Why change water?

[mwwhite]

If your tank params are fine and everything appears healthy is it necessary to still change the water? Monthly?

We are coming up on our fourth week and haven't changed any water out yet (just added for evaporation).

Our local LFS has had his 300+ gallon (one in the store) set up for 8 years and he says he never touches it -- with regards to water changes....

What's the real scoop? Someone else told me that it helps keep the micro-organisms in check....

For newbies, I tell ya, if you ask 10 people the same thing they will give you 10 different answers - you don't know who or what to believe.....

Thanks in advance for your input...

[Shagsbeard]

Weekly.

There are many components of sea water that get "used up" by the creatures living in your live rock, and by fish and corals in the tank. Replacing water with new water replenishes these trace elements that we don't usually test for.

Also, bad stuff builds up in a tank if you don't do water changes. Copper and other heavy metals mainly.

Your LFS "never touches" his 300+ gallon because it's a more complete system than our smaller tanks. 300+ gallons is a huge volume, so it gets depleted slower... and concentrations build up slower. It needs less frequent maintainance.

You're wise to be skeptical though... many things we do are simply done because we do them. Water changes are probably over done by most of us... I do 5-10 gallons a week in my 75. Probably way over what I need to do.

Traditionally, water changes were done to remove nitrates... but a live rock system with a sand bed, and growing cheato in a sump removes the nitrates now. I'll still do water changes though.

[phishguyatstore]

i guess as long as your nutrient load is used up by something like a refuge or something else that gets rid of your nutrient load or dont have a lot of fish and not feeding them alot of food then maybe no you might not need to do a water change the reason you do them is to get rid on excess nutrients good luck with your tank

[povsan]

I had the same questions before, now I have red slime algae on my sand bed, don't know if it's due to water or not but now I'm all stressed out. Guess what I am doing now. I'm practicing the so called "Water Changes" now. I hope it goes away, and if this wouldn't have happened I wouldn't of done any water changes because I think replacing the evap water is good enough.

God luck

[naterealbig]

Ok guys, let me put this into perspective. Lets not get into hypotheticals or chemistry. Lets just talk common sense. Lets say, for the sake of argument, that some one puts you in a 100ft long by 50 foot tall, by 25foot wide box. Lets say that whoever puts you in there adds a couch, bed, TV, etc to keep you busy. Now lets pretend that there are no toilets, no sinks, no garbage cans, no air conditioners. Don't say 'well this has nothing to do with fish here' - because it certainly does. Even with refugiums, skimmers, phosphate removers, etc, we can not keep optimally clean water without adding some new every once in a while. It is humane and necessary.

[demonsp]

Do you check calcium and phospate levels. And do you have any sps's or lps's ?

[chrisstie]

If you have SPS or LPS they will absorb calcium from the water, thus depleting it. They need more to grow. Water changes help replenish the trace elements... as well as help with exporting waste.

Same thing if you keep shrimp. They need iodine i think? to molt properly.. they use it up eventually..

You could dose but i think its easier to just change the water

[PelagicMagic]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8480321#post8480321 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by naterealbig
Ok guys, let me put this into perspective. Lets not get into hypotheticals or chemistry. Lets just talk common sense. Lets say, for the sake of argument, that some one puts you in a 100ft long by 50 foot tall, by 25foot wide box. Lets say that whoever puts you in there adds a couch, bed, TV, etc to keep you busy. Now lets pretend that there are no toilets, no sinks, no garbage cans, no air conditioners. Don't say 'well this has nothing to do with fish here' - because it certainly does. Even with refugiums, skimmers, phosphate removers, etc, we can not keep optimally clean water without adding some new every once in a while. It is humane and necessary.


Great post

If you were trapped in a glass box with no vents to have fresh air enter you would find it hard to breathe, same is true with your fish and inverts

[demonsp]

Better be a good tv.heh

[Dubbin1]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8479321#post8479321 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by phishguyatstore
i guess as long as your nutrient load is used up by something like a refuge or something else that gets rid of your nutrient load or dont have a lot of fish and not feeding them alot of food then maybe no you might not need to do a water change the reason you do them is to get rid on excess nutrients good luck with your tank

You also do water changes to replace the trace elements that have been used up.

[Vin7250]

aaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh you MUST do water changes.........you know about the tang police........someone should dispatch the water change police.....just kidding.....it was smart to be skepticle about what your LFS said

[UrbanSage]

Regardless of the theory behind whether or not to do water changes Since I began 25 gallon semi weekly waterchanges as opposed to flaky 20 gallon monthly/semimonthly I have seen a tremendous health boost in my tank, a 75 gallon with a 20 gallon refugium.
My ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and phosphates always read 0 but I still do the water changes.

If I only did waterchanges when I found a reason to such as high nitrates then I would be able to go for months without doing anything. My reef would indeed be in bad shape compared to the thriving animals in my tank now.

That being said. I know people who is running reefs without ever doing a water change and it works for them :)

[Corne]

Did you know when you do certain things in routine for a certain amount of time you get used to do that. I have my tank for 8 weeks now, I add water due to evaporation, but once a month I do gravel cleaning and then I have to add new water. It is routine for me, switch on the bore hole get my bucket pour new water in my fish tank, about 3 buckets, (4 litres) switch off the bore hole . and once a mont gravel clean.

[mwwhite]

I appreciate the responses. I think the majority says you need to do water changes. It makes sense about the trace elements.

I'm still so new at this - I hate to admit I don't even know what a refugium is..... so I'm not sure if I have one... (don't cringe - we all had to learn right?).

As far as the question on the SPS or LPS or whatever those acronymns were -- my (our) profile lists what is in the tank. Not sure which corals are which.

Our LFS said we don't need to check for calcium and some of those other things that I read people test for....

It's terribly confusing though for a newbie. What I am scared to death over is the fact that while our params are excellent -- the tank looks great -- the coral and the one shrimp look good -- I'm afraid of the "other shoe dropping".... what's going on in there that I don't know about and before you know it we have a very sick tank and creatures. My heart couldn't take that so hence my questions.

I did some research on RC and found and article about water changes.

Wow -- what a "thick" subject.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php

So my next dumb question is "how to change the water".... you can't remove so much that the rock is exposed to air right? Having never done it before - we're afraid taking out 15-20 gallons will expose the rock to air -- the tallest rock is about 4-5 inches from the top of the water.

Boy I hate being a newbie.

You guys are great and your plethora of experience and willingness to help is most appreciated. I don't want to put anything in the tank in harm's way. They are like family already!

:D

[mwwhite]

I just noticed that the tank inhabitants are not showing up on my profile. I apologize - we currently have:

Current Inhabitants: 50 Cleanup Crew, Blue Legged Hermits, Turbo Snails etc. 1 Moon Coral, 1 PomPom Coral, 1 Torch Coral, 1 Pulsating Xenia, 1 Toadstool Mushroom Leather, and 1 small Peppermint Shrimp

[mwwhite]

What a dope.... My husband just mentioned that I forgot to mention something important.

We are using B-Ionic - every three days and at about half of what is recommended. (Per our LFS).

Does that make a difference on this whole subject? Sorry -- what a dope.

:(

[PelagicMagic]

your LFS gives poor advice, you should start shopping else where before they give you really bad advice or worse really bad advice so they can sell you something

[smcnally]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8482010#post8482010 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SpankinNew
What a dope.... My husband just mentioned that I forgot to mention something important.

We are using B-Ionic - every three days and at about half of what is recommended. (Per our LFS).

Does that make a difference on this whole subject? Sorry -- what a dope.

:(

If you are using B-Ionic, make sure you are testing your Calcium and Alkalinity. It's a little weird that he told you to dose 1/2 the recommended dosage:confused: . The recommended dosage on the bottle is a fairly low dosage. Once you start stocking up on corals, you'll need to dose more to keep your levels right. When I used to dose B-ionic, I had to do almost twice the recommended dosage for my tank.

[Sk8r]

Ow. You need test kits: salifert is a good brand. You need the following tests:
refractometer [device] salinity
digital thermometer [coralife/device] temp
ph meter [device] ph
test strips [bottle of same] for nitrate/trite/ammonia s/b 0
Salifert alkalinity test : s/b 8.3 dkh to 9.3
Salifert calcium test: s/b 400-450.
You need to keep a log, so you understand how the changes relate to each other: there will be trends, one thing affecting another. Each tank is different.
Corals and fish love 2 things: water in a good range, AND stability. If you find you're off, change things slowly. Slowly. A rapid change is under most circumstances as bad as a bad reading.

[UrbanSage]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8482932#post8482932 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by PelagicMagic
your LFS gives poor advice, you should start shopping else where before they give you really bad advice or worse really bad advice so they can sell you something

Without some specifics about why you say this... This is horrible advice as well.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8481988#post8481988 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SpankinNew
I appreciate the responses. I think the majority says you need to do water changes. It makes sense about the trace elements.

The thing with responses here is that a lot of people will have an opinion based on someone elses opinion based on someone elses opinion
etc. etc.
With that being said, usually peoples opinions are based on something that works or variations of it.
So what you want to do is start out doing what people knows work. Like water changes, if you get to a point with experience where you can say to yourself. "I do not need to do water changes" Then you can stop them. But it is a bad way to start out.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8481988#post8481988 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SpankinNew
I hate to admit I don't even know what a refugium is..... so I'm not sure if I have one...

A sump is a tank/bucket/rubbermaid some kind of vessel that can hold water, usually placed out of sight. The tank drain water into this and a return pump puts it back in the tank. There is more to it. But the idea is to increase your water volume to increase stability as well as trapping detritus (decaying organics). A refugium is sorta the same thing except in this you place different kinds of algae, usually a sandbed and some live rock rubble. A refugium is a safe place for small critters to live such as amphipods and copepods who would usually get eaten by the fish in the display tank.
The algae you would grow in there consumes/absorbs nitrates and phosphates etc. then once the algae is growing good then you can prune it and by throwing it in the trash you physically remove nitrate/phosphates from you tank because the algae is "holding" it.

You can read much more at Melev's site (http://www.melevsreef.com) about sumps and refugium as well as look at his identification pages for over 200 pictures and descriptions of things you can see in a reef tank.


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8481988#post8481988 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SpankinNew
As far as the question on the SPS or LPS or whatever those acronymns were -- my (our) profile lists what is in the tank. Not sure which corals are which.

Our LFS said we don't need to check for calcium and some of those other things that I read people test for....



SPS (Small) and LPS (Large) Polyped Stony Corals.
The coral names and identification will come as you gain more experience, but it is a good idea to learn the names when you buy them ;)

About your LFS, you absolutely can not at all ..... beyond opinion, based on fact, end of the world and dooms day seriusly ...... run a saltwater tank with fish, corals and other critters without doing water tests.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8481988#post8481988 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SpankinNew
It's terribly confusing though for a newbie. What I am scared to death over is the fact that while our params are excellent -- the tank looks great -- the coral and the one shrimp look good -- I'm afraid of the "other shoe dropping".... what's going on in there that I don't know about and before you know it we have a very sick tank and creatures. My heart couldn't take that so hence my questions.

This will happen unless you pick up some test kits. The list Sk8r gave you is a great start.
Corals can look good while they slowly die over several months.


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8481988#post8481988 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SpankinNew
I did some research on RC and found and article about water changes.

Wow -- what a "thick" subject.

Yes, but start out with the safe bet, then move away from it when you understand it better.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8481988#post8481988 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SpankinNew
So my next good question is "how to change the water".... you can't remove so much that the rock is exposed to air right? Having never done it before - we're afraid taking out 15-20 gallons will expose the rock to air -- the tallest rock is about 4-5 inches from the top of the water.

(Sorry for modifying your sentence, no dumb question).
When I do a water change I remove about 25 gallon from my 75 at once and then I pump 25 gallons back in. During this I have my 2x250w metal halide bulbs on and a handful of corals are out of water for about 10 minuttes during this.
Now there are corals that can better handle this than other.
But your live rock will be just fine. About the corals, I would figure out which ones does not like air and then not place those too high in the tank.

If only rock will be exposed to air, then just go ahead and drain out however much water you will put back in.


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8481988#post8481988 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SpankinNew
Boy I hate being a newbie.

You guys are great and your plethora of experience and willingness to help is most appreciated. I don't want to put anything in the tank in harm's way. They are like family already!

:D

We were all there, don't hate it. Enjoy learning, you will be doing that a lot from now on.

Well, now you must go forward taking care of your family, this includes test kits.

Good luck and we want to see pictures of the new tank :D

[mwwhite]

Thanks so much -- I just knew something wasn't quite right when I read these posts and then hear the local LFS.

Clarifying a few points -- we are testing ammonia, nitrites, nitrates and pH on a regular basis as well as SG and logging the results in a spreadsheet. We also have a glass thermometer to keep an eye on the temp.

The test kit we're using is Saltwater Master and an Instant Ocean Hydrometer. We are going to order the test kits for Alk and Calcium as suggested here even though the LFS said we didn't really need to test for that...

Very informative comments and advise - We really appreciate the time everyone took to respond to our questions.

Will post pics soon.

Thanks again!

[PelagicMagic]

bottom line is that advice here isnt based on a sale, Your LFS is in it for a profit not to be your reef buddy