Cold water reef

[mr. bojangsjang]

After seeing the thread "Cold water/Temperate reefs" I am inspired :D I have a few questions about these sweet systems:

Filtration
1. Do you use normal LR as your filter or do you use a canister/wet dry?
2. Do you need a c02 system to run a nitrate reactor? Can you make a DIY version? $400 seems a little steep.
3. Is it a good idea to use a skimmer rated for much larger tanks?
4. Is there any type of mechanical filtration used?
5. Carbon, yes or no?

Water Movement
1. I was reading that cold water reefs need TONS of water movement, how much exactly?
2. Since a lot of the anemones are not photosynthetic does the water flow need to be directed away from them so their food doesn't blow away?

Temperature
1. Why can only acrylic tanks of at least 1" panes be used?
2. What temperature should a typical coldwater reef be kept at?
3. Would a 1/10 HP chiller be enough to cool a 15 gallon display plus a 5-10 gallon sump? I want to make my tank as cold as possible :)

Livestock
1. Where (if anywhere) can cold-water fish/inverts be purchased online?
2. Are there any RC members with paypal who can collect coldwater species?
3. Are there any coldwater corals?
4. Are there any links to coldwater inverts/fish?

Thanks for reading!

[ezcompany]

acrylic tanks should be at least 1" due to condensation.
a coldwater reef may be very different from what you may be thinking, as hardly any reef building corals grow in these settings. if you take the southern california coast as an example, the temperature would be typically from 55-60 during the winter and 64-73 degrees in the summer. a 1/10hp chiller should be able to push your tank to 75 degrees and below, but this is really dependent on ambient room temperature as well. liveaquaria has some coldwater species, or the marine center online. one famous fish is the Garibaldi, the fish of california that can be found sometimes here and there. Lophelia pertusa is an example of a coldwater coral that is non photosyntetic.

[mr. bojangsjang]

Thanks. Anyone else with some input?

PS- My room temp is 62 degrees during the winter, (even a few degrees cooler in the fall).

[mr. bojangsjang]

Also, I now know due to sweating 1" acrylic is needed, but why cant 1" glass be used? I don't think acrylic is "sweat" resistant but I could be wrong.

If I did go the acrylic route, could I use 1" front and side panels then use like 1/2" acrylic on the bottom and back to save some money but not have to look at the condensation?

[michaeldaly]

What temperature does the room get to in summer?

[mr. bojangsjang]

About 72 degrees, but If I keep the AC on high probably little lower. I'm located in Massachusetts and a cheap-scape on the heating bill so it's pretty chilly in my house LOL.

[norskfisk]

I have kept cold water tanks for a few years. It takes quite low temperatures before they start to sweat. Or very high humidity in the air. Water temperature only a few degrees lower than room temp is not a problem.

I have never had problems with condensation so I haven't tried this, but people say that putting a thin film of soap on the glass helps.

I think acrylic is less heat conducting than glass, thus less prone to sweating.

[mr. bojangsjang]

Thanks Jon. Problem is Massachusetts gets very humid in the summer but I guess I could live with sweating for one season.

How many degrees difference in room temp to tank temp before you start getting sweat?

[mr. bojangsjang]

Also I see some chillers online that claim a 1/10 HP unit can bring a 60 gallon tank down 30 degrees. Are these accurate?

THIS is the Chiller (http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=PC-CL-280&Category_Code=pacificcoast) that claims to have a 30 degree pull down on a 60 gallon tank...

[michaeldaly]

I guess it is possible, sites are usally slightly over optemistic when advertising but it probably won't be that far off.

[steveweast]

Answers.....


Filtration...

1) I use some bioballs in the overflow. Natural cold water reef areas are not made from calcium based rock like warm water...so, the native rock tends to be extremely dense. The native rock in Puget Sound is granite.

2) Nitrate reactors work with just a slow flow and a bacterial food source. The sulfer based ones seem to work best.

3) Use as large a skimmer that your space will allow. Of course it depends on your bioload...but, cold water critters and their high food requirements are equivilent to a typical fish only system.

4) I use carbon.....never really hurts.

Water movement......

1) Water movement isn't necessary for all critters......most will need no movement....but, some anemones do need movement to bring food and carry away waste. I think, even with those, less movement is required than a typical sps reef. I have a return pump plus a single Tunze pump on a controller that varies the flow.

2) As stated above, I use the Tunze to vary the flow. No critter like a constant jet upon them.

Temperature....

1) Acrylic transfers less heat than glass....which is a terrible insulator. I have a diver buddy of mine that used a stock 55 gal tank with 3/8" acrylic for his 55 F cold reef. He didn't experience sweating until the temp went above 95.

2) Depends upon where your critters come from. I have some critters from Tasmania (temp around 60)....... and I have Puget Sound critters (temp around 50)......so, I maintain a 55 F temp. When I dive Puget Sound, the temp can be as high as the lower 60's.....or as low as the upper 30's..... a big spread.

3) You want to size the chiller to where it has as much off time as on time. I use a 1/2hp chiller for about 160 system gals.

Livestock.....

1) There is no place that sells temperate critters one at a time. There are few wholesale outfits that will sell to the public one box at a time. Past that, it's collecting yourself or waiting for temperate critters to come through the warm water trade. Drs F and marinecenter have them somewhat frequently.

2) Most collection licenses are for personal use.....so....it depends the seller's risk tolerance.

3) There are many cold water corals. Most are soft though. There is a common hard coral in Puget Sound that is similar to tubestrea. I have several of them which came in the rock.

4) There are lots of them around. If you search with Puget Sound in the name, you'll get quite a few links.

http://splash.metrokc.gov/wlr/waterres/marine/photos.htm

http://dnr.metrokc.gov/wlr/waterres/marine/photos/nudibranchs.htm

http://hmsc.oregonstate.edu/projects/msap/PS/masterlist/index.html

http://www.aquaticbiodiversitygroup.com.au/

[mr. bojangsjang]

Thanks Steve. From what I have read about acrylic vs. glass tanks articles, I have read that acrylic is better insulated. Wouldn't this be bad for a cold-water tank as it traps heat better than glass?

Also, PM sent for your advice :D

[steveweast]

No....the object is to slow heat transfer.....and a better insulated tank will keep the heat out (unless your ambient temp is less than your tank's temp then the heat would be kept in). The main goal is to minimize the temperature difference (gradient) between the tank and the ambient air. The larger the gradient, the more likely that condensation will form and the more insulation that is needed to prevent condensation....although humidity plays a role too. The higher the humidity, the more likely condensation will form. This is why condensation doesn't come into play until you get the tank's temp below 60.....most folk's ambient air is above 70.... hence the gradient. The lower the gradient, the less condensation will form.

[norskfisk]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8560142#post8560142 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr. bojangsjang
Thanks Jon. Problem is Massachusetts gets very humid in the summer but I guess I could live with sweating for one season.

How many degrees difference in room temp to tank temp before you start getting sweat?

Don't remeber exactly, but I know I can have 16F degrees difference without condensation.

[Jadran]

1. Do you use normal LR as your filter or do you use a canister/wet dry?

LR would always do no matter if its cold or tropical, canisters are generally seen as nitrate factories, but you can use one for active carbon/phosphate remover, need to clean it regularly

Is it a good idea to use a skimmer rated for much larger tanks?

I think so. It would really depend on your livestock, but most of the cold and temperate water corals lack zooxanthellae so their survival is dependable on hardcore feedings, and therefor aggressive filtration is must!

Carbon, yes or no?[/]

YES! ;)


[b] I was reading that cold water reefs need TONS of water movement, how much exactly?

again dependable on creatures you intend to keep.. example: If you aiming for lets say cold water gorgonians not only vigorous but proper water movement is very important... They are much like Dendronephthya corals, dependable on right water movements, otherwise their polyps are unable to catch food

What temperature should a typical cold-water reef be kept at?

ufff.. there is wide spectrum of temperate and cold water environments so therefor its impossible to answer to this question precisely.. Water depth plays also important role.. Deeper water don't shift summer/winter temp. radically like lets say Mediterranean shallow water..

Are there any cold-water corals?

sure, many.. but few reefbuilders and most of them lack zooxanthellae

Are there any links to coldwater inverts/fish?

have you ever seen aquarium of Karl Guba? Austrian guy , with really nice Adriatic tank, definitely worth taking a peek ;)

http://www.guba-mittelmeeraquarium.at/

there is plenty of Scandinavian, Dutch and Italian cold/temperate tanks but dunno for links beside Italian Mediterranean/Adriatic site

http://www.aiam.info/05/index.htm

Adriatic livestock info

http://www.aiam.info/05/schede.php


hope it helps


M.