Chaeto Meltdown! What the heck happened?

[alizarin]

I've had a bunch of chaeto growing in my refugium (2/3 of a 20L sump connected to a 40 display) under a couple of screw in CF bulbs, totaling 45 watts. The stuff has fantastic for maybe 9 months, I've given bags of it away to other reefers.

Then this week it started breaking up into smaller pieces, some of it turning a little brown but not much. Today I cleaned it up and the water got full of fine particles that a filter sock wouldn't take out, just heavy skimming.

The changes I've made recently around the same time as this problem:
1) I increased the ph with buffer from like 8.2, now it's 8.4 or 8.5
2) I've been feeding more - I was using dry foods like cyclopeeze and ocean nutrition, Now I'm doing mostly frozen shrimp and clams in a blender like on melvesreef.com.
3) I changed the refugium bulbs. The bulbs I had were 2 6500k bulbs run 24/7 and I hadn't changed them in 2 years. I replaced them 2 5500k ones. I THOUGHT that would be better for macro. It looks a little brighter too.

Nitrates and nitrite near zero. Softies and LPS doing fine.

Another question - Did I actually have Chaeto -
I bought a ball of "Chaeto" off someone online a year ago that had the consistency of thick fishing line, pretty dense in a ball (curly). It grew pretty slow. A few months later someone gave me a different variety of "Chaeto". It was like really thin fishing line, tended to lay out in sheets more than balls (not so curly), and grew MUCH faster. They both seem to be dying off.

Some of it looks okay, I'm going to put it in a bucket with the old light and circulation and see if it comes back.

HELP!

[kryppy]

If your nitrates are at 0 it is starving to death.
Your description sounds like cheato.

[musty baby]

How'd you administer the buffer? If you dumped it into your sump you could have killed it that way, otherwise I'm out of ideas. If you're feeding blended shrimp and clams to such a small tank I can't imagine you'd be starving the chaeto even if your tests are reading zero. What kind of nitrate test are you using?

[jnc914]

I agree with kryppy. Your system may be"too clean" to support cheato. Ihave always had trouble maintaining Cheato in the long term. Try Caleurpa on a 14-16 hour light schedule so as to avoid it going "sexual".

[alizarin]

Feeding and nitrates:------------------------
For the previous 9 months I was feeding quite a bit less - like 2 pinches of dry food a day to my 3 small fish (false clown, damsel, chromis). Now I'm feeding allot more... enough so it takes 10 minutes for most of it to be out of suspension in the water. The nitrates were always zero, now there's a hint more pink (more nitrates) in the test than there was (Seachem test). But always very low. By the way the frozen food is Octopus, Cuttlefish, Squid, Shrimp, Cooked Mussel. Is dry allot more nutrient heavy than those frozen?

The buffer ------------------------
I was adding it the way they say to add it - a tablespoon in a glass of cold RODI water poured into a different chamber of the sump.

[kryppy]

You should have seen it grow in my 180+ reading predator tank. :) I've been experimenting with sugar and they dropped to 40 and I have experienced the same thing.

[itZme]

I've had the same experience as have many others in my club. The problem seems to be the 24/7 light cycle. It seems that it grows like crazy for a few months then starts to wither. If you go to 12-14 hr lights it should come back and thrive.

HTH
-- itZme

[WinkeyWoneye]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8626323#post8626323 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by itZme
I've had the same experience as have many others in my club. The problem seems to be the 24/7 light cycle. It seems that it grows like crazy for a few months then starts to wither. If you go to 12-14 hr lights it should come back and thrive.

HTH
-- itZme
I agree here. I have chaeto and caulerpa in my fuge. I had them on a 24/7 light schedule for a few weeks to test it. I noticed NO new growths in that few weeks. I switched back to the reversed 12/12 schedule I previously used and noticed growth almost over-night. A plant needs some time in the dark for photosynthesis to work. I dont care for the 24/7 lights, I see no benefits from it. I'd rather have the alternating light schedule to help keep the pH stable at night.

[2swift]

Hey there alizarin.
If it is any help the cheato you donated to me from your fuge
Has done awesome in my fuge and has even grown nice and thick
And turned a real nice dark green. I run 12/12

[Randall_James]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8626349#post8626349 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WinkeyWoneye
A plant needs some time in the dark for photosynthesis to work Really?

A rapid PH change could have done a number on it, also a touch of iron can do wonders for Chaeto. I have always run mine on 24/7 lighting without any problems.

I would prune andy dead/unhealthy back. Your bucket idea sounds ok (small piece) and lots of tank water

[boxfishpooalot]

Sounds like water flow to me. The chaeto thats not getting any light probably needs some.

Also 24/7 is not good. I used to before and had that problem. Since running 12/12 I have not experienced crumbling or die off. But it may be too soon to tell 1.5months only.

[alizarin]

Thanks for the input everybody. I think it was a combination of low nutrients, and suddenly allot more light from the new bulbs that did it. I'm going to switch to a 12 hour reverse cycle and see how it goes.

Glad to hear its working good for you 2swift =)

[2swift]

TY again and if you ever need it returned you let me know.
Also just got my first frag going!

[adtravels]

I have also had really great results by using an iron supplement with caulerpa on a 13/11 cycle.
completely changed the growth rate of the algae and made it go a deep green colour.

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8638984#post8638984 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by alizarin
Thanks for the input everybody. I think it was a combination of low nutrients, and suddenly allot more light from the new bulbs that did it. I'm going to switch to a 12 hour reverse cycle and see how it goes.

Glad to hear its working good for you 2swift =)
What is your Alkalinity. To have increased PH from 8.2 to 8.4-8.5 using a buffer your alkalinity should have gone sky high, that can certainly afect the chaeto.

[WinkeyWoneye]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8635550#post8635550 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randall_James
Really?

A rapid PH change could have done a number on it, also a touch of iron can do wonders for Chaeto. I have always run mine on 24/7 lighting without any problems.

I would prune andy dead/unhealthy back. Your bucket idea sounds ok (small piece) and lots of tank water

Yes really.... This is like second grade science, is it not?? OK I should have stated it like this... " A plant needs some time in the dark for photosynthesis to PROPERLY take place." I have been a landscaper of 10 years I KNOW how photosynthesis works. While a plant will survive without any time in the dark, it may not thrive as it would having at very least a few hours in the dark. For all who seemed to have missed this part of second grade science class :D ...... plants collect there energy from light during the day and put it to use at night time to grow. I'm not getting into the scientific aspect of it but thats a basic run down. Havent you ever noticed your grass does not grow during the day, the growth occurs at night. The best time to notice this with your lawn would be spring/fall when the days are warm and nights are cooler. Grass grows like crazy with warm days/cool nights. Randall please tell us all what benefits you have seen running a 24/7 light schedule..... The reversed lighting schedule has worked alot better to keep my pH stable, as opposed to a 24/7 light schedule, from my experiences.

While, I'm not saying it wasnt a pH spike or alk spike that has caused this, the 24/7 lighting is a possible contributer of it. A spike in pH or alk will definetly cause die off.

[Randall_James]

This is like second grade science, is it not?? OK I should have stated it like this... " A plant needs some time in the dark for photosynthesis to PROPERLY take place." I have been a landscaper of 10 years I KNOW how photosynthesis works. While a plant will survive without any time in the dark, it may not thrive as it would having at very least a few hours in the dark. For all who seemed to have missed this part of second grade science class ...... plants collect there energy from light during the day and put it to use at night time to grow. I'm not getting into the scientific aspect of it but thats a basic run down.

Gee I must have missed my 2nd grade science class that day (and certainly no biology major)... you seem to have taken that question rather personal... (Did make me check my Biology books however)

My reading lead me to believe however that there were some other things going on:

Although I am not sure of the relation from "Grass" to "Algae" I will concede that your grass grows more at night but it is a different environment and set of conditions:

This quoted from my 1st year college biology text:

"For all plants, hot summer weather increases the amount of water that evaporates from the plant. Plants lessen the amount of water that evaporates by keeping their stomates closed during hot, dry weather. Unfortunately, this means that once the CO2 in their leaves reaches a low level, they must stop doing photosynthesis"

(Campbell, Neil A., Lawrence G. Mitchell, Jane B. Reece. 1999. Biology: Concepts and Connections, 3rd Ed. Benjamin/Cummings Publ. Co., Inc. Menlo Park, CA. (plus earlier editions)

I could not find reference to any other reason that the plants would do better at night. The thermal issue could explain your grass growing better at night I think.

Whether an aquarium suffers this same thermal issue is rather interesting but not sure that the cell structure of algae relates to that of grass... I will check my 3rd grade txt and see :)

EDIT: I did a context search and found the passage in another paper...
http://biology.clc.uc.edu/Courses/bio104/photosyn.htm

[Kurt03]

dosing iron should help out. Mine paused with growing after i got nutrients down really low from switching to rodi water. Started adding some iron and its growing fine again. Whats your alk at from boosting with a buffer? raising ph by adding buffer is a bad idea imo, unless your alk was way low.

[Randall_James]

Wow found some fun stuff on "circadian rhythms" and plants...

Most of the research has been done by 2 groups (NASA and pot growers, go figure)

Flowering plants "need" sleep in order to bud and flower (fruits and vegetables)

Wheat and other non flowering plants do not need sleep and grow twice as much under 24 hour light than 12... (must also require that they are not stressed by heat)

So would algae fall under non-flowering?

[Samala]

Algae would fall under algae I'm afraid, until more research is done. The topic of circadian rhythms (and mRNA turnover, microRNA control of expression) is a fascinating subject. The expression of genes from light to dark cycle is.. well.. like night and day! (Ha! ;)) Researchers typically use a mustard cousin, Arabidopsis, to investigate this.. try searching with that in your string.

I find it interesting that we are noting Chaetomorpha seems to do better under split lighting period, as opposed to constant light. I've never run it under constant light myself (havent done it with Caulerpa either).

However.. the times I've had Chaetomorpha sporulate or fragment, include: serious pH fluctuations, lack of nutrients in the tank to feed the Chaeto, lack of water flow and enough light to hit a majority of the cells.

>Sarah

[Randall_James]

It is actually pretty amazing that more in not known, guess someone working on a thesis just has not found it worthwhile yet.

It was interesting that flowering plants would resume normal 24 hour rhythms (blooming etc) after being returned to total darkness and left there after varied lighting cycles.

Are you meaning that with Chaetomorpha to sporulate or fragment are one in the same or are these distinct and separate events? (this would explain never hearing of it going asexual and creating the issues of Caulerpra)

[hansmatt]

The "dark" reactions of photosynthesis do not actually require darkness to occur (from a biochemical standpoint), rather they do not require light and can occur during lighted periods. They are often overlooked as less glamorous, though still necessary because they produce the necessary components from the light reactions to occur.
With that said, there are many others who know algae cycles & how light triggers sexual maturity better than I. I would agree that the sudden pH.alk changes may have contributed more so than the light period or intensity.

[Randall_James]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8642397#post8642397 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hansmatt
The "dark" reactions of photosynthesis do not actually require darkness to occur Yes the Dark periods were nicely documented in that article and you know the only teacher I really remember for HS is my Science teacher.... wanna trade jobs?

[Samala]

I was using the words interchangeably, though perhaps I shouldn't. Sporulation, to me, means there was formation of gametangia, gametes and then subsequent release into the water. End result bleached algae thallus tissue.

Fragmentation is exactly that, and what most people experience I believe. Chaetomorpha just decides the growing conditions are no longer right, and goes about splicing its cells apart. Interesting survival mechanism. End result lots of bits of Chaeto everywhere.

I havent had this algae sporulate on me, though I have had fragments of Chaeto die and decompose down to that classic bleached/limp state within the tank.

I wish I knew more about the life cycles myself.

>Sarah