rubbermaid leeching?

[scbadiver]

My freind and I have similar setups, and very similar problems with algae and inverts dying/suffering. We have finally figured out the only thing in common is both of us used rock that was stored in the plain old rubbermaid 32 gallon trash cans(not the Brute) for a few years prior to going back into the tank. Do you know what may have leeched into the rock that would be toxic and further more, what to do to remove it? Rubbermaid would not give out the "ingredients" to the plastic as a proprietary secret. Thanks Randy.

[Boomer]

I would suspect the rock leaching and not the container as the cause. Meaning, things died in the rock or things were adsorbed into the rock form the air and that is what is now leeching out. I would soak the rock in bleach.

Similar to my post here

Once it has sat in the bleach for a 1 min stir the sand, let sit for a 1 min and stir again. Do this 3-4 times. Then et it sit for 30 min. Put bucket in bath tube or where ever and dump the water and refill with RO/DI water. Repeat the same procedure ( no 30 min sit). Dump out the water, refill and get some Amquel. Put in lots, like 4 shot-glasses full. Repeat the stirring procedure and let it sit for 30 min. Dump out water and refill with RO/DI, repeat the stirring procedure. Dump out water done.

Why all this ? You need to be sure all that bleach is out. The Amquel will neurtralize any bleach.

[scbadiver]

Ok. All of the rock had come from a succesfull reef tank with no concerns prior. the rock went into the trashcans directly from the tanks when they were torn down and have been underwater all along so I would discount thru the air. They were both stored at different locations(about 600 miles apart). Both started with good RO water and new substrate etc and none of the problems showed until the rock was put in. The snails suffered immediate
and drastic changes. Falling off, over, and coming out of the shells. the corals and fish all have appeared ok but not great. I've lost a few crabs too for whatever reason as well. A few of his snails perked up a little 24 hours afte putting a polyfilter in the tank. This is how we arrived at something toxic perhaps from the trashcans. Formaldehyde in plastic? Just thinking out loud here. Thanks for the thoughts guys. We appreciate any help.

Robbie

[garymcgrath]

I may have a similar problem. I use a rubbermaid trash can (not Brute) for my top-off and for new saltwater mixing. I have had problems with snails and crabs dying as well as problems with nuisance algae. Also, I cant seem to keep tangs. I have upgraded my skimmer 4 times in the past 3 years and am now using a Euroreef RS-135 on a 75 gal tank. I cooked my rock for 4 months and have a barebottom. I use RO/DI water and TDS has always been 0. This has puzzled me for a looooong time! I think I will pick up a Brute can and see if that helps. Anyone else use the regular rubermaid trash cans with no problems?

[reefdadx2]

I have used and still use 2, 32 gallon Rubbermaid trashcans for probably 13 years now with no ill effect to Tangs, my favorite type of fish or any type of corals leather LPS or SPS. I use them for top-off. My 32 gallon Rubermaid trash cans are the light blue colored ones if that helps. Good luck. Michael R

[scbadiver]

THats what these are, 32 gall light blue. The only difference may be that they were brand new about 2-3 years ago, rinsed and used for an extended period. Perhaps yours were rinsed enough by using them that smaller amounts of "whatever" leeched out slowly enough so as not to be a concern? Again I'm just fishing for something here. We have both had very good, successfull tanks in the past and we are both baffled now. Thanks for the input guys.

Robbie

[Boomer]

I'm not going to throw out the plastic problem but did you rinse out these containers at all, with say vinegar before you use them ? New containers can or may be an issue from the the material left over the help separated the container from its mold. I have used such for 40 years with no such problem.

have been underwater all along

Underwater, LR, no air and stagnant water for months = O2 will all be removed and will turn anaerobic. Putting rock in tank will leech, flush out many of those toxins produced in those conditions in the rock that is now dead but was alive when you put it in. It is an accident waiting for a place to happen and is a NO-NO

Stored LR, for months, MUST be soaked and well rinsed before its use, preferably with bleach. Especially when it is sitting and there is no light, air and is stagnant water.

[scbadiver]

I suspect you may have hit it on the head Boomer. That is EXACTLY the scenario. I know neither of us cleaned, or soaked the cans with viniger or anything. Tap water rinse and used them. It was stagnant, covered, and dark. I figure the rock was dead but we both used it as base rock figuring it would re-colonize quickly. I really didn't know it would make it toxic, just dead, so I thought.
Ok so that being the case though, wouldn't normal filtration, skimming, carbon, etc have cleaned up my water in a years time? I'm still fighting whatever my problem is. That why I was leaning toward the container because I use a newer one for mixing water for changes too. Thanks again Boomer. This is the best forum on here for good info!

Robbie

[Boomer]

Robbie

Ok so that being the case though, wouldn't normal filtration, skimming, carbon, etc have cleaned up my water in a years time? I'm still fighting whatever my problem is. That why I was leaning toward the container because I use a newer one for mixing water for changes too.

Are you saying this tank has had the dead LR in it for a year ?

If yes it would also have cleaned up anything from the containers that also may have leeched. I'm/we are taking it you just put in this dead LR i.e., last week 2 weeks ago etc.... Your whole post is as if you just added this LR. What is it ?

The snails suffered immediate
and drastic changes. Falling off, over, and coming out of the shells. the corals and fish all have appeared ok but not great. I've lost a few crabs too for whatever reason as well. A few of his snails perked up a little 24 hours after putting a polyfilter in the tank.


1 year;

That would be a whole new issue and would have nothing to do with container or the dead LR..........unless the rock was maybe exposed to copper and it is leeching out of the LR. It does not take much cooper to kill inverts especially those that are dying. But I do not buy that either, if there is poly's and GAC. Did he Polys turn blue by any chance = Copper ?

I can grasp the snail thing as some snails die if there is not the proper algae for them to feed on. Some release toxic hormones into the water that controls population densities which are toxic to them and only the healthy survive. When they do that they fall off like flies. You have heard of fish growing to the size of the tank. That is really false, it is that some fish sizes is due to growth retarding hormones they release in the water. All the filtration you could imagine will not stop this, unless there are like 100% water changes every few seconds. This has been proven in the Lab with FW trout.

[scbadiver]

The answer is, both. I put mine in actually about a year and half ago. My friend put his in about 5 weeks ago. Thing is, We both had the same thing happen when we set it up. Now I still have trouble with snails and just last week saw the first signs of any coraline algea. I've had a terrible bloom of Neomeris Annulata and now, just as I saw the first coraline, I'm starting to get bubble too. His tank has 5 inch strands of hair algea all over and the snail problem too. He lost 35 of 40 snails in a matter of hours. Neither of us has ever used copper at all and no, the poly filters did not turn blue.

just as a note, Doug's tank was cycled too. THere was no ammonia present as per his tests and the LFS' testing prior to acclimating the snails.

Any other thoughts, Boomer? THanks so much for considering our problems.

Robbie

[scbadiver]

Also, I forgot to mention, I have never used any polyfilters. Just GAC. I don't know if that makes any difference. I am going to put one in the filte though just to see if anything changes and if it turns colors. Thanks again to all!

Robbie

[scbadiver]

Ooops-double post....sory.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't know if the containers might have been a concern, but certainly washing new plastic containers in warm soapy water followed by plenty of rinsing with tap water is a good precaution.

[pszemol]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8593627#post8593627 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Boomer
I can grasp the snail thing as some snails die if there is not the proper algae for them to feed on. Some release toxic hormones into the water that controls population densities which are toxic to them and only the healthy survive. When they do that they fall off like flies. You have heard of fish growing to the size of the tank. That is really false, it is that some fish sizes is due to growth retarding hormones they release in the water. All the filtration you could imagine will not stop this, unless there are like 100% water changes every few seconds. This has been proven in the Lab with FW trout. What you wrote is very interesting. Do you know any source papers on the subject of trout and snails hormones? I would love to read more on the subject.

Does it also apply to marine fish ?

[Boomer]

No, not of hand Pszemol. I have a pic somewhere in one of my biology books with the trout in the mason jar. There is also an old issue of Sceintific Ameican I have on that subjec that talks about FW Gars and why they do not pop out the sides of an aquairum. Yes I woud assume the same for many marine fish. It is a well know fact that many fish "grow to the size of the tank" as some put it. Take the fish out and put it in a bigger tank and they get bigger.

You will some stuff here

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=growth+retarding+hormones+in+fish&spell=1

http://www.google.com/search?q=growth+hormones+in+fish&hl=en&lr=&start=10&sa=N

[pszemol]

I wonder what would be a evolutionary purpose of producing such a hormone, especially for marine(!) fish, where it would be almost infinitely diluted in the wast ocean waters mixing constantly. Producing a hormone is biologically costly - it must be a good reason (benefit) for an organism to produce it or such animal would have evolutionary disadvantage compared to animal not spending its precious resources on producing unused hormones... Over time such organism would become outcompeted and extinct.

Can you think of a scenario where producing such hormone would be usefull for a marine environment with an almost infinite volume of water diluting such hormone ? It is hard to imagine evolution working to develop something specifically for the aquarium use only :) so it must be usefull feature in open ocean to evolve in such a way.

[Boomer]

such hormone would be usefull for a marine environment

No, it is even hard to buy for FW ;)

[pszemol]

I am not sure if we understand each other - I was not looking for such hormone on the market :)

I was speculating that such hormone would NOT be useful in the ocean, where it would be quickly diluted before it could act on other animals.

That is why I asked:
"Can you think of a scenario where producing such hormone would be usefull for a marine environment with an almost infinite volume of water diluting such hormone ? It is hard to imagine evolution working to develop something specifically for the aquarium use only so it must be usefull feature in open ocean to evolve in such a way."

I do not know what would be a benefit for freshwater fish either, but it is easier to imagine poluting with a hormone small lake than a wast oceans...

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think Boomer meant hard to understand, not hard to purchase. :)

[Boomer]

What I meant was I find it hard to believe that even in a FW environment that such hormones in the water column can control growth rates and thus find it even harder to believe in seawater, which is even more diluted. It is quite obvious that something does control their size in smaller environments, like an aquarium be the FW or SW fish. They claimed growth retarding hormones.

I have never really heard of a growth retarding hormone by name. More than likely it is some hormone that just retards growth due to certain parameters taking place, thus acts like "growth retarding hormone" or stress hormones, a better term. Something you would not see in an open large system

From an old book of fish physiology it was brought up how many workers have demonstrated that circulating levels of catecholamine and 17-hydroxycorticosteriod of various salmon vary in direct proportion to physical and chemical stimuli. This is just on example and there are others. You may want to look into "Somatostatins in the Regulation of Growth in Fish" I also know there have been studies done on density populations and its affect on growth. Many of these growth retarding effects may not take place until certain parameters are met, which would be about nil in an ocean. Other things also control growth such as social behavior. An example is clown fish and their social hierarchies

Here is some stuff on Regulation of Growth in Fish

http://www-heb.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/congress/2000/growth/growth.pdf

That is correct Randy :D

[pszemol]

I see now, "hard to buy" like in:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/buy
...
8. Informal.
a. to accept or believe: I don't buy that explanation.
b. to be deceived by: He bought the whole story.

After almost 8 years after I was transplanted into this country my English is still lacking :)

Thanks guys for helpful explanations!
This is great forum...

[Boomer]

OH I see why Pszemol :lol: English sucks and often makes no sense :D But yes, the is the kind of "buy " I was referring to. I have 58 years of English and I'm still :confused:

On another note some fish are not affected at all it seems.