works.

[ralphie16]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8441631#post8441631 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by revenge53142
NITRITE IS DEFINATLY TOXIC
when a cycle begins beneficial bacteria breakdown ammonia
and convert it into nitrite
then similar but different bacteria break that down into nitrate
ammonia, nitrite, & nitrate are all toxins
ammonia=the most toxic
nitrite= not as toxic, BUT STILL TOXIC
nitrate= not very toxic but is to sensitive corals, also causes
alge bloom
are you using the same filter & filter media?
when you "rinsed the rocks" did you use RO water?

if you destoryed enough bacteria on either the new rocks
or filter media
your tank will kick off a cycle

I might have to disgree with you. My field of expertise is really biomedical engineering but I took quite a few chem and bio classes as a grad student so I may remember it a bit off, but I recall learning that NITRITE is not toxic to marine livestock. This is mainly due to the pH value of the water after we mix in the salt, mine registers at 8.15. At this pH, nitrite is rendered pretty much harmless.

Now, if there was enough nitrite in, say, a freshwater aquarium, that would be detrimental to the livestock because the pH values would be much lower. That is probably why most freshwater tank owners rely so heavily on biological filters like wet drys and trickle filters (aka Biowheel, etc).

[Nykademus]

In your original post you stated that you rinsed the rock before putting it in the tank.

Was that in freshwater by chance? If so, the fresh would have killed most of the bacteria on the rock, creating the need to cure it again.

As far as controlling the cycle that you are going through.. just like everyone is saying.. water changes.. maybe toss a bag of carbon in your filter/sump.. and keep an eye on your levels.

Good luck!

[dustin323]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8442898#post8442898 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ralphie16
I might have to disgree with you. My field of expertise is really biomedical engineering but I took quite a few chem and bio classes as a grad student so I may remember it a bit off, but I recall learning that NITRITE is not toxic to marine livestock. This is mainly due to the pH value of the water after we mix in the salt, mine registers at 8.15. At this pH, nitrite is rendered pretty much harmless.

Now, if there was enough nitrite in, say, a freshwater aquarium, that would be detrimental to the livestock because the pH values would be much lower. That is probably why most freshwater tank owners rely so heavily on biological filters like wet drys and trickle filters (aka Biowheel, etc).

Ammonia definately is the most harmful, but from my understandings is that NitIte & NitrAte can be harmful to livestock if at high enough level for a long enough time. Just not as lethal as ammonia. Here is what I read off my Tetra Test Kit;

Why test?
NitrIte is the resultant second step of the breakdown of toxic ammonia which is carried out by specialized microorganisms which colonize your aquarium filter. Related microorganisms also breakdown nitrIte to its resultant product nitrAte.
Too much nitrIte in your aquarium water can be very harmful to fish as it is absorbed by the blood reducing its capacity to transport oxygen around the body. Continuous exposure produces a condition know as "brown-vlood diesease" where nearly all hemoglobin in the fishes blood has been bound with nitrIte effectively starving the fish of exygen.
High measurements of nitrIte indicate that the "biological filtration" process occuring in your aquarium filter is not fully mature or is not functioning correctly.

I'm not 100% for sure on how exactly everything works just saying what I've been told & what the Tetra Test kit states.

[dntx5b9]

I also have read that nitrite in SW tanks are not nearly as toxic as in FW tanks. Anyhow, I used my SW tank water to rinse the rocks, so I hope I didn't kill any bacteria during rinsing.

Also, what is the advantage of using carbon for this issue? Thanks again.

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8443477#post8443477 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dustin323
Ammonia definately is the most harmful, but from my understandings is that NitIte & NitrAte can be harmful to livestock if at high enough level for a long enough time. Just not as lethal as ammonia. Here is what I read off my Tetra Test Kit;

Why test?
NitrIte is the resultant second step of the breakdown of toxic ammonia which is carried out by specialized microorganisms which colonize your aquarium filter. Related microorganisms also breakdown nitrIte to its resultant product nitrAte.
Too much nitrIte in your aquarium water can be very harmful to fish as it is absorbed by the blood reducing its capacity to transport oxygen around the body. Continuous exposure produces a condition know as "brown-vlood diesease" where nearly all hemoglobin in the fishes blood has been bound with nitrIte effectively starving the fish of exygen.
High measurements of nitrIte indicate that the "biological filtration" process occuring in your aquarium filter is not fully mature or is not functioning correctly.

I'm not 100% for sure on how exactly everything works just saying what I've been told & what the Tetra Test kit states.

Dustin:

That Tetra statment is only valid for Fresh Water, which by the way they should have noted that.

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8443589#post8443589 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dntx5b9

Also, what is the advantage of using carbon for this issue? Thanks again.

For Ammonia and Nitrite... Nothing; but during the nitrification process some carried organics in the detritus may form some organic nitrogenous compounds and the decomposition may create some Hydrogen Sufide specially in anaerobic parts of the curing rock, some of those compounds can be removed by the carbon.

[dntx5b9]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8443782#post8443782 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jdieck
For Ammonia and Nitrite... Nothing; but during the nitrification process some carried organics in the detritus may form some organic nitrogenous compounds and the decomposition may create some Hydrogen Sufide specially in anaerobic parts of the curing rock, some of those compounds can be removed by the carbon.

Cool! I do have some carbon that I am not using. I will throw that in the filter. Thanks a bunch!

[BreefMe]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8428345#post8428345 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dntx5b9
Hi, I just upgraded my 20G to a 36G 10 days ago. Basically moved everything from the old tank to the new tank. Used about 22 Gallons of new water and used the old water to fill rest of the tank. Everything went well and things are looking good.

I ordered 20 lbs of LR online and got them yesterday. They were supposed to be cured. The rocks looked good. I gave them a good rinse and put them in the tank. I already had about 35lb of LR in the tank. Anyhow, 24 hours later, I tested the water, and ammonia is through the roof, but nitrite is zero. Is this possible? All the tank inhabitants seem all right. Am I in for a big trouble or would things be OK?

I just did a calcualated risk like you. what you describe is completely normal. There is always going to be die off in transit. The rocks aren't shipped in moving water, they are shipped in wet newspaper typically. This and the falling temperatures of fall will contribute to die off within the rock.

You were wise to thoroughly rinse the rock in SW. This reamoved a lot of amonia, but not all of it. The amonia spike you have noticed is normal. You will see a similar Nitrite spike as well. Frequent water changes can help, but ultimately the tank will have to cycle again.

If you have damsels, they can likely withstand the rapid change to the environment. I can not vouge for anything else.

Ideally, when buying rock on-line, you should set up a quarantine system for your rock. Put a half inch of Live sand in the bottom of a trash can lined with plastic bags (good ones). Get the SW content correct ahead of the rock delivery. Put a powerhead in there to keep things moving around; if it is cold; add a heater. Wash and put the rock in the trash can when it arrives. A large part or nearly all of the cycle can be isolated to the garbage can.

When Amonia and Nitrite levels return to normal you can easily transfer the rock into which ever tank you want with no fear of spiking the system.

[dntx5b9]

5th day after adding the LR. Ammonia level has gone down quite a bit. I think within the next couple of days it will completely go away, but for the first time, I tested the trace of Nitrite. .25ppm according to the test kit. So BreefMe was right in saying that I am going to see the Nitrite spike. I wonder how high it's going to spike for the next few days. However, since Nitrite is not as harmful as ammonia and I haven't lost anyone during the ammonia spike, I feel safe. I will keep you posted in how things end up in the tank.

[Poorcollegereef]

well, for me, I dont care who says that live rock is cured, I cycle it because if it was shipped it has die off and one has to start over from the beginning. Now if you got it from a good lfs with a 30 min drive, I would atleast QT to make sure there is no unwanted hitchikers.
There is no such thing as cured rock unless you cure it yourself.

As far as the nitrite argument, I would say from my experience that while it does not have the same deadliness as ammonia, nitrite can kill. I had a nitrite spike about 1 month after my tank finished cycling and it took about 3 weeks to get it to 0 but over that period my softies at the time were really stressed and most did not survive a month afterwards and im talking about zoas too.

dntx hope the tank is better, the nitrites can be fickle but all ammonia will convert, the only question will be the concentration and how fast that becomes nitrate. My guess that it will be no more than .50-1.0ppm if you have kept up with water changes.

Although you might not loose your fish, pay careful attention to your corals to see how they are doing.

[dntx5b9]

Finally, no trace of ammonia nor nitrite. I will monitor the levels for the next couple of days to see how things progress. No casualties. Corals seem alright as well. Phew!

[DrBegalke]

Cured rocks quickly become "uncured" (i.e. have dead stuff on them) when shipped.

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8460593#post8460593 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dntx5b9
Finally, no trace of ammonia nor nitrite. I will monitor the levels for the next couple of days to see how things progress. No casualties. Corals seem alright as well. Phew!

:thumbsup: