Double end MH vs. Single end MH

[Hurley12]

Is there a difference, if so which is better?

[HelloLights]

Hi Hurley12,

There are a few differences. They both have advantages in certain applications. Obviously there are size differences. A DE lamp will be better for smaller systems because of there small size where in a larger system this wouldnt be important. But rather than the actual size of the lamp, the reflector size is the big difference. SE reflectors can be very big and DE can be smaller and more compact.

DE lamps need to be glass shielded because of UV that the lamps release, SE do not need to be shielded (although its still a good idea). This glass has an effect on the amount of usable light that is released as well.

These are just a couple of factors. Overall the choice should be made depending on the system your putting them in. If your using a pendant system you'd most likely want to go with DE versions because they tend to look nicer.

Give us a call and we can go over more differences and help you to make a choice based on your needs. 866-969-7333.

Thanks,
HL

[hahnmeister]

Reflectors are part of it, yes. A wider reflector will sacrifice some intensity up at the top near the bulb because it spreads out the light more, but a narrower reflector will concentrate the light more at the top, but not penetrate as well as a wider reflector.

That being said, wide reflectors are usually better because the extremes that a halide might have within 6" of the bulb are too much for any coral. This is why reflectors like the Lumenarc and Lumenmax are so popular. They really do make the tank look brighter because they are getting more light down into the tank.
Wider reflectors are available for both DE and SE bulbs... so I wouldnt weigh in the reflector as much. HL sells a nice reflector known as the lumenmax 3 by SLS. A little pricey, but one of the best out there. http://www.hellolights.com/25lumax3hqip.html

As for the bulbs themselves... SE are far superior in almost every way to DE bulbs. SE bulbs were first designed to be used in vertical orientation in those high-bay fixtures and bell pendants you see in warehouse stores. Mounting a SE bulb on its side kills its longevity and output right off the bat unless its one of the rare European high-pressure bulbs. Ushios/ BLV / Nepturions (except the CWA line), Aqualine 10,000Ks, and Aquaconnect 14,000Ks are perhaps the only high-pressure halides out there, and only come in 400watts. All high pressure bulbs otherwise only come in 250wattDE and 150wattDE. High pressure bulbs are also known as HQI or pulse-start bulbs. They use better ballasts (M80/ HQI/ pulse start) in comparison to the inferior american probe start bulbs (M58, single ended, probe start), and better bulbs to go with. Even on an electronic ballast, SE bulbs wont last as long as a comparable DE bulb on a HQI ballast. DE bulbs are superior in every way, no doubt about it. They last longer, they will color shift less, and put out more light. A DE bulb, even with the UV glass will have a higher output than the same bulb in SE with an electronic ballast (the best ballast you can run a SE bulb on). Some people try to 'cheat' and run SE bulbs on HQI ballasts are the best combo. This is a combo to avoid however. This will result in a very high output for the first months of operation (often much more than a HQI bulb/ballast combo at first), but the high current will wear out that SE bulb very fast... like running a car on jet-fuel. Running a SE bulb might seem great for about 3 months, but after that, the output goes down fast... often only 40% is left after 9-12 months.

[snslarison]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8507710#post8507710 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
Reflectors are part of it, yes. A wider reflector will sacrifice some intensity up at the top near the bulb because it spreads out the light more, but a narrower reflector will concentrate the light more at the top, but not penetrate as well as a wider reflector.

That being said, wide reflectors are usually better because the extremes that a halide might have within 6" of the bulb are too much for any coral. This is why reflectors like the Lumenarc and Lumenmax are so popular. They really do make the tank look brighter because they are getting more light down into the tank.
Wider reflectors are available for both DE and SE bulbs... so I wouldnt weigh in the reflector as much. HL sells a nice reflector known as the lumenmax 3 by SLS. A little pricey, but one of the best out there. http://www.hellolights.com/25lumax3hqip.html

As for the bulbs themselves... SE are far superior in almost every way to DE bulbs. SE bulbs were first designed to be used in vertical orientation in those high-bay fixtures and bell pendants you see in warehouse stores. Mounting a SE bulb on its side kills its longevity and output right off the bat unless its one of the rare European high-pressure bulbs. Ushios/ BLV / Nepturions (except the CWA line), Aqualine 10,000Ks, and Aquaconnect 14,000Ks are perhaps the only high-pressure halides out there, and only come in 400watts. All high pressure bulbs otherwise only come in 250wattDE and 150wattDE. High pressure bulbs are also known as HQI or pulse-start bulbs. They use better ballasts (M80/ HQI/ pulse start) in comparison to the inferior american probe start bulbs (M58, single ended, probe start), and better bulbs to go with. Even on an electronic ballast, SE bulbs wont last as long as a comparable DE bulb on a HQI ballast. DE bulbs are superior in every way, no doubt about it. They last longer, they will color shift less, and put out more light. A DE bulb, even with the UV glass will have a higher output than the same bulb in SE with an electronic ballast (the best ballast you can run a SE bulb on). Some people try to 'cheat' and run SE bulbs on HQI ballasts are the best combo. This is a combo to avoid however. This will result in a very high output for the first months of operation (often much more than a HQI bulb/ballast combo at first), but the high current will wear out that SE bulb very fast... like running a car on jet-fuel. Running a SE bulb might seem great for about 3 months, but after that, the output goes down fast... often only 40% is left after 9-12 months.

Hurley12,

Allow me to introduce you to the new Hellolights RC lighting correspondent hahnmeister. :lol:

Very well put hahnmeister. Like you said, for me it comes down to basic geometry. A DE lamp allows manufacturers to make a smaller reflector that has excellent reflective properties. Achieving the same with SE lamps is definitely possible but the reflectors get to be pretty large and rather unsightly (i.e. Lumen Arc). Same idea as in fluorescents- T5s are so great because of potential reflective possibilities. We could create the same effect with VHOs perhaps, but the reflectors would be much larger and wouldn’t work as well for our hobby because of typical size restraints over our tanks.

I totally agree with what you said. You sure know your stuff.

Scott

[Hellolights1]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8507710#post8507710 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
Reflectors are part of it, yes. A wider reflector will sacrifice some intensity up at the top near the bulb because it spreads out the light more, but a narrower reflector will concentrate the light more at the top, but not penetrate as well as a wider reflector.

That being said, wide reflectors are usually better because the extremes that a halide might have within 6" of the bulb are too much for any coral. This is why reflectors like the Lumenarc and Lumenmax are so popular. They really do make the tank look brighter because they are getting more light down into the tank.
Wider reflectors are available for both DE and SE bulbs... so I wouldnt weigh in the reflector as much. HL sells a nice reflector known as the lumenmax 3 by SLS. A little pricey, but one of the best out there. http://www.hellolights.com/25lumax3hqip.html

As for the bulbs themselves... SE are far superior in almost every way to DE bulbs. SE bulbs were first designed to be used in vertical orientation in those high-bay fixtures and bell pendants you see in warehouse stores. Mounting a SE bulb on its side kills its longevity and output right off the bat unless its one of the rare European high-pressure bulbs. Ushios/ BLV / Nepturions (except the CWA line), Aqualine 10,000Ks, and Aquaconnect 14,000Ks are perhaps the only high-pressure halides out there, and only come in 400watts. All high pressure bulbs otherwise only come in 250wattDE and 150wattDE. High pressure bulbs are also known as HQI or pulse-start bulbs. They use better ballasts (M80/ HQI/ pulse start) in comparison to the inferior american probe start bulbs (M58, single ended, probe start), and better bulbs to go with. Even on an electronic ballast, SE bulbs wont last as long as a comparable DE bulb on a HQI ballast. DE bulbs are superior in every way, no doubt about it. They last longer, they will color shift less, and put out more light. A DE bulb, even with the UV glass will have a higher output than the same bulb in SE with an electronic ballast (the best ballast you can run a SE bulb on). Some people try to 'cheat' and run SE bulbs on HQI ballasts are the best combo. This is a combo to avoid however. This will result in a very high output for the first months of operation (often much more than a HQI bulb/ballast combo at first), but the high current will wear out that SE bulb very fast... like running a car on jet-fuel. Running a SE bulb might seem great for about 3 months, but after that, the output goes down fast... often only 40% is left after 9-12 months.

Well said. Awsome Response!

[hahnmeister]

Oh crap. I just realized I did a massive typo. In the first line, second paragraph: should read "DE are far superior in almost every way to SE bulbs"... which is something I hope you would realize if you read the rest of the paragraph. Oops, sorry. Hope I didnt confuse anyone.

Lol... hello lights lighting correspondent. I just wanted to pass along the important stuff. I hate to see friends buying crappy lighting that they end up hating and having to buy more again later. Like the guy who started with a 55g and decided a 4x65wattPC unit was the best idea... I tried to push the 4x54wattT5 unit, but he just wouldnt listen. Now the coralife PC unit is in the basement, and the 4 bulb T5 retrofit is on that tank. I just learned as much as I could from the lighting engineers around me, as well as the findings of Sanjay, the occasional insight from PaulErik, and inside info from some lighting mfg owners from Germany.

Dont get me started on T5s though. Its a shame US companies (and the consumers) are so slow to adopt this vastly superior lighting technology. I commend companies like Icecap and Tek for making individual parabolic reflector T5 units, and wish others like PFO, Current, and Coralife would quit trying to make a fast buck and really make some nice products (then again, PFO is busy with the LED thing). T5s are superior to halides in every way, even output wise (unless you need that 2500 PPFD peak that 400watt halides can have close to the bulb for some coral... yeah, right), but proper reflectors need to be used as well as enough cooling to keep that bulb at 95 degrees. Teks lack the cooling and lose about 20-25% of their output (passive venting isnt enough) because of it. There are plenty of tanks in Germany for instance that have only 1000watts of T5 over 500gallons of SPS reef... something that would take at least 1600 watts of halide to get close to and still not have as much light.

If Hello Lights really wants to rake it in... they should consider carrying fauna-marin and aquascience T5s (maybe even Aquaconnect). They would kill SLS teks and possibly ATIs from what I have heard, and as of yet, dont have a dealer in the US. Much better than that crap that CurrentUSA and Coralife try to peddle...lol.

[Hurley12]

Wow thanks a lot, that is awesome advise, I did have to do a double take when you said the DE and the SE were both far superior, haha. Your second post poses another question T5's over halides which is better, or is a combo of the two the way to go.

[hahnmeister]

Personally,that is a hard one to respond to...

Output wise, T5s are superior... ask any lighting engineer. Not just that, but you know how 6500K and 10,000Ks are the bulbs of choice for output with halides because 15,000Ks and 20,000Ks often cut the output in half? Well, not so with T5s. The blue+ bulbs by ATI/Geisemann/and Aquascience ( made by Sylvania/Narva ) have outputs that rival the 11,000/12,000K aquablue and daylight bulbs. And if you really want a kick in the output, use some sun pro GE6500K or 3000K bulbs. They have monsterous outputs considering their wattage. They easily smoke PC bulbs and VHO... a 4x24wattT5 retrifit will outdo a 4x65wattPC fixture. They compete with most halides most of the time (depending on bulb selection... a 6500K halide has a much higher output than a 20,000K, but is also doesnt have a spectrum most people like). With newer and better units like the ATI powermoduls, halides cant even compete. The bulbs also last much longer, and are much cheaper. Sometimes the initial investment for a decent setup is more, but in the long term, between electrical savings and bulb replacement costs, the T5s pay for themselves fast. If you currently have PC, it still makes more economic sense to get rid of it and get a T5 fixture. I did the math when someone in another thread said that old phrase 'upgrading for small amounts of efficiency often never pays for itself in the long run'... but I did the math and showed how, in his case even, that replacing his 4x96wattPC unit with a 4x54wattT5 unit would actually save him about $200 per year.

I have a 250wattHQI pheonix 14,000K on one 40B. Its not the best output (well, it is for any halide that is blue), but it does rival many 10,000K bulbs... in fact its brighter than a ushio 10,000K or 14,000K. On another 40B under that, I used a 6x39wattTek. The tank below is visibly brighter than the halide... easily. I even color matched the bulbs... 2x aquablue, 2x blue+, 2x actinic03. Thats actually a pretty weak representation of T5s... no sun bulbs, 2x actinics, only aquablues for daylight, etc... but it still visiblly easily outdoes the halide with a nearly identical spectrum. I have some plating millipora corals that normally like to be within 6" of a 250watt halide or they lose their bright pink and blue colors. Well, under the T5s, they have colored in completely bright blue. And this isnt the half of it. Upon seeing my results, a good friend of mine decided to replace his 250watt halide over his 40b with a Tek light as well. He only bought a 4 bulb unit, but hes using 2xblue+ and 2x GE6500K bulbs... two of the highest output bulbs you can get for T5s. The tank looks great (I was shocked how nice actually because of so much 6500K) like a 12,000K look, and the corals love it. And because of his bulb selection, his 4 bulb unit is much brighter than my 6 bulbs. And keep in mind that the Tek scored 1/2 the output of an ATI fixture with the same bulbs... some of the european models are just that good. The thing that took me about JD's tank was the coloration. He has less blue, yet his pink cat's paw, stylos, etc all look very vibrant. His GSP and green slimers were both glowing green, etc. his blue corals, a bottle brush and a frag of my milli, were looking nice and blue... but I have more blue, right?

Heck, some complain that their 14,000K pheonix bulbs 'wash out' the colors of their corals too much. I have to agree somewhat. My first pheonix bulb didnt, but the one I have now seems to make everything fade. Growth is great, but blues are all 'chalky' and pastel. It seems that the pheonic has loads of blue, but little actinic, and little of anything else for that matter... perhaps its output is too 'narrow'.

Funny, thats what many T5 users complain of. If you look at Iwan's 211g thread in the large tank forum, you will see a prime example of this... the corals look good, but different. Kind of a neon pastel look.

I have a buddy with a 120g who uses both halide and T5s. (actually, I have a few now, but his was the first and the best example). He uses dual 250wattDE Ushio 10,000Ks and 4x54wattT5s!!! The T5s run two actinics, and two blue+. The tank's light is like no other. It looks like a 'day-20,000K' and very nice. Loads of blue, but not lacking in red, orange, green, etc. You know how halides can give some corals a really deep intense coloration, esp at the tips? Well, now combine that with that neon-pastel of the T5s... WOW. He can take a coral from anyone's tank and within weeks its growing faster and with more color than anyone else can come close to... its that good. All his corals are glowing neon intense colors. I cant seem to get anything close to that with just T5s or halides alone... but also keep in mind that I havent actually added any 6500K or 3000K bulbs yet... Im running mostly blue bulbs and I am sure that has something to do with it.

So T5s and MHs seem to be the golden duo. I would suggest about 2watts of MH to 1 watt of T5, with 10,000K for the halide, and blue+ and actinics for the T5s.

As it turns out, there is a good reason for this. With most of the bluer T5 bulbs, even the aquablue/12,000K/11,000K bulbs used for daylight, there is little to no warmer spectrums. When you look at a halide, even a 20,000K has a slim, but still present amount of all spectrums. T5s do not. This is what causes some of the colors to fade. So recently, more people with T5s have been adding a 3000K or 6500K bulb (or a ATI sun pro if you can find it) to the mix. Pink and red colored corals like cat's paw and birdsnest were previously faded and pastel looking, but now, like my friend JD's tank, are very rich in color.

So, T5s and MH are a great combo, but I know, I just know that the only reason could be also covered with a sun/3000K/6500K bulb as well. Its a matter of personal choice. I am debating that in my next setup FWIW. a 42"x42"x20"h reef. I came up with those dimensions because its pretty much the largest tank I can run with just two 250wattDE halides. Then after seeing the T5+Mh results, I decided some T5s would be added. Then I decided that with T5s as well, I would only need one halide. But then that means a spotlight in the middle with the halide, and nowhere else... so the halide is starting to lose importance fast. Esp since I know if I change the tank's dimensions to 4'x3'x20"h and just used all 4' T5s with a sun pro bulb mixed in or something, I wouldnt even miss that halide... or would I?!?!?! I have been a halide user for so long that the idea of having a successful reef w/o at least some seems alien to me, but I know its something I might just have to hold my breath on...

For example, in German forums, T5s are replacing everything. Here's a tank with nothing but 10x54wattT5s... thats about 1000watts only over a 430g...
http://archiv.korallenriff.de/Lichttest/06_t5_test_sept_startbeck1.jpg

I was wary myself that T5s wouldnt be able to produce the same peaks of intensity that halides do near the bulb for some of the super high-light millis I have... but the frags under my T5s seem even better than 6" under my halides...

Color-wise, I know that simply adding a couple 3000K or 6500K bulbs into my T5 mix as well would do everything that a 10,000K halide would, except for 108watts rather than 250.

[snslarison]

Thanks for the input hahnmeister. Your right however the HL in house EE leans towards MH when he compares the two. I couldnt do his reasoning justice so I wont try to elaborate.

For me however, I use MH supplemented with T5.;)

Scott

[hahnmeister]

Yeah, Im 50/50 as well. In large applications, T5s are preferred because of the lower heat output... something that really helps with A/C costs. They also have less of a current draw than halides, and with large factories and such, where power isnt just charged in kwh, this starts to add up. A 400watt halide might suck up 4-6 amps, with a 4x54wattT5 setup only wanting 1/4 of that. Its not 100%, but all the home depots and some other stores seem to prefer it.

[Hurley12]

This has been more help than you could imagine, I am relatively new to the reef world and any help is great, but this has been more than I could ask for. I think I will go with a combo of the two though.

[hahnmeister]

Yeah. I cant wait for those new maristars by SLS to come out.

Im also hoping Sam will honor his agreement with me when I challenged him to test the Teks w/ and w/o fans (and w/ and w/o the sheild) to see how much output was dropping due to heat buildup. He said that if the test results were significant, that fans would be included in the new Tek Lights. INCLUDED. I think he was overconfident though, because when the tests were done, and a 10-20% loss in output was shown due to no active venting, Sam said that an 'add-on' fan system would be made for the new Tek light. That sounds good, but its very hard to have a passive vented system that you can adapt to forced venting with an 'add on' kit. Small holes all over the place mean you cant control the airflow like you would with fans... so an 'add-on' is not a viable solution. The fixture needs to be designed with the intention of using a fan from step one.

I ended up using a cross flow fan from a computer case to vent my lights... and sure enough... the light levels increased. I am considering drilling dual 120mm blowholes into the top of the unit and running a 12v adapter with some rheostat knobs into the top of the unit to make it a permanent mod. Or just start making my own T5 fixtures.

What Im getting at: many MH/T5 combo systems dont pay attention to cooling the T5s enough. Many see T5s as soo cool in comparison, so why would it matter, right? But it does. 95degrees will make the bulbs last longer, and brighter. Many MH/T5 units squeeze the T5s alongside the halides, cooking the T5s in the process. The same is something to consider with retrofitting. Be sure to keep the T5s well vented, and also with a fan or two... one for sucking air out of the canopy if that is the case, and another blowing right over the bulbs. Many people here have problems with their T5s not lasting as long as the advertised 2+ years of service use. Its because of heat.

[Hurley12]

Im glad you mentioned cooling I would have never thought of it, I will be retrofitting, how far from the MH should I keep the T5's

[HelloLights]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8518291#post8518291 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Hurley12
Im glad you mentioned cooling I would have never thought of it, I will be retrofitting, how far from the MH should I keep the T5's

We reccomend keeping them as far away as you canopy will allow. Good ventallation is a must to get the most out of your T5s.

Thanks,

HL