Pinpoint Nitrate Monitor

[serpentman]

Anybody try this yet? I thought about taking a gamble but the cost of the replacement probe is pretty steep at $150.

[manderx]

might be good if you were testing many tanks (lfs or maintenance business), but i don't see the point in using it on one tank. your nitrates shouldn't really vary from 0 much once you are stable.

[reefbuzz]

Is it a true monitor or do you use it occasioanlly to test like the Calcium monitor.

[serpentman]

I thought it might be a neat idea to have running in the background. even though it should read 0 most of the time. However, reefbuzz, you raise a good question. After reading the online instructions, it is a spot tester. Therefore, as manderx stated, probably overkill for my application.

[RobbyG]

Feels like the old CA monitor to me also, they need to make these things with solid state probes.

Link to Manual

http://www.americanmarineusa.com/NO3monitor.html

[loudell]

Robbie, You can't create ion specific electrodes that are solid state for most ions. And for the parameters that you can use solid state; they have their own set of issues.
If you tried this meter you would not be disappointed...

[SWSaltwater]

Someone who is a beta tester for the product brought it in to my shop. It was awesome and very accurate. At the time my fish tank was at 7ppm and my coral was at 0. I was impressed and will be buying one as soon as my distributor gets em.

[RobbyG]

You probably right but I dont want to be the one of the firsts, I almost bought the CA, luckily I did some reading and heard of the horror stories of Calibration before each use.

There are two issue's that bother me about the unit based on reading the manual.

1) "Calibration is recommended before each use". Now if im going to do that, it would be faster just to use a salifert kit.

2) "Probe may have a life of up to 2-3 years" but the warranty says warranty for a "period of 6 months " on probe. Now if I felt fairly confident my probes would last 2-3 years why would I only give a 6 month warranty? Most companies play it safe and would say 1 year or 18 Months, at least 50% of the tested life but 6 months, that's warranty coverage for only 17% of the projected life.

[loudell]

Robbie, Bench testing found very little difference between a fresh calibration and using the last calibration but calibration is never a bad thing to do. I always fear the hobbyist that wants high precision and is willing to expend zero effort to achieve it. If you want a fast test and you know your nitrates are low just call it zero and skip testing all together.
Most probe failures after about 30 days are usually enviornmental with little or nothing to do with craftsmanship; that is why the decision was made for 6 months.

[RobbyG]

I guess from your post, you are involved with Pinpoint in some way. Don't get me wrong loudell I really do love Pinpoint stuff, I use your pH probes and all your stuff I have tried is top notch.

My problem is that the Calcium Probe was just a little too much work for me, I like your statement "I always fear the hobbyist that wants high precision and is willing to expend zero effort to achieve it" Now who doesn't like high precision without work, that's a dream come true :) As for the Nitrate probe, it seems to follow the same Model as CA and that makes it less exciting. I also disagree strongly on the 6 month warranty on the probe, if it really does cost $150 like serpentman said, it should have at least a 1 year warranty or clearly state that the usable life is less. You can't have your cake and eat it to, the warranty reflects your level of confidence in the product.

[loudell]

Robbie, the 6 month warranty is one of the longest in the industry so we probably just agree to disagree on that point. The nitrate meter uses a different probe design, different meter software with excellent error control and nitrate probes are much more stable than most other ion probes.
I know that it looks like the calcium monitor but it is a very different meter that will take a very precise nitrate reading to 1 ppm.
Many years ago everyone used their color pH test kit and thought their pH was 8.4 Now years later we know that many times that is not true.
Most reef hobbists think their Nitrate is zero. Well... some are and many are not. Perhaps those with best reef success have 0-1ppm nitrate but if your nitrate are 4-5ppm do you think you can spot it on your test kit?

[RobbyG]

I won't refute the Accuracy, I never even heard of complaints about the CA accuracy, just constant calibration complaints. I believe you 100% when you say this meter will be more accurate than any test kit.
My only problems are the one's stated above. BTW how much will this unit cost in the US$?

[loudell]

Cost is about $249 US

[RobbyG]

BTW this is the kind of probes I think should be used. From the description they sound perfect for tank use.

http://www.sentek.co.uk/direct.htm

[JER-Z]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8638263#post8638263 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by loudell

Most reef hobbists think their Nitrate is zero. Well... some are and many are not. Perhaps those with best reef success have 0-1ppm nitrate but if your nitrate are 4-5ppm do you think you can spot it on your test kit?

and why would it matter to know that nitrate is 4-5ppm instead of zero?

[loudell]

Robbie, the term solid state for the sentek probes mean that it is a sealed reference, non refillable with a built in half cell. Their construction is very similar to the PINPOINT NItrate probe.
When you refer to a "solid state" probe I thought you meant something like this:
http://www.sentron.nl/nieuw/

[RobbyG]

Now I am a bit confused, Sentek does call their probe solid state, but I see what you mean!
The main thing is that they say it can be submerged constantly and also needs almost no calibration. That's what I am looking for in future probes. Has pinpoint ever tried these probes, they have a CA probe and Nitrate.

[loudell]

Robby the maufacturer of the ion specific components for PINPOINT nitrate.calcium is the same manufactures as Thermo Orion. The quality is very, very high.
I don't see anywhere in the Sentec data that their probes can be used with almost no calibration and perfect continuous use.
It does say that you can totally submerge it as you can with any PINPOINT probe; nothing new there.

[TandN]

this is very interesting.... I agree with Rob from what I read the Cal monitor is a waste due to all the calibrating you have to do and its not cheap to have to always calibrate it cant you make a probe that holds better if there was one that could stay in the tank and continuely monitor it I would buy it in a heartbeat

[RobbyG]

I read that on another forum, I took a quick look at Sentek web page and assumed that

"directION electrodes are rugged solid state sensors with built in reference elements that do not require any filling solution or maintenance"

I thought no maintenance meant you did not have to calibrate it. If it has an internal reference why would it need Calibration?

Also I think I mistook the Completely submerged part to mean that it could be left in the Tank. The person on the other forum said it could be left in the Tank so I just continued that assumption.

Even if the probe cannot stay in the Tank I would be very happy if it never needed Calibration and I would buy it in a second.



<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8664714#post8664714 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by loudell
Robby the maufacturer of the ion specific components for PINPOINT nitrate.calcium is the same manufactures as Thermo Orion. The quality is very, very high.
I don't see anywhere in the Sentec data that their probes can be used with almost no calibration and perfect continuous use.
It does say that you can totally submerge it as you can with any PINPOINT probe; nothing new there.

[loudell]

"No Maintenance" means that it is "not refillable" and this has nothing to do with calibration at all. Internal reference has nothing to do with calibration either.
And when it is stated that the probe can be "completely submerged" this does not mean it will function perfectly as a continuous monitor; this means the probe will still work when completely submerged because not all probes will.

[RobbyG]

Thanks for the Info, I guess I will be waiting a few years till the Technology of CA and Nitrate get to the point of infrequent calibration requirements.

[TandN]

im with you rob i cant see spending that money to have to always calibrate it evry couple of times would be awesome to just leav it in like PH probes. I have a dialyseas and it has the conductivity probe so I always know my salinity is at. I would JUMP on a alk/cal/and nitrate if they worked like it also
T.

[loudell]

Calibration for the PINPOINT Nitrate can be about the same frequency as pH. Some people like to calibrate it a lot and some people like to calibrate it once a month....

[RobbyG]

You have a Dialyseas, wow nice. I have heard mixed things about them, is it all they claim it to be? are water changes really a thing of the past?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8671320#post8671320 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tanya72806
im with you rob i cant see spending that money to have to always calibrate it evry couple of times would be awesome to just leav it in like PH probes. I have a dialyseas and it has the conductivity probe so I always know my salinity is at. I would JUMP on a alk/cal/and nitrate if they worked like it also
T.

[TandN]

maybe we talk about this in PM so we donot hijack the thread feel free to PM me ;)

[TandN]

I only calibrate my PH probes from you guys like every 6 months and there normally hardly ever off are you saying it should be done alot more then that ????

[RobbyG]

6 Months is a long time, you should calibrate more often than that.

[TandN]

Robby PM box is full

[RobbyG]

Emptying it now. Thanks.

[jeffbrig]

Why would you need/want a nitrate monitor? I can count on one hand the number of times that I've measured nitrate on my reef, and it's virtually nonexistent (< .2ppm, the lightest color on the Salifert low-range). I can understand monitors for things that need to be checked frequently - I have pH and salinity monitors from Pinpoint - but Nitrate I just don't understand.

[RobbyG]

Well if Loudell was here he would probably explain better than me but he seems to be MIA. I PM'd him but no response.

I think Nitrate tests are important, sudden jumps in Nitrate can be used as a clear indication that something is going wrong with your Tank. Its also a good indicator of when you need to do a water change and how effective the change has been. Most times it's the fact that you cant read small amounts like 1 to 5 ppm accurately that makes testing it seem worthless, its also a time consuming test, so most people avoid it.
If this meter could do the tests quickly and accurately with a resolution that displayed small changes and can also work without the need for constant calibration it would be a worthwhile unit to own! On the other hand if it needs to go through a complicated calibration process each time you use it then it really has no value to me.

[DocG]

I have to hand it to you guys who have zero nitrates. Fantastic job! It is certainly less common for a reefer to have zero nitrates then to have high nitrates and if you have zero nitrates then it does not make sense for you to have a nitrate monitor.

In a perfect world, I too would have zero nitrates.

However, I have a problem

You see, I love my fish. The corals are nice but I want a lot of fish. Therefore I am always battling nitrates.

I have been able to get my nitrates stable for a while now but I really have no idea where they are at. I have a really hard time reading the color on the nitrate chart and with Salifert I know I am somewhere between 5 ppm and 15 ppm but I have really no idea where. I hate that.

So when this monitor came out I was really excited. I just got it in the mail today and can't wait to get home from work to try it.

My plan it to test the water periodically with the probe and calibrate it every 3 months or if I get a reading that I find suspect.

On my pinpoint pH probe I calibrate it every 2-4 months and I have never had to adjust it yet (after 2 years). It should be interesting to see how often the nitrate monitor needs to be calibrated.

[RobbyG]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8752101#post8752101 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DocG

My plan it to test the water periodically with the probe and calibrate it every 3 months or if I get a reading that I find suspect.

On my pinpoint pH probe I calibrate it every 2-4 months and I have never had to adjust it yet (after 2 years). It should be interesting to see how often the nitrate monitor needs to be calibrated.

You did read the whole thread Right? This is not like the pH probe, it needs calibration every time you use it. It's just like the Pinpoint Calcium probe.

[manderx]

Why would you need/want a nitrate monitor? I can count on one hand the number of times that I've measured nitrate on my reef, and it's virtually nonexistent (< .2ppm, the lightest color on the Salifert low-range). I can understand monitors for things that need to be checked frequently - I have pH and salinity monitors from Pinpoint - but Nitrate I just don't understand.


at the start of this thread i agreed completely with you. now i'm not so sure. for example, phosphates *always* read 0 on my salifert kit. not so much on my hanna though. and those differences that the hanna picks up makes visible differences in my tank. *maybe* it's the same way with nitrates, and that very small differences at the low end of the scale that the chem test might not really be any good at reading make big differences in really getting sps to their max potential (i've never seen paperwork proving the accuracy of the nitrate chem tests). so i would not get it for convenience but now i'm thinking i would consider it for accuracy if it really is more accurate.

though i just checked their page and it's 0 to 10 +/-1 on it's low scale, so maybe it doesn't dig down low enough to justify anything i just said :).

[loudell]

Fifteen years ago when PINPOINT pH monitor was introduced everyone thought they didn't need it because all the color pH test kits were showing pH at 8.3 to 8.4
I would be willing to bet that everyone thinks their nitrates are zero while typical reality is probably 3, 5, 10 ppm or more.

[RobbyG]

Loudell is right, the color charts are really poor at reading low Nitrate. Question is, how critical is 10 ppm N03 and can the unit read it accurately, consistently and be easily calibrated.

[DocG]

RobbyG,

I read the thread right. I have never used the calcium probe so I am unfamiliar with this style of probe. I knew that it was recommended that you calibrate it before every use. All I was saying was that based on my experience with the pH probe I wasn't so sure that it was necessary. I could be very wrong.

However, I found the calibration to be very easy. It is far easier and less time consuming then doing a traditional nitrate test kit (I find the pH monitor a time consuming nightmare to calibrate). Plus, getting an accurate digital read out is awesome. I still hate reading those color scales.

As I stated earlier with my Salifert kit I knew my nitrates were somewhere between 5 and 15 ppm. Now I know that they are 10 ppm :D

One thing that has always bothered me about nitrate test kits was that you can take the same water and use 4 different kits and get 4 different readings (I tried it). I have always been very skeptical of nitrate kit results. It is nice to get something a little more accurate.

[RobbyG]

DocG there are two water tests that I think every tank owner should do daily, Salinity and pH. The probes that you use for these tests need to be 100% in calibration or you stand a very good chance of losing all your corals and possibly fish. It does not take long for a pH probe to lose calibration, you should calibrate it at least once a month.

BTW I agree about the Nitrate kits all giving different readings, I think that is why pinpoint is excited about there product. It's interesting to note that another company sells a product on the Aquariumobsessed forum that tackles this from the other direction.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=979402&highlight=test
They offer controlled samples of various chemicals that you can use to calibrate your test kits! You get a bottle of eg. 5 ppm NO3 sample and then run it through your Nitrate test kit and see if it is reading correctly. If not you can adjust the drops of regents to get it correct. Very cool idea and just one of there kits calibrates a whole range of different tests.

[DocG]

I agree with you on both of those statements (salinity and pH being done daily) and it has been a while since I did a calibration on my pH meter.

I do check the calibration on the meter but not monthly (It has probably been about 2-2.5 months). It is probably a good idea for me to increase my calibration frequency.

My previous statements may seem like I am advocating not calibrating your equipment. The more I think about it the more stupid that seems.

Thanks for the gentle kick in the pants.

[RobbyG]

____________________________________
"Thanks for the gentle kick in the pants."
____________________________________

No problem,
speaking as a guy who skipped calibrating his Salinity probe for 2 months only to find that my perfect 1.025 reading was really 1.036 I know first hand how far these probes can drift. Funny part is that they always seem to be stuck with a reading that says "All is well, don't worry" while in reality your tank is becoming an Acid pit :D