DSB and Miracle Mud question

[downbeach]

I have ordered an Oceanic Reef Ready 180 Gal. Tank and am trying to get all my ducks in a row before it gets here. I have bought into the EcoSystem philosophy using their "Miracle Mud" system without using a skimmer(although I see they offer a "Pro"series which incorporates same). My goal is to create as natural an eco system as possible. To that end I was also considering using a DSB using sugar fine substrate with all the necessary/natural "crew" that would be safe for my tank population(a fish/reef hybrid). After reading the imformation I received from EcoSystems I am now a little confused about the DSB. They claim it would be best without any substrate at all, claiming it would only be for asthetics and should not exceed 1".
Questions:
Has anyone had any experience with a similar system?
Would a 3" substrate be enough?
Should I use "live" sand or let it seed itself from the LR?
Any Recommended e-tailers for LR and LS?
I have other questions, but will limit this post to this one for now.

[neotekz]

i would shoot for a minimum of 4" for a DSB and no more than 6"
you are going to need to seed the sandbed with real live sand that you buy from a retailer that they get from the ocean for best results since they will have the critters in them to shift the sand. if you just use live rocks or live sand from established system you will only be getting the bacteria and not many benifical pods to move the sand around. For a DSB to work properly the sand needs to be moved around quite a bit.

here's a good article to get u started http://ronshimek.com/Deep%20Sand%20Beds.htm

[chrisd1009]

I tried the miracle mud thing on a 90. I'll never run skimmerless again. Having experienced it first hand, Miracle Mud's advertising campaign was in fact too good to be true.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Are you going to have macroalgae in this refugium?

How are you going to supplement calcium and alkalinity (skimmerless may not be a good idea if you use limewater as CO2 influx may become too limiting).

Yellowing of the water may become an issue unless you use a lot of GAC or ozone.

[downbeach]

Thanks for the reply,
The EcoSystem allows for the use of some sort of hearty macroalgae i.e. caulerpa, chaeto, etc., If you have a prefernce I'd be more than interested to hear it. The methodology calls for the lights on the fuge to be on 24/7.
Currently I use Kent Kalkwasser for calcium and Kent Coral Builder for alkalinity when needed, although I do a 10% water change each week and don't need a lot of supplementing, usually just add a little kalkwasser to top off water. Ph @ 8.2-8.3, Salinity @ 34-35 ppt, Calc @ 420-450 mg/l, Alk @ 3.5-4meg/l, Mg @ 1400ppm, all other parameters Ammonia, Nutrate, Nitrite are all 0 I use Salifert test kits.
I am still a little "tounge in cheek" about the skimmer, I think it will be the hardest thing for me to get used to.

[Fastmarc]

I just find it hard to take anything labelled 'miracle' serious.

Though a system can run without a skimmer, unless there is a specific reason not to, I think it is a useful tool to utilize.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Currently I use Kent Kalkwasser for calcium and Kent Coral Builder for alkalinity when needed

You should not need alkalinity beyond the limewater (that adds a balanced amount of calcium and alkalinity) that is not balanced by additional calcium. So if the limewater alone is not adequate, I'd use a two part.

I worry a lot about how high the pH will get using limewater and no skimmer for aeration. When I shut off my skimmer for experimenting, the pH rose too much.

[david252]

I have a 100g system & have been using the miracle mud sump system now for 4 months. I would agree with a lot of what has been said above regarding skimmers. After about 2 months the the water looked VERY yellow 7 1 of my leather corals started to shrink. I also introduced a powder blue tang which promptly (& I mean virtually overnight) got HLLE - despite their claims that this system prevents/cures this. I added a protein skimmer & activated carbon (despite ecosystems advice not to do so) & system has dramaticaaly improved as has the powder blue. Whilst I think this system is pretty good generally & keeps nitrates etc fairly low (mine fluctuate at around 2) I think it has it's limitations & would not from my experience so far advise using it as a "stand alone" filter but would add carbon & protein skimmer, which seems to have absolutely no adverse affect as I have caulerpa algae drowing in the sump which is absolutely thriving.

Also I personally haven't used a DSB - added about 1/2" substrate which was approx 1/2 "live" & 1/2 inactive & used mainly live rock to seed the system which seems to have worked fine.

Hope this helps.

[downbeach]

Randy,
Thanks for the reply, maybe I'll use my old SeaClone 150 Skimmer(one of my early mistakes) it didn't work worth a whoot as a skimmer, but was a great aerator.
My use of Coral Builder for alk has been minimal, I think what happened is that my mg level gradually droped for some reason and I was having to make the adjustments with the alk. I started using Tech-M and brought the mg up and the calc/alk seem to have stablized.

[downbeach]

David252,
Thanks for your input. Your experience is confirming my fears, I'm not going to throw out my skimmer just yet. I was hoping that the use of a DSB and the EcoSystem method would eliminate the need for ancillary equipment. Do you think the use of Caulerpa may have had any affect on your system? I'm reading that it can have issues with "crashes" and susequent "toxicity"(although EcoSystem recommends this species). I am leaning toward the use of Chaeto. With the recommended water flow through the sump...do you have any type of "animal"growth, i.e. copepods, etc. Thanks again.

[chrisd1009]

I would go with the cheato and if you've got a large fuge with the eco-system thing going on, I wouldn't even bother with any sand in the main display. A sand bed and a fuge are just places for detritus to settle and with no skimmer, you've got no removal. A little algae will not remove the nutrients you are expecting it to.
I would increase the flow through the fuge to keep anything from settling and add a skimmer.

[david252]

I have 3 different types of algae in my ecosystem which I got from my LFS which also run an ecosystem with protein skimmer. I must confess to not knowing all the types of algae that are in there but have never had a "crash" as yet - although system is only 4months old. The water did go very yellow which I think was probably organic waste which was not being removed by the ecosystem/algae.

I have quite a few fish in my main tank now - 5 yellow tangs, 1 powder blue, 1 regal tang, 1 flame angel, 2 clowns & a cleaner wrasse as well as several inverts & all are doing well & nitrate only around 2, so I can't complain. As I understand it, part of the theory behind miracle mud is that it acts as a DSB in your sump so you don't need a DSB in your main tank, although I know some people use both.

[downbeach]

I'm not real confident that the EcoSystem working alone is going to be sufficient to do the job, I am going to have a hard time without the skimmer, so I am going to experiment with a sand bed that will be tiered across the bottom, using different sized aggregates from crushed coral to sugar fine sand. I'm not sure exactly how I'm going to lay it in, but am considering stiff, flexible plastic at about the height of the bed layer. I can alway install a skimmer later, if need be. I am a little concerned about what kind of fauna to seed the sand bed with as I hear alot of issues with some brissle worms, etc., so I am going to try and be selective with my purchases.