nitrate issue-where is it coming from?

[moon jelly]

My tank has been set up for 14 months and I have always had nitrates. Once upon a time, unknowingly, I had bio balls with about 40lbs of live rock. My nitrates were 160!I found out at IMAC to get rid of the bioballs which I did last May. I still can not get rid of the nitrates. I have done 50% water changes every couple of days for 3 weeks. The lowest level of nitrate I got was 2.5. I then thought, maybe I am doing too many water changes. I did not do a water change for 5 weeks ( I was out of town). When I got home, my nitrates were 7.5 (this past Thursday). I did a 50% water change on Saturday and on Monday my nitrates increased to 10. Why am I getting such a high nitrate level and what else can I do to erradicate it? I use RODI water for water changes. Any advice would be appreciated as I am becoming very frustrated. Thanx!

[kiknchikn]

The nitrates are probably from overfeeding, which most people (including myself) tend to do.

Have you tried a refugium with macro algae in it? Or a protein skimmer?

[drummereef]

Do you have any filter socks, sponges, floss or any other type of mechanical media that you implement? How deep is your sandbed, and what sand type are you using? What skimmer do you have?

[amike5]

Have you tested your RO water? If your membrane has gone bad, it could be coming in from there as well; my tap tests at 20ppm.

[moon jelly]

I have an ASM G2 skimmer (for a 29 gal tank/20 gal sump). There is a sponge on my skimmer.I have a bag of carbon and a bag of purigen in my sump. My sandbed is 3-4 inches deep.I am not sure what sand I have. I believe it is aragonite 1-2mm.

[drummereef]

How often do you clean the sponge? Could be part of the issue. How often do you change the carbon and clean the filter bag? The sand is fine, maybe on the shallow side of a dsb, but it's most likely ok for nitrate reduction.

[Dr.FuManchu]

Its probably your sand bed. They are known to become Nitrate traps.

[Sk8r]

Actually, carbon bags, and maybe Purigen, can become nitrate sinks if left in the flow more than a week. You may want to deepen your sand bed to 4" if it is 3". Aragonite is fine.

Feed each fish enough to fill its mouth once daily. Period.

Some tap water brings nitrates with it. You are using ro/di, right?

If you have 1lb rock per gallon, why would you have a sponge in at all? They're as bad as bioballs.

[drummereef]

What foods do you feed?

[moon jelly]

What great suggestions to ponder! Please keep em coming!

I have not tested my RODI. I bought it new from a reputable person at the end of July.

I have not cleaned the sponge. It is on the return from the skimmer. Would it be OK to take it off and leave it off?

I change the carbon bag and purigen monthly. Both of these are totally submersed in the sump.

In regards to the sandbed, how do I make it not a nitrate trap?

I feed my fish a frozen concoction that a local guy makes. Not sure of all the ingredients (cuz it is a secret) but I know that is contains mussels, clams, squid, grouper, oyster eggs, brocoli, carrots, garlic, shrimp, brine shrimp and ???? It feeds omnivores, carnivores and corals. Many people in the area use it and they do not have nitrate issues (and fish/corals love it). I cut down feedings from twice a day to once a day. I might be feeding too much of a chunk.

[drummereef]

Take off and leave off the sponge on the skimmer for sure. The feedings could also be causing excess nitrates as well. If there is uneaten food or a lot of liquid you are adding to the tank at feeding, all these factors could be adding to the prob. Definitely cup back on the feeding and get rid of the sponge.

Don't worry about the sandbed yet. A lot of BB people rip on us. :D Do you have a proper cleanup crew for the DSB?

What fish and how many do you have in the tank?

[moon jelly]

I have 4 fish.....2 false perculas, orchid dottyback and a neon gobby. I also have 2 skunk cleaner shrimp, about 6 red reef hermit crabs, tuxedo sea urchin (not sure if he is considered clean up crew), 1 cerith snail, a couple margarita snails, some whelks (hitchhikers). I had some nassarius snails but they died off. Not sure if whelks got to them. Do I need anything else? I will remove the sponge. I like the idea of a DSB.....it is what is in the ocean.

[Sk8r]

How is your flow? Have you got any black spots in that sandbed, anything you can see? You might get a fighting conch---medium to small size: they can burrow into the sandbed and deal with that...but not until you catch those whelks, if that's what they are!

The strombus grazer snail looks like a whelk, but never grows beyond a third of an inch long. A whelk actually preys on other snails.

You do know that nassarius snails burrow into the sand and live there...

Your urchin is a good piece of cleanup crew. But you need more snails, and you need them to survive. Do you have bristleworms? They would be a very good thing. They clean where snails can't go. And is your skimmer working? How often do you empty the collection cup? S/b at least weekly.

[moon jelly]

Sk8r-thanx for the response!

I think my flow is good. I have a 9.5 mag drive in my sump with 2 returns (each return divides into 2).

I don't have black spots in sand bed. For sure they are whelks.They are about 1 inch long. I thought I had 2 or 3 until I started to remove them and put them into my sump (I didn't want to kill them.....I know, kinda girly). I have removed 10 of them and I was wondering if somehow, someway they were getting back into my tank.

I know nassarius snails live in the sand bed. When I had them, I loved to watch them come out to feed. Reminds me of night of the living dead.

What snails/how many do you think I should get? I have lotsa bristleworms. No problem there.

I don't get alot of skimmate. It is light green and I posted about this before but no one had any answers. I got a new ASM G2 in Aug. I know it is large for my tank but someday.... I want to upgrade. I was wondering if it is working too well and that is the reason I don't get too much skimmate. Most is skimmed out. Also, for a while I was doing the massive water changes. Maybe my water was "too clean".

[drummereef]

Sounds like you are doing everything you should be then. What nitrate test kit are you using?

[moon jelly]

I use salifert. But I must admit, it is kinda difficult to distinguish the pinks. I double checked it with another kit (don't know name) and they both came out the same.

The frustating thing for me is that I do think I am doing alot of the right things. This nitrate thing is a mind boggler. Being a scientific type of person, this is driving me crazy cuz it does not make sense.

drummereef-thanks for taking your time with your responses. I truly appreciate it!

[drummereef]

I'd check it in a couple of days now that the sponge is history. That really could be the issue mostly. Sounds like your husbandry is right on.

[Sk8r]

Just go on catching those whelks. Looks like you got a prime infestation of them with some rock or other.

I'm betting when you get the sponge out, that could be part of it. Also, if you have portions of that complex food that aren't being eaten at all by certain elements of your tank, that might be a source of nitrate. Maybe going over to a simple food like cyclopeeze for a while might help sort it out. Just thinking out loud here.
If your lfs can test the TDS of the ro/di water, that might be a good thing, too. We live in a farming area, and nitrates COME in our tapwater. The ro/di ought to totally get it out, but if something in there's not working right, that could be something to look at if other remediation doesn't work.

[moon jelly]

Thanks again drummereef! Is it possible that the nitrate can go down that fast after removing the sponge? BTW-before this skimmer, I had a different one that did not have a sponge. Still had a nitrate problem and still had no skimmate (I thought it was not working so that is why I went out and bought the ASM G2) Crazy!!!!!!!

[drummereef]

It's possible I suppose. Since you are removing the source, I would do a water change and test after that. Hopefully that's all it is. It's so close with your nitrates only reading between 7-10. That last little bit is always hard to pin down. The ASM should smoke - nice skimmer. Don't tell me your other skimmer was a skilter or seaclone. :D

If the food you are feeding (secret recipe) is frozen, I would drain the liquid off and feed only the solid food. Could be a contributor.

[moon jelly]

no it wasn't. it was a sealife systems. my reef guy told it was a good design. he even put it into his tank and you should have seen all the skimmate it produced! i never heard of skilter but have heard of seaclone. it has a bad rap. surprised they are still selling. btw-gateway from the west...are you from st louis?

[drummereef]

Yup, St. Louis is where I hail from. I love Chicago, though. Wish I lived there sometimes. :)

[moon jelly]

i have been to st louis a few times......for hawks/blues games! fun city!!!!!

[drummereef]

Ah, nice. The Blues majorly suck this year... I mean the last 5 years. I don't really follow hockey, but I know enough to know they are really not good. :lol:

[moon jelly]

the hawks have sucked for even longer. congrats on the cardinals world series win. tony larussa used to be the manager of the white sox. i missed the series though cuz i was in namibia.
i didn't find out who won the series (or even who was in the world series) til last week when i got home.

[drummereef]

Thanks - like I'm saying thanks because I had something to do with it. :D It was pretty cool, though. So why do you do so much traveling abroad?

[moon jelly]

wow-made it to page 2. hope people don't get mad that we are off topic. what did you have to do with the world series??? how do you know i do alot traveling abroad? i was in namibia because i volunteered for 15 days at CCF (cheetah conservation fund). i was taking care of cheetahs.....feeding, exercising, poop cleanding and one rescue. it was awesome! also did data entry, help build a nature trail and my own gig...brought 45 lbs of clothes/toys to an orphanage. besides learning alot about the cheetah, i learned alot about conservation. i am thinking of helping with the tracking of meerkat families in the kalahari next year.

[drummereef]

Wow! Now that is cool. Feeding cheetahs = awesome. That's so cool that you get to go to such neat places, what an opportunity. And on top of that you get to interact with the only other greatest animals on the planet (besides fish). I love big cats.

Oh, I had nothing to do with the series... unless you count sitting on the couch, watching it on tv! :lol: Sorry to get your hopes up. :)

[moon jelly]

you did get my hopes up.....thought you were a bud vendor at the stadium:D

[drummereef]

:lol2: I wish! :beer:

[moon jelly]

now to get back on topic....sorta.... do you know anything about lps coral? i posted a question in the lps forum and have not gotten any answers. i have lotsa issues with my tank.

[drummereef]

Definitely not my area of expertise. I'm just starting to get into softies myself. What do you have and what's the issue?

[moon jelly]

I have a couple of euphyllia (sp). One hammer, one frogspawn. In the past week, one head of each has receded. My calcium was low (300) and now I got it to 390. Will my heads rejuvenate or are they goners?

[drummereef]

Mmm, hard to say. I'm guessing they probalby will. The nitrate issue might have something to do with it. How's your alkalinity?

[drummereef]

What is your lighting by the way?

[moon jelly]

my alk was 1 meq but got it increased to 4meq. lighting is ( i always screw this up) compact florescents. i have one 65w 10000k and one 65w actinic

[moon jelly]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8598282#post8598282 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by drummereef
Mmm, hard to say. I'm guessing they probalby will. The nitrate issue might have something to do with it. How's your alkalinity?

this nitrate issue has been a thorn in my side!

[drummereef]

I hear that! Fluxuating alk for any coral can be bad news. Keeping it around 8-11dkh (3-4meq) is your best bet. That will help to balance the calcium levels too. The lighting might be a hair on the low side for the lps. But, I've been told many times I could keep hammers and frogspawn with my lighting. I've got a 2x96 on my 40 (10k/03). Same as yours.

If you can get the nitrates down a bit more, keep that alk up, and continue to do weekly water changes I think the corals will start to come back. But, like I said, I'm no expert. :)

[moon jelly]

I'm trying to keep my alk the same. it was 1meq when i got home from africa (was gone 30days). got it raised by the ca/alk 2 part solution. tomorrow, i will change my bulbs (they are 9 mos old) and maybe i should put the lps higher in the tank.in regards to weekly water changes, what % do you recommend? thanks for the info. gotta go night night now. also thanks for the laughs!

[drummereef]

10% weekly changes is a good number to shoot for. Definitely placement of the lps will help them. Good luck with the tank! Post some pics if you get a chance. Happy reefing!

[moon jelly]

I know this is OT but, I don't know if I'm tired or hallucinating but I think I just saw a mouse run across the floor! EEEEEEEKKKKK. I set some traps.

[drummereef]

Maybe it's the mouse that's making your nitrates go crazy! :lol:

[moon jelly]

thanx Sk8r for thinking out loud. I will continue to remove whelks. I did not know LFS will check TDS. I will call around to see who can check.
The sponge and carbon has been removed. I changed the lights. I am making water for a 50% water change. I'll let ya know if there is an improvement in nitrate level in the next few days.

BTW-still have not caught any mice.
Happy Thanksgiving!!!

[ppp]

moon jelly, please keep us posted on your results after removing the skimmer sponge. I have been frustrated for the last year with high nitrates, between 20-40ppm. and have done everything I can think of to knock them down.

[moon jelly]

ppp-Do you have an ASM skimmer too? Its strange because I know alot of people with this skimmer. They have left the sponge on and do not have an issue with elevated nitrates.

[ppp]

Yes I have an ASM G3. My high nitrates were one of the reasons I bought this skimmer. It works much better than either of my 2 previous units, but my nitrates are still at the same level.