Thinking about giving up! Please help!

[blaklite]

I've got a 24g nano cube that has been in a slow downward spiral for about a year now. I've tried everything I can think of and no matter what I do, it just gets worse and worse. At this point, I'm about to give up and find another hobby, but I really don't want to.

What I've tried:
I've reduce my lighting from 132 watts to only 64 watts and lighting period to 8 hours from 12. I stopped feeding the tank completely. I installed the Current USA skimmer (which doesn't work). I added red grape caulerpa (as a nutrient export). I've tried varying combinations of filter media (ceramic rings, charcoal, filter floss, sponges). I've reduced the temperature from 78 to 72. I added a sixline wrasse in hopes that he would eat the planaria...but that didn't work, so I probably just made things worse by adding a poop-maker. I've tried water from 2 different LFS's using both their fresh and pre-mixed salt. This has been my setup for about 4 months now and I'm not seeing any improvement...in fact I think it's getting worse...and rapidly.

Current problem:
-Red planaria population numbering about 300+.
-Various micro algae taking over every surface (hair, green slime, red slime, you name it)
-Zooanthids are rarely open.
-Mushrooms look unhappy and I loose one about every 3 weeks.

Current setup:
-24g Nano Cube
-Upgraded to 3 x 36W (2 x combo 10k daylight / actinic, one actinic 03/05) + 1 x 24W (10k daylight) CF
-Current USA nano skimmer (have never been able to make it work...it just pumps water into the cup no matter what level I have the water at)
-290gpm power head / filter
-Charcoal and ceramic rings for filter media
-Hydor heater
-25-30lbs live rock
-2" DSB

Livestock:
-Sixline wrasse
-Cleaner Shrimp
-100ish zooanthids
-Medium xenia
-Large leather coral
-Large GSP
-Large yellow polyp colony
-25 or so mushrooms
-Large candy cane coral
-Large mass of red grape caulerpa
-Medium pagoda cup
-10ish ricordia

Maintenance Routine:
-Water change 4 gallons every two weeks (inlcuding scrubbing algae off of rocks, sucking out planaria, etc).
-Mixing red sea salt with LFS water (have also tried their pre-mix)
-Dose 5ml of Coral Essentials every two weeks
-Add 5ml of buffer solution every two weeks
-I completely stopped feeding the tank about 3 months ago

Params:
-Salinity: 1.025
-Temp: 72-75
-Lighting: 8 hours (only 2 x 32w combo bulbs on...others off)
-nitrate: zero
-nitrite: nearly zero
-ammonia: zero

If anyone can help, I'd greatly appreciate it. I almost called the LFS today to see about bringing in all of my livestock for sale. I really don't want to do that, but I'm not sure that I have much choice at this point. Thank you in advance for anything that you can help me with! :)

[oldreefer76]

Sounds like high Phosphates to me, quit buying LFS water and use bottled distilled water for 1, I have also always been against a DSB in a Nano, quit dosing things you are not testing for waist of $$ and cause problems , you are in Columbus make the trip to PhisyBuis on N. Hamilton rd, Sedar will help you out

[Lagger]

Wow! Nice informational post. :)

It appears you have an algae problem and nowhere do I see your PO4 levels. When you get around to testing, you might find they could be zero due to the algae consuming it as fuel. I would try running some GFO/phosphate remover.

I would also start feeding again. You're lucky you just have a wrasse, as they're good scavengers. Remember, most fish need to be fed 2-3 times daily and not so much. I fish's stomach is only as big as it's eye. Hopefully this gives you an indication on how much to feed. HTH ;)

[culdublvd]

Have you tested for phosphates? How do you have nitrites but not nitrates? Or did you just reverse them? How old are your bulbs? Have you had a lfs test your water to confirm? Does your LFS change their RO filters?

[Illuminati]

Ever try a product called flatworm exit for the Red planaria?

What kind of cleanup crew do you have?

I'd run phosban (either get a reactor rigged or put it in a media bag). Chuck the rings, add purigen, replace the carbon with chemi-pure.
I had red slime once in my cube.
I have my chambers setup like this:
Chamber 1 - Chemi-pure on the bottom, filter floss on top of that, media bag of phosban on top of that.
Chamber 2 - Purigen & heater
Chamber 3 - Pump

Also I wander what the quality of the water your LFS is giving you. If the TDS is high it can be the cause of some algae problems. If you get most of the problems under control I'd invest in an RO/DI, you can find them on E-bay for less than $100.

If all else fails you can sell off your livestock, steralize and clean the liverock and start again. Hope it doesn't come to that.

[culdublvd]

How about a quality skimmer?

[Mrseptember15]

You can try doing an extreme makeover of the tank. And no I don't mean decor, I mean try doing things more diffrently. Obviously if one way doesn't work, try another! As someone said use Distilled water instead of your pre-mixed water. I prefer R/O but I haven't ever tried Distilled. Although, to your post I sense a bit of lazy. For a whole month try keeping up with maintanence, for example doing frequent weekly water changes, keeping S.G stable, keeping temprature stable, and most importantly do parameter tests and feed your fish. If this doesn't change anything in the tank that your unhappy with, then try something else.:D . But im pretty sure it will change something in your tank for the best;) .

[GobyJohnKenobi]

How often do you change your carbon?

With that mix of corals, I imagine that you have some serious. smack-down chemical warfare going on.
How is your LPS holding up?

I agree with ditching the rings.

You might try the Chemipure in the first chamber.

In the second chamber: two bags of SeaChem Renew instead of carbon. Change one out after two weeks and then the other after another two weeks. This will help with the chemical warfare.

A phosphate remover will help with the algae. You might want to ditch the grape calerpa. I know it looks cool, but it will spread like wildfire and the little "grapes" will eventually become so numerous that they might clog your filtration and/or pump.
Try stuffing a bundle of chaeto behind a rock in an area of good flow and lighting. It will be fine there, do its thing, and be much easier to control.

Hang in there. Sounds like you will have an awesome tank after you have solved the mystery....and a GREAT sense of satisfaction.

[fishdoc11]

A series of 20% water changes ( say every 3 days until you do 100% total siphoning the planaria as you go) with seawater mixed with good 0 TDS RO/DI and slowly raising the temp back up to ~ 78 would be a good starting point. It sounds like you have been getting a lot bad bad advice from someone on running this tank that's all over the map. Try simple stuff first then move on to other things to try. IME when things go bad it's usually much easier to fix than you think.

hth, Chris

[FLricordia]

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=12758&Ntt=algae%20magic&Ntk=All&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Np=1&pc=1&N=0&Nty=1

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=13965&Ntt=phospure%20pads&Ntk=All&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Np=1&pc=1&N=0&Nty=1

Try these two products. They will work wonders. Will take approx. 3 weeks to clear algae with the algae magic (will remove red and green hair) and use the cut to fit pads (will keep hair from returning and keep diatoms in check) from here out. Make sure you rinse them well before placing in filter. Good luck.

[stan zemanek]

total tank break down
take sand out and throw in garbage
cook rock
get a good skimmer
get good flow
carbon
turkey baster
filter socks
put tank back together without the sand for $%^#@ sakes and enjoy the hobby:D

[bpd964]

I've been close to giving up for some of the same reasons. I emptied the tank and sold everything except the tank and equipment. After a short time you will calm down and start again. This is an illness, you won't be able to live without your tank once you have one.. I'm not saying to be as drastic but, sit back and take a breather. And like someone else said, stop dosing stuff you aren't testing for trying to combat an unknown problem. Just sit back and mellow out a bit.. You'll work it out..

[FLricordia]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8605765#post8605765 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bpd964
I've been close to giving up for some of the same reasons. I emptied the tank and sold everything except the tank and equipment. After a short time you will calm down and start again. This is an illness, you won't be able to live without your tank once you have one.. I'm not saying to be as drastic but, sit back and take a breather. And like someone else said, stop dosing stuff you aren't testing for trying to combat an unknown problem. Just sit back and mellow out a bit.. You'll work it out..
Same with me. My last nano was a disaster. Everyday after getting home from work it was all I could take to see through the diatoms that had grown over the glass. I finally gave in, gave all my corals away, and said never again. Then 2 months later I did another nano, this time with RO/DI instead of wallyworld bottled and use the fostersmith phospure pads, no protien skimmer, and the tank has remained immaculate since start-up first of Aug.

[blaklite]

Thank you all for the great advice. Sorry for being late on the reply...Thanksgiving got in the way of my internet usage. :) I've done two 25% water changes since posting the original message. I tossed the skimmer, carbon, and rings. I added a PhosPure pad, Kent Phosphate sponge (will remove tomorrow), and ChemiPure. I think that the LFS water may indeed be the culprit. I was thinking back to the last few weeks and realized that I switched from buying saltwater to fresh. I figured why pay more when I can add the salt myself for a lower cost? Now I'm wondering if their fresh water was not the same RO water that they use to make their saltwater. I've started looking for an RO/DI unit on eBay so that I can eliminate this variable.

When I started this tank, everyone was telling me that a DSB was the way to go, but now I'm hearing otherwise. Is this personal preference or is there some real evidence as to which is better?

Colinadam:
I've heard of Flatworm Exit and considered it, but I've seen just as many horror stories as success stories on the internet. If I can't get them under control soon, I may have to try it anyway. My clean up crew is about a dozen astrea snails and a dozen blue leg hermit crabs. I had some nasarius snails, but they didn't last more than a couple weeks. I think the hermit crabs took them out.

Goby:
I'm aware that some of my corals engage in chemical warfare via sweeper tentacles, but it sounds like you're speaking more of chemicals in the water. Is this correct? If so, what effect does this have on water quality?

Oldreefer, lagger, culdublvd:
I didn't include Phosphate levels because they are always exactly zero. In the middle of the worst algae blooms or when all is bright and sunny, they're still zero. I'm guessing that Lagger is correct in that the algae is consuming any phosphates as quickly as they are introduced. I've tested the LFS water several times in the past and found nothing.

Culdublvd:
My bulbs are all approximately 4 months old.

Hopefully these recent changes will show some improvement. Thank you all again for your help.

[Illuminati]

I think you can get a good RO unit from The Filter Guys or Air Water & Ice for a decent price. I got the Typhoon III from AWI with a TDS meter for around $200 shipped, a TDS meter is worth the $20.

Sounds like you have a good cleanup crew. My nassarius snails usually stay in the sandbed but they come out in force when I feed mysis.

Sounds like your well on the way to an awesome setup.

Good Luck

[Sk8r]

Leathers exude chemicals into the water: they discourage stony corals. They can be removed with carbon.

Phosban is your friend. It lasts for months. If you use more than recommended, watch your ph.

I'd suggest a small urchin: tripneustes gracilis [foster/smith] is a good algae grazer that won't hurt your corals.

Ro/di is another good bet.

You can run Flatworm Exit---but the hazard is this, and it can be gotten around: when all those creatures die, you have one heck of a systemic reaction. You have to keep your oxygenation high and you have to test the water every few hours and be prepared to remediate any nosedive in params.

Start now to keep a log of test results, so you can look at trends, not just readings, and get ahead of the game, so you can say: I had 9.0 alk on Wednesday, and here it is Thursday, and it's 8.3. It's ok today, but I'd better add some alk buffer, because it's trending down fast, and I don't want it to be 7.5 tomorrow. If you do that before you do Flatworm Exit, and then test like crazy during the aftermath, you'll bring your tank through ok, because you'll know how it reacts, and what chemicals you're going to have to have to counter what it will do when all that dieoff happens.

[culdublvd]

There is always going to be a debate of having a dsb or not. It is all personal preference. Everyone will try to tell you one way or the other is better, but both was work, and work well. I have ran both but I just prefer the look of sand.

[chocolateblnt]

YEa ... about the FW exit ... the FW's will start dying and either floating around or will stick to the rock so you'll need an extra set of hands to siphon out all those suckers and gently scrub some off the rock ... get a WC ready 24 hrs before.

I also agree with the 2 products FLricordia mentioned, I tried just the pad and it worked MAGIC!

I think your main problem is the H20 ... you need to find a quality source!

[Ehgemus]

I started with a 20g tank and had a algae problem, and I was buying my ro/di water from the fish store. than I upgraded to a 46g tank and bought my own ro/di filter and a tds meter. it is a inline meter thats test water going in and coming out. my readings are 145-190 going in and 0-3 coming out. just for fun I tested the ro/di water from the fish store and it was 265 tds. I asked the people at the store if they had a tds meter and I did not know what I was talking about.
The ro/di filter was the best item I bought for my tank.

[DrHank]

I've seen some pics of FLRicordia's tank and it's killer! I'd try what he suggests. He knows what he's doing! Mike, I've never seen as nice a tank without a good skimmer in use. My congratulations!

[blaklite]

Alright. I appologize for the delay but I have an update. I purchased a Kent Marine Maxxima Hi-S 35gpd unit. Unfortunately I only get about 5gpd out of the unit. I also purchased a dual TDS meter. It shows about 750ppm on the input side and 0 on the output side. My final stage is already changing from blue to orange so I am betting that this will be a very expensive unit for me to operate.

I've been running this unit and performing weekly water changes for three weeks now. When I started using the new water, I also added ChemiPure, Pura cut-to-fit filter, and PhosBan. I noticed some immediate changes. First, the red planaria reduced to about half of their previous numbers. Additionally, I noticed that the green slime algae almost completely disappeared.

Unfortunately, shortly after switching to my own RO/DI, my Hydor Theo heater malfunctioned and kept my tank at 89 degrees for nearly a week. This is the second time I've had a Hydor Theo heater fail in the last year. Even straight out of the box both of the heaters heated nearly degrees higher than indicated on the dial. The only casualty of this latest failure was that my Xenia melted. I ripped out the expensive Hydor heater and replaced it with an El Cheapo and slowly adjusted the temperature back down to 78 degrees.

I am still having a huge problem with algae, although it's a type of algae I've never dealt with before so I'm not really sure what to do. It seems to thrive in the top layer of the sand as thousands of tiny filaments up to two inches long. The filaments eventually attach to air bubbles and then float around the tank until they smother my corals with a mesh of the tiny filaments. These filaments are much smaller diameter than a human hair.

When I do a water change, I blow the crud off of the rocks with a turkey baster. After doing this and vacuuming the sand, the water is absolutely filled with the tiny filaments. At this point, they're a sandy, tan color. As soon as I get some water put back in, I turn on the filter and try to mechanically remove as many of the filaments as possible. Inevitably, the corals still end up covered in the stuff. I then turkey baster everything again and repeat until I no longer see much of the algae. Unfortunately, after three weeks of fighting this battle, I'm not seeing any decrease in the production of this algae. Any tips on what this is or how to get rid of it?

Of note, the green slime algae is now gone. Unfortunately, my Caulatrea started breaking suddenly. I loose 2-3 polyps every week. The polyps themselves seem healthy, but the skeleton is crumbling.

As for parameters, I've tested both the RO/DI water straight out of the filter and the tank water. All parameters are excellent. The only thing that I find a little strange is that my RO/DI water fills with micro bubbles when I add the salt. It take about 30 minutes to clear. Is this normal? I've never seen this behavior with LFS water.

Again thank you all for your help with these problems. I'll try to keep everyone updated.

[oddiseus]

sounds like all you really needed was an ro/di unit. I had one for a 55 gal. I was running, but then gave it away as I moved. when I set the tank back up it was algea heaven. I couldnt stand it. I broke the tank down and let all the rock dry out untill it was white. I bought a new ro/di (which my first one was the same one you bought) and then set up my new nano. I have not had any algea probs to date and I'm using all the old rock from my previously algea infested mess. One other thing I noticed after setting up that 55 in a diff tank for my mom was that the algea was there but the tank equilized and suddenly the algea was gone.... now this was only after her finally leaving the damn tank alone. So your options are this..... 1.) break the tank down and dry all the rock change the dsb 2.) leave the tank alone for awhile and let it equalize while you use the new ro/di unit.

I really recommend a euroreef skimmer, I have two between two tanks and they work great. I had an aqua c remora but they are overpriced and they are crap. however even with that skimmer which is still on my moms tank, it eventually equalized and controlled its own levels.

Be patient, I know you love this hobby. You know to much to turn back now.

Good luck.

-Odd

[jmcmahon66]

Wow. 750ppm for your imput water is aweful!!! Here in Chicago our water is about 200ppm going in. I am wondering about your 5gpd output of the RO unit. Do you have a low pressure well system or is there a way you can measure the input water pressure? You should get more than 5gpd from a 35gpd unit. This thread is full of useful information so you should be back on track soon. I would just like to reiterate: Water changes...lots of them, Clean the filter pads out daily, PO4 remover, carbon or purigen always. Also try not to blow the algae around when you do a water change, try to suck it out. If it does blow around, clean the filter pad ASAP afterwards. Good Luck.

[YellowDesmo998]

Go to http://www.aquasafecanada.com/ then buy his RO/DI system on eBay. I know MANY people, including myself that use their RO/DI units with great success. Best prices I’ve seen.

[oddiseus]

I bought my ro/di unit on ebay. Its a 7 stage that has the 4 gallon storage tank, auto top off, and even the thing for the sink to dispense good drinking water. Believe it or not it was only $100.00 + $50 for shipping, and I got 5 replacement cartridges as well. WHAT A DEAL, it was hooked up in seconds and runs great. This beat my old maxima hi - s that was only 35 gpd and worked like crap.

[Clarkii3]

i would invest in a good ro/di unit, sure you can use bottled RO but it will become a pain down the road and you have no idea when they replace their filters. Distilled would work as well, in the end you will probably end up buying a unit so buy it now. from there i would turn the lights off for a few days, more would be better (if you have no corals). after that i would take a turkey baster and loosen all the algae from the rocks and sand, scrape the glass as well. do a 50% w/c, do this for about 2 weeks, and problem should be solved, and no chemicals are added to your system. I would also consider adding a couple turbo snails. This method has never let me down.

[blaklite]

Again, I just want to thank everyone for their helpful responses. I now have what appears to be a much healthier tank although I am still fighting some of the same old algae growth on the sand. I upped my cleanup crew and they're helping, but not quite enough to keep me from having to pull it out. Most of my corals are quite healthy although my Xenia and Frogspawn are not nearly as extended as they used to be. Hopefully they'll improve soon too.

My main question is about my Kent Maxxima 35gpd Hi-S RO/DI unit. The Deionizing filter has a color changing section at the bottom. The unit came with no instructions (and no membrane, but a call to customer service got that corrected) so I'm not 100% sure what the color change means. Does it mean that I need to replace the Deionizing filter only? In any case, I'm quite disappointed at the life I have gotten out of the filter. The color changing portion was completely changed after only about 30 gallons of product water...that's less than the advertised full day's production! On top of that, the unit only produces about 10-15 gallons per day. I have uninstalled and reinstalled all fittings and filters but the output remains the same. My water pressure is between 55 and 65 psi and according to my TDS meter it runs about 650-750ppm. I know this is high, but is it so high that I should be seeing these results? If that's the case, the cost per gallon for this water is prohibitive. I'd be looking at about $2-3 per gallon!

Please let me know if you have any advice on what I should do. Thank you very much (again).

[Illuminati]

Wow, 650-750ppm is crazy high TDS. I have crappy well water and it's only in the 300's.
That's why your burning through your DI Resin.

I would go to The Filter Guys forum on here and ask what he thinks. He was very helpful when I talked to him. Maybe he has a solution or advice.

[mgengha]

blaklite, I fought a very similar algae issue last year in my tank. I tried water changes, phosphate remover, chemiclean, etc. Nothing ever removed all of the algae. The longest it would stay gone was three days then it was back to blowing it off with a turkey baster and scooping up what I could. I finally found a link on ReefCentral (that I no longer can find but this one is referencing the same issues http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=988473) that recommended turning off all lighting for 48 hours and covering the tank. I did a thirty percent water change after this blackout. After 48 hours you could have four hours of for your photo period for the first month As long as NOTHING came back, you could add an hour per week until you are back to your normal photo period.

If you see any sign of the algae returning, do the process over again. My tank was overran with this stuff so badly that I was at the point of quitting. It's been eight months so far since I did this and no sign of it. I left ALL of my softies, LPS, fish and sebae anenome (sp?) and did not loose any of these. My SPS however weren't so fortunate