Need some advise on basement sump idea

[1badbrd]

I'm toying with the notion of basement sump. I have a 90 gallon AGA reef ready tank that is next to a wall that has a hole going to the basement that is were the MH ballasts are.

I want to make tank maintance easier, easier to get more equipment, cool down the water in the summer, use my RODI more efficiently, get ready to leap over to the SPS collection.

So here is my problem I do not want to create more holes and damage to the walls. SO with that in mind i want to know if its possible to take two pipes down to the basement, 1 drain and 1 return.

I have the factory 1" drain and 3/4" return. Will that create a problem with proper flow for this to happen (basement sump)?

If i use a 1" drain and 3/4" return the return pipe will run roughly 10-15 feet depending on how well i can construct the angles and fittings. If the return is too small (3/4) then i will have to construct a way to feed the water back using a SCWD or something of that nature.

First i need help on figuring out what would be the easiest way to plumb the drain and return.

Then need help figuring out a simple sump that will big enough and simple enough to design (thinking of 55g w/ plastic bins)

Then i need help figuring out what equipment will support the power needed to return the water at a head of 15ft max.

I have looked at and read a lot of basment sump ideas and a lot were very detailed. I'm looking for a simple design. Large refugium for chaeto, room for big skimmer and a way to use my RODI with ease. Thanks for any advise.

[liquidlunch]

I have a system that is very similar to what you're looking for. My 90AGA RR is 13' directly above my 30gal basement sump. The pump is Gen-X PCX-40 with 3/4" flex PVC return and 1" drain.
http://rjhaudi.tripod.com/sump/[/URL]

[edshern]

With the help of Scott Wilson of www.JustCoral.com, 2 weeks ago I added this basement setup.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/edshern/SUMP/DSCN1158.jpg

Only two hoses through the ceiling, going up to my 92 g corner reef tank. (ignore the tank on the left, that's diggy the turtle)
We ran a pvc from the sump to the sink for water changes.
The first blue drum is now up on a table and is connected to a float valve for make up water.
I love this new set up.
I do have a small noise problem. We put in a durso stand pipe, and the water tends to build up, then surge downstairs. I starting to tweek a few things to stabilize the surging water flow, or quell the noise. I did put into the top of the standpipe a flexible air line, which helped some, but not enough. Still a little noisy.
Hope this helps you,
Ed

[stan zemanek]

sump in the basement is the best thing you could ever do! I would,nt be in the hobby if i did'nt have a basement. If your tank is going up against a wall just cut a section of the sheetrock out at the base of the wall and then drill your holes down through the 2x4 sill plate this way you only have to patch the sheetrock which is alot easier than trying to repair the floor. I have a MD70 as my return runnin wide open and my AGA drains handle that with no problem. I'm not a big fan of high turnover rates through the sump, (whats the point of runnin your water through the sump faster than your skimmer can handle it) so I think you could even get away with an MD55

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e319/paintman27/Picture012.jpg

[sjm817]

Not a problem! One drain and one return is just fine. Use 1" for both if you can. I'd target maybe 400 - 500 GPH or so. Scrap the SCWD idea though.

[grimreefer01]

you will get better flow using 1.5" PVC going straight down from the overflow thru the floor (easily covered with carpet if u decide to move the tank) and use 1.5" PVC for the return as well.. this will greatly reduce head pressure on the return line and keep things flowing for your SPS!

I helped a friend setup a basement sump.. only problem we ran into is that we had to modify the heater ducts that hang from the ceiling in the basement.. Cut the rectangular ones to install the circular and make room for the pipes to go straight up and down.. Used a hole saw to cut the holes in the bottom of the stand all the way down thru the flooring to the basement.. His house temp reached well over 90 degrees this summer and the tank stayed in the low 80's during that time.. This is definately the way to go, even if it required extra work.

[sjm817]

Return pumps are not for display circulation. A 1" drain is plenty to handle the flow needed between a 90G display and sump.

Here is mine. 180G with a 75G sump, 30G fuge (in the back). Gen-X Mak4 return for display and T'd to feed fuge. 1" Spa-Flex return, and dual drains. About 10' vertical.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a370/Cheerleader555240/DSC_0898.jpg

[1badbrd]

thanks for the help guys.

I was afraid that a 3/4" return might be too small also a max of 15' head might be too small to get the flow i would need to properly cycle the tank. I'm using a Mag 9.5 at a head of 2-3' so i wanted to keep the flow the same atleast.

I wanted to use the exsisting bulkheads if possible and with being affraid of 3/4" being too small i gave the notion of the SCWD idea.

Scott Wilson is a big help and have not asked this question in depth on the local forum but i'm sure i will get around to ask him and other for help.

I have a much better idea on how to make it work now knowing that a 3/4" return will be enough.

Thanks again.

I almost forgot to ask, would PVC pipe be any better then plastic tubing? With the hole in the wall i would need a lot of time figuring the angles or use a plastic tubing to make the angles i would need to route from the drain/return bulkheads to the wall.
Or would it matter if i use plastic tubing from the wall to the bulkheads then PVC from the wall to the basement and the rest of the stuff down stairs

[sjm817]

Can you run 1" return plumbing from the basement? Run 1" up to the 3/4" bulkhead. This will cut down on headloss. If you are running 3/4" plumbing from the Mag9.5, you are likely getting ~ 450 GPH or so.

Spa-Flex makes things really easy. That is what you see in the pic of my setup.

[1badbrd]

so you are saying use a 1" upto the bulkhead and use a reducer right before the bulkhead so it can connect to the 3/4".

Also what flow rate should i be looking for at the max head of 15' and the same flow as i have now?

[sjm817]

Yes. Run 1" (or larger) up, then adapt it to the 3/4" bulkhead. The 15' of vertical head is where you need the larger plumbing.

Why do you have 15'? Is the sump sitting on the floor of the basement? With that much head, maybe a Panworld 100PX

[1badbrd]

well the tank sits to the right of the wall that has the hole in the wall. The drain and return is on the left side of the tank, so theres 3-4 feet, then about 10' down and i have to shift the sump slightly to the left of the hole in the floor/ceiling of the basement. So roughing it 15' is the max, if i can set up the sump close enough under the hole in the ceiling, then it will less then 15', but the water heater and furnece are there so i have to work around that.

If i had to do it from the beginning then i would go straight down and it would be much easier, but this is my first time with this idea.

I looked at panworld and i'm still learning the flow rates of all pumps, cause price, heat and pwer concumption is in play

[sjm817]

The only thing that counts is vertical height. Horizontal adds a slight amount of head due to friction loss, but the vertical is what you need to use for calculating pump size. What is the height from the top of the tank to where the pump will sit?

[drummereef]

Check out this cat's thread. Killer system and basement sump.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=912127

[1badbrd]

if i plan it out right i could make the vertical to a min. of 6' i would just build the sump closer to the ceiling.

I'm still learning, so....

the horizontal would be adding some but i think i'm thinking too hard casue it would add to the drain side, not so much the return.

so what things should i look for in a pump with some of the info i have given?

[Savatage]

I am planning on doing the same thing with my tank and have a 2" drain with a 1" return. Do you think the MD55 will be enough? Just humor me for a sec, but who makes MD and where can I find it at a great cost?

[sjm817]

There is a HUGE difference in a pump that needs to push 6' and one that needs to go 15'. Make the sump height workable. Make it so water changes, sump maintenance, etc are convenient. Dont put it up near the ceiling. I made the bench mine sits on 36" high which is the same as countertop height. I wound up with ~ 10' of vertical height.

[1badbrd]

makes sence. When i figured 15 i was figuring from basement floor, up and with a couple bends left and right. I was calculating on the bigger end so i would not end up short, or with not enough power.

If i did the 36" from the floor i would guess 6-7' vertical height then 3' from the wall to the return bulkhead and just to add a couple of feet incase i can not build right under the hole in the basement ceiling, i might have to shift it cause of the water heater.
You are right, 15 was probably for my drain. SInce i will have to shift that further away from the hole in the basement ceiling, depending on how i set the sump system up, but i need help in that department too, cause what i'm thinking is probably not the easy way, so that 15' drain could also be reduced if the sump system was set up efficently.

[sjm817]

Just vertical. If the bench was 36" and the tank was directly over it, what would be the measurement from the top of the bench to the top of the tank?

[1badbrd]

36" to the top of the tank would be about 10 no more then 12'

have 4.5 ' from the floor to the top of my tank and about 6-7' from the ceiling to about 36" from the basement floor.

[sjm817]

10 - 12' sounds about normal. The thing is with pumps is there is not always just the one you want. I'm happy with the Gen-X Mak-4, but I would not use it for a 90G. You want a pump that is ~ 400 - 500 GPH @ 12' head. I dont know of one off the top of my head. Take a look at some flow charts and see if there is anything close.

[1badbrd]

is 400-500GPH about what my mag 9.5 is delivering now?

I though i was around 700 GPH or is that what you would recommend as far as flow rate?

[sjm817]

How is the Mag plumbed? If it is with 3/4", 450 - 500 GPH. With 1.5", 700 - 800 GPH.

An AGA megaflow is rated for 600 GPH. You typically want 3 - 5x display size for return flow. Thats 270 - 450 GPH for a 90G.

How big is the sump?

[1badbrd]

Ah, its 3/4", could i still shoot for more flow with the 3/4" and a better pump?

[Big Chippa]

0

[sjm817]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8625018#post8625018 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 1badbrd
Ah, its 3/4", could i still shoot for more flow with the 3/4" and a better pump?
Stick with 400 - 500 GPH. Your overflow is good for ~ 600 GPH. You dont want to exceed that or max it out.

[1badbrd]

Cool sounds good, but i was thinking of a 55 gal for my sump