Experienced SPS keepers, are you using GFO's?

[Greg Hiller]

Are you using Granular Ferric Oxide (GFO) phosphate removers?

[SunnyX]

Rowaphos here. Never seen a difference either way but I still run it.

[REEF-DADDY]

I use the generic stuff from Dr foster and Smith. I wonder sometimes if my po4 is too low and out of balance with my No3

[alde]

I use Phosban with good results. It allows me to feed more without the problems associated with too much PO4.

[gcarroll]

I am using Warner Marine PhosAR. It is the best I have uses so far. It is the first GFO that has got my phos down to 0.00 on the Hanna colorimeter. The best I ever did with Rowaphos or Phosban was 0.03

[Gary Majchrzak]

Occasionally I will use a GFO PO4 remover. (Not an option in the poll.)

[fishdoc11]

I tried Phosban soon after it came out. I had some coral deaths like lots of other people at the time.......possibly from using too much and not rinsing well. I haven't used any since and don't really see a need with good skimming and maintenance practices.
FWIW, Chris

[Kip]

i use rowa along with good skimming and frequent water changes

allows me to keep my corals from starving.

[ReeferAl]

I bought a bucket of the stuff at about 1/4 the cost that should last me a couple of years. I was warned though by the person referring me to the site: "don't tell them that it's for an aquarium. If you do they'll tell you they can't sell it to you". Basically, they have an exclusive arrangement with someone who repackages it for aquarium use.
Of course, we are on well water and I only use it to remove arsenic from the well water, never for the aquarium. :D

Allen

[jnfallon]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8460965#post8460965 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReeferAl
I bought a bucket of the stuff at about 1/4 the cost that should last me a couple of years. I was warned though by the person referring me to the site: "don't tell them that it's for an aquarium. If you do they'll tell you they can't sell it to you". Basically, they have an exclusive arrangement with someone who repackages it for aquarium use.
Of course, we are on well water and I only use it to remove arsenic from the well water, never for the aquarium. :D

Allen

Link, please?

[SuperNerd]

:lmao: Yes, link please.

[DaddyJax]

I dont use it. I dont see any reason other than temporary removal.

[Kip]

... why you'd use it continuously.

any tank is constantly importing po4. there are a variety of ways to deal with it with the bioload dictating what is best per system. For my system, fluidizing rowa is the most direct way to export po4.

[REEF-DADDY]

Kip I am with you on this one. My tank is very heavily stocked, I fed heavily, and have a keen focus on nutrient export. For me running a GFO is like good insurance. I don’t need it, but its nice to know its there. I wonder how many of use would use such a product for No3 if one exsisted……….

[dvanacker]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8459837#post8459837 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gary Majchrzak
Occasionally I will use a GFO PO4 remover. (Not an option in the poll.)

What exactly do you think phosban and rowaphos are??

[jy544]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8460965#post8460965 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReeferAl
I bought a bucket of the stuff at about 1/4 the cost that should last me a couple of years. I was warned though by the person referring me to the site: "don't tell them that it's for an aquarium. If you do they'll tell you they can't sell it to you". Basically, they have an exclusive arrangement with someone who repackages it for aquarium use.
Of course, we are on well water and I only use it to remove arsenic from the well water, never for the aquarium. :D

Allen


I need some to get arsenic out of my well water also. Do you have the link?:D

[Kip]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8464394#post8464394 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by REEF-DADDY
I wonder how many of use would use such a product for No3 if one exsisted……….

i submerge tridacnatrateban 24/7/365 :)

[ObscurityKnocks]

What exactly do you think phosban and rowaphos are??


He was refering to ocassionaly instead of constantly

[twon8]

never had a need for it, my po4 and nitrates are low, only algae is on the glass.

[DaddyJax]

I personally think that it srtips more than P04 out of the water.

[twon8]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8465569#post8465569 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DaddyJax
I personally think that it srtips more than P04 out of the water.

i assumed that it was commonly accepted that it sucks out alk.

[Kip]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8465583#post8465583 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by twon8
i assumed that it was commonly accepted that it sucks out alk.

moot point with a dialed c-reactor or any other dosing regimen

[chadfarmer]

Yes, I use Rowaphos
Yes, I use Phosban


but i used zeo also


but i the phosban i buy the big container and split with friend is half price that the smaller containers

[REEF-DADDY]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8465080#post8465080 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kip
i submerge tridacnatrateban 24/7/365 :)

me too ,mine is 14"!

[twon8]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8465681#post8465681 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kip
moot point with a dialed c-reactor or any other dosing regimen

not if the person is dosing and not expecting the decline.

[Fliger]

I have ROWA mixed with high grade carbon in a fluidized reactor and always notice an improvement when I change out the media. Great stuff.

I'd try that stuff gcaroll talked about but I have a 5L bucket of ROWAphos. :lol:

[ReeferAl]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8464834#post8464834 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jy544
I need some to get arsenic out of my well water also. Do you have the link?:D

For those wanting the link, I obtained it from www.usfilter.com
I believe they were changing their name, but I don't remember the new company name. The old link may still work. It is now a subsidiary of Siemens Co.
The media I bought was GEH101. It is a 35lb bucket of damp media, similar to Rowa or Phoslock.

It is "NOT for use in aquaria".
They may not ask what you want it for but if they do don't say for your tank.

Allen

[ReeferAl]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8465569#post8465569 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DaddyJax
I personally think that it srtips more than P04 out of the water.

GFO media will definitely remove other ions from the water. I know it removes silicate and arsenic in addition to phosphate. The media is used in industry to bind arsenic in wastewater before discharge into sewer systems. I'm sure there are other ions it will also bind, such as perhaps some other heavy metals? Frankly, that may not be a bad thing at all.

Allen

[glassbox-design]

They sell granular Ferric Hydroxide, or GFH. But GFH also has a registered trademark sign next to it. is GFO really GFH -> FeOH ?

e+f

[Greg Hiller]

Thanks all for your participation. Good poll.

[Sk8r]

I never had used it, until I got a buildup so bad my tank glass would film-over with algae in 4 hours. I started running phosban, and what I wipe off stays off, the corals have expanded, and, whether coincidence or not, because I've been messing with it, the skimmer is going great guns. I've fought alk a bit, because I was running a lot [big problem] but nothing dosing the topoff water can't handle.
It's made a big difference in my tank, and I'll be a user from now on.

[ReeferAl]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8468350#post8468350 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Flint&Eric
They sell granular Ferric Hydroxide, or GFH. But GFH also has a registered trademark sign next to it. is GFO really GFH -> FeOH ?

e+f

GFH just stands for "granular ferric hydroxide". The media is sometimes reffererd to as "granular ferric oxide/hydroxide" since the 2 forms are essentially interchangeable.

Allen

[Fliger]

Yeah the reduced film on the glass is the best. When my GFO's "fill" I start to notice more film and harder to clean film. When I change media there is an immediate change. And yes it does drop alk, I only use about 5 heaping TBSP for my tank and it can drop it almost a full point. I mix it with the carbon in an FR509 and it works great. Really important to flush it out with RODI, IMO.

[ReeferAl]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8471608#post8471608 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Fliger
[B]Yeah the reduced film on the glass is the best. [B]

I really think that is the best way to quickly assess nutrient status. I find that I can usually go about 4 days before the glass gets filmed-up enough that I need to clean it. If it needs scraping in 3 days I need to cut back feeding , adjust the skimmer or replace the media. If it goes 5 days or more it usually means I've been busy and haven't been feeding enough.

The key to using this method is that it is an "internal standard" only. That is, it is very useful for assessing the status of your own tank, but can't really be used to compare tanks. One person may clean the glass at the first sign of any film and another may not feel the glass needs cleaning until he can no longer see through it. If both say they clean their glass every 3 days, the nutrient levels in the second tank are very high but quite low in the first.

Allen

[DaddyJax]

It usually takes 3-4 days before I notice any film on my glass as well and I dont use it. I feed twice a day and have between 30-40 fish in my two tanks that are tied up together. I am running BB but I also have a corner dedicated to macro algae. I have a good stock of a wide variety of snails and hermits. I just dont see the need for it. It is like taking antibiotics everyday imo.

[Fliger]

There are lots of ways to accomplish the same goal. Putting an ocean in your living room is an inexact science at best. Using a protein skimmer or running carbon isn't any different than utilizing GFO's. But I do DEFINITELY think they they're not quite as important in a well run barebottom tank, with lots of flow and macro. That's what I have but since I travel quite a bit I don't get to syphon out detritus as frequently as I'd like so the GFO's help if that stuff breaks down during my busier times. :)

[DaddyJax]

I am just not a big fan of chemical filtration.

[Serioussnaps]

it sucks out alk...but only initially..like the first 24 hours...i did alot of tests with this and luckily i could tinker with it as i had no corals in the tank because it is a new project

you should always put the pump that pumps the water out of your reactor in RO/DI water and let it pump through the GFO until the water that comes out is completely clear(i have a bucket dedicated to this and the inside of the white bucket looks completely red).....alot of people dont rinse the media and then complain about coral losses....that isnt the GFO that is just their fault

When you change a GFO...the ph will drop somewhat at the outset....but not too much. IME the alk and ph drop is direct relationship with how much GFO you use. Recommended is 1 gram per gallon of water....i have a total of about 60 g's after live rock and i used 150 grams in a reactor.....ph plummeted...alk went down slightly(i had to add reef builder for the first time in a long time)...this last go round i only used 75 grams(so about the recommended) alk dropped by .2 and ph only went down by .05.....so this is why people like randy say introduce it slowly

Since using a GFO i can feed whatever i want when i want. No algae growth whatsoever. I also add chemi pure carbon in with the GFO in my reactor.

Also very imporant to change it every few weeks...if you slack you will put a new GFO in your tank and then boom...shock to your corals...that is why alot of people see "crashes" they associate with use of GFO's but really it is just their slack husbandry.

GFO undoubtedly remove silicates and i would assume other things as well but nothing important to the health of your livestock. I like the silicate removal as i never see diatom growth in my tank after using a GFO.

IMO no refugium with macro growth or any other "natural export" can even come near the use of a GFO in a reactor in terms of removing phosphates....that is why i use it for me the "natural" removal methods were just sub par for my liking.

[Greg Hiller]

>Also very imporant to change it every few weeks...if you slack you will put a new GFO in your tank and then boom...shock to your corals...that is why alot of people see "crashes" they associate with use of GFO's but really it is just their slack husbandry.<

I'm planning on mixing it with some carbon (to reduce the clumping of the GFO) and putting it in a Phosban reactor. I'm probably going to pack it tight and not try to operate it as a fluidized bed as the GFO I'll be using seems to be a little more friable than Phosban. I'll actually probably have two reactors in series, #1 and #2. When I think #1 is exhausted, or nearly so, #2 will become #1, and the old #1 will be recharged with new substrate and become #2. I'm going to be pretty conservative about how much I use, but my skimmer, and other nutrient control systems are not keeping up to my satisfaction (the algae on the glass is bad in about 3 days) on my 400 gallon system.

[Kip]

conservative is good... start with a small amount and work your way up (i pretty much followed berger's advice on this when i started using rowa) .... i started with a few teaspoons and now run 15 teas changing it out monthly.

i think it would be good to have a filter sock, etc on the outlet of your filter. even after rinsing mine, some media always escapes the foam filters in the chamber and make it into the sump. a filter sock will collect this for ya and keep the return pump from sucking in GFO dust and shooting it all over your corals. (not a good thing at all)

[SERVO]

Don't really worry about PO4's other than water changes. I think that PO4's will green out our acro's IMO.

[fishdoc11]

Well I must admit I am somewhat suprised by the results of this thread/poll so far. I was under the impression that most sps keepers did not use phosphate removers. Maybe my thinking was/is several years old:rolleyes:
I know I have personally answered many questions in this forum about P removers causing coral deaths with that as the primary culprit IMO.

alot of people dont rinse the media and then complain about coral losses....that isnt the GFO that is just their fault

As far as this point I must say that first line in the directions for the jar of Phosban I bought several years ago says...and i quote "Do NOT rinse Phosban before use!" unquote.... IMO this is another case of a product comming out before it was fully tested only to have experienced aquarists figure out how to use it safely using their tanks as guinea pigs. As much respect as I have for Sprung and most of the other "old salt" experts this still dissapoints me.

At any rate I still wonder how many people that have voted in this poll have kept sps for more than a year or two and what coloration in their tanks looks like? I have no doubt in some it is excellent as I recognize several very experienced posters that use P removers with outstanding tanks. In my tanks I have managed to maintain excellent coloration and growth for the last several years without it.

FWIW, Chris

[jay24k]

I've never used it but am curious on it. My 180 will be 2 years old in May and before that I had 1/3 of my rock in a 44 for another year or so. I do have to clean my glass every 3 or 4 days but I have never had any algae beside in the overflows which I clean out every 2 weeks. (small clumpful).

I'm just wondering if it will bite me later on or if nothing is wrong, leave it alone.

[duec22]

Greg Hiller, if you are going to mix it with carbon, deff. do not do it as a fluidized bed. The GFO is very brittle and the carbon clumps would turn it to dust. I mix them and do as you suggested and have them packed tight and don't have any problems.

[Serioussnaps]

Yeah i dont even let the media tumble in the reactor...it stays still. Very little flow....also mitigates the effects IMO of quick shocks because not too much happens quickly, also keeps the media from being destroyed and released.

[Gary Majchrzak]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8475173#post8475173 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Greg Hiller
I'm going to be pretty conservative about how much I use, but my skimmer, and other nutrient control systems are not keeping up to my satisfaction (the algae on the glass is bad in about 3 days) on my 400 gallon system.
Greg- I'm guessing that your current problem is similar to my experience (ie: increased microalgae growth in an older established reef aquarium.)
I suggest being VERY conservative with any GFO PO4 remover. One small bag (run passively in my sump) was enough to visibly make a difference in my aquarium within 24 hours.
I realize that some people (such as David Saxby) have run ROWA continuously since day one with no ill effect- but an older established system that hasn't been run with a GFO that's suddenly subjected to a large (or even "recommended") treatment might stress sensitive corals (such as Acropora) very severely.
I know some folks call this stuff "expensive rust", but IME it can be a useful tool if used properly.

[Fliger]

I have a friend who runs two Phosban reactors in succession (sidewinder770, there is a thread) and it works well. Mixing them in a much larger reactor like the FR509 works perfectly though. I've been doing it for well over a year. It works perfect with ROWA. I used that bigger carbon - the rabbit food sized stuff and it doesn't tumble. The ROWA is mixed all throughout and then some sits on top and "dances" with a MH900 hooked up. I try to use amounts that woud require changing at the same time.

I'll go get a couple pix

[Fliger]

Here you go, HTH ...

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l134/dfliger/IMG_4202.jpg

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l134/dfliger/IMG_4204.jpg

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l134/dfliger/IMG_4205.jpg

[Fliger]

dp

[Greg Hiller]

>I'm guessing that your current problem is similar to my experience (ie: increased microalgae growth in an older established reef aquarium<

Gary, thanks for the warnings. This is a fairly new tank (set up about 1 year ago), but it has much of the rock from my old 110 G tank that was set up for many years. I will take it slowly. I have a LOT of very large Acro colonies that I would hate to loose. I'll probably hook a single chamber up initially and slowly ramp the flowrate up over a few weeks.

[Gary Majchrzak]

Greg- those large older Acro colonies are your bragging rights. Good luck with the GFO- I'm interested in hearing your opinion on it.

[ReeferAl]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8465569#post8465569 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DaddyJax
I personally think that it srtips more than P04 out of the water.

I found some information on what else it removes at USFilter (http://www.usfilter.com/NR/rdonlyres/1EFD9755-F000-4DC1-AE83-4B1779806EC4/0/gfh_brochure.pdf)

In addition to phosphate, silicate and arsenic, which I already knew it removes, they say it removes chromium, selenium, antimony and copper.
I don't know if any of those could be a problem. They are all either not needed or needed in only trace amounts and it is unlikely the GFO could drop the levels too low, particularly considering they likely start at levels higher than NSW anyway.

Allen

[ReeferAl]

I found a reference in Advanced Aquarist (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/12/aafeature1/view?searchterm=None) that addresses these levels in salt mixes. Arsenic, antimony, chromium, copper and selenium are all higher to much higher than NSW in the salt mixes. Only silicate is lower. Unless you want to encourage diatoms, that is not a problem. I'd say the fact that GFO's remove things other than phosphate looks to be a good thing and not a bad one.

Allen