BIO Balls Versus Live Rock

[smpross]

Hi All,
I have a 90 gallon reef tank that has been established with 75 lbs of live rock and a two inch sand bed for about two years. I am currently using BIO balls in my wet dry filter and I also have a canister filter attached. I have read that some people remove their Bio balls and just rely on their live rock for the bacteria. I have been having troubles lately keeping my Nitrate levels down. Even with large and frequent water changes. So here are my questions?

Should I remove my BIO balls? If so, how quickly?

Should I replace the BIO balls with more live rock in the sump where the Bio balls were?

Will this help my Nitrate problem?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Scott

[Salamander]

Bio balls and canister filters can both be nitrate factories. I'd definitely remove the bio balls and if you run the canister you need to change out the media at least every week. You can probably take it all out at once. I all its doing is making nitrates it should be pulled out right away. Maybe others will chime in with additional advice.

[LittlePuff]

Agree with Salamander.

[smpross]

Ok,
When I pull out all of the Bio Balls, do I need to put live rock into the sump or is the live rock in the tank enough? Also, what would be the use of the sump if it was not for the build up of bacteria with the Bioballs?

Thanks for the advice.

Scott

[masterswimmer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8680430#post8680430 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by smpross
Ok,
When I pull out all of the Bio Balls, do I need to put live rock into the sump or is the live rock in the tank enough? Also, what would be the use of the sump if it was not for the build up of bacteria with the Bioballs?

Thanks for the advice.

Scott

You seem to be confusing the purpose of a sump with a refugium. A sump is used to keep your skimmer, heater, fluidized media chamber (carbon and/or phosphate remover), calcium reactor, auto top off, return pump, etc. Also, there should be enough 'dry' space in your sump to handle any backflow in case of a power outage.

A fuge is where you want to put your phosphate/nitrate export media and LR for additional biological colonies.

swimmer

[smpross]

Ok,
I have a wet/dry filter. The filter has an area for my heater, skimmer and other mechanical devices (This is the Sump). I also have the area of my Wet / Dry filter where my Bio balls are. Would you consider this part of the Wet/Dry filter a "Fuge"? If so, Do I need to set up this portion of the wet dry filter differently? Currently, all of my Live Rock is in my aquarium.

Scott

[viggen]

my 90g reef had a wet/dry & also had a pretty bad hair algae outbreak

1st I purchased a skimmer.... ASM G3

this helped however everyone told me to yank the bioballs. So over a 2 week period the balls were yanked & withing another few weeks the hair algae was gone :)

I put my skimmer where the bioballs were & I was confused just like you were about where to put the LR. I have no LR in my sump

[smpross]

Thanks Viggen,
So it sounds like you are exactly where I want to be. I do not have a really bad algae problem. But my Nitrates are still high. I am running a Coralife 125 skimmer. It is in the sump part of my Wet Dry. I would probably move it over to where the Bio Balls were if I did not have to add the live rock as well.

Any other thoughts?

Scott

[azpharmd1]

I am currently experiencing a high nitrate problem as well and have begun the process of removing Bio-Balls. Once removed, does anyone have any suggestions at how to get into that area to set-up the protein skimmer since it is enclosed (wet/dry is split in half) with an acrylic shield or is the grate at the bottom of the Bio-Ball column able to be removed? Also, how would the return line be ran into the sump once the top of the bio/ball column has been removed? Does the return hose just sit in the bottom of the sump? Thanks and sorry for the dumb questions. Though it may be more inconvenient using a wet/dry as a sump, since I already have it I might as well use it.
Adam

[jpitch]

I have a 95g tank with nearly the same setup as yours. I have a mega-flow III sump that I converted to a refugium. I took out the bioballs but kept the tray that sat above the bioballs so I could put some filter pads to catch the chunks of waste sucked from the overflow. there is the "main" chamber that i put in some live sand and Miracle Mud. in this mixture i planted some macro algae. in the last chamber i have the CSS 125 and return pump. ideally i would have liked to have put the protein skimmer in the beginning area but having that tray prevented it. ammonia, trites, and trates are zip. HTH

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8680477#post8680477 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by masterswimmer
You seem to be confusing the purpose of a sump with a refugium. A sump is used to keep your skimmer, heater, fluidized media chamber (carbon and/or phosphate remover), calcium reactor, auto top off, return pump, etc. Also, there should be enough 'dry' space in your sump to handle any backflow in case of a power outage.

A fuge is where you want to put your phosphate/nitrate export media and LR for additional biological colonies.

swimmer


I would beg to differ... My "sump" is full of live rock and adds about 50 gallons of water to my total system. It is a high flow sump, that makes a direct part of the export system. My fuge is above the tank and is a low flow fuge (soon to increase flow) and is full of macro for nutrient export.

There certainly is nothing wrong with using a "sump" to handle part of the bioload of the system.

Bean

[masterswimmer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8680430#post8680430 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by smpross
Ok,
When I pull out all of the Bio Balls, do I need to put live rock into the sump or is the live rock in the tank enough? Also, what would be the use of the sump if it was not for the build up of bacteria with the Bioballs?


Bean, if you take note of the question I was responding to, you'll see Scott was asking if he needed to put LR into the sump. Once again, I say no he doesn't. Can he? Absolutely. He also asked:

what would be the use of the sump if it was not for the build up of bacteria with the Bioballs?

to which I responded:

A sump is used to keep your skimmer, heater, fluidized media chamber (carbon and/or phosphate remover), calcium reactor, auto top off, return pump, etc. Also, there should be enough 'dry' space in your sump to handle any backflow in case of a power outage.

Nowhere did I say there was anything wrong with using a "sump" to handle part of the bioload of the system.

However, most aquarists don't use their fuge to house all the equipment I listed.

A square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not a square. I believe you can use a sump as a fuge but I would not use a fuge as a sump.

swimmer

[BeanAnimal]

Sorry swimmer... I did not read the whole thread well enough.... my mistake :) I kinda skimmed through and caught your post and it tickled me kinda funny so I responded.

... now that is a rare thing... me apologizing :) I feel dirty now... off to take a shower. :)

Bean

[Fishbulb2]

I hate the term "nitrate factory". Bioballs don't create anything. They just remove the nitrification away from the live rock where denitrifying occur. It's much more like inefficient out-sourcing.
But yes, do as everyone has said and it should help.

Sorry, that was totally off topic,
FB

[masterswimmer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8684654#post8684654 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
Sorry swimmer... I did not read the whole thread well enough.... my mistake :) I kinda skimmed through and caught your post and it tickled me kinda funny so I responded.

... now that is a rare thing... me apologizing :) I feel dirty now... off to take a shower. :)

Bean

Lifes' too short. It's all good :celeb3:

See you next year in Pitt :thumbsup:

swimmer

[smpross]

Wow,
Thanks so much to EVERYONE for all of the advice. I think that I will go ahead and remove my bioballs. I kind of like the idea of leaving the grate for the Bio balls in place. I think that i might use it for a fuge. Take care.

Scott

[BeanAnimal]

We will be happy to have you heere swimmer. It should be a good time.

[LittlePuff]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8684921#post8684921 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Fishbulb2
I hate the term "nitrate factory". Bioballs don't create anything. They just remove the nitrification away from the live rock where denitrifying occur. It's much more like inefficient out-sourcing.
But yes, do as everyone has said and it should help.

Sorry, that was totally off topic,
FB

Yes, they do make nitrates. The bacteria in the bio-balls stop at the nitrate part of the cycle. That water goes into your system for your live rock to convert into harmless gasses. If you just had the live rock, it would make it's own that the bacteria can handle it to go through the last step of the cycle. Bio-balls put extra nitrates in the water.

[Fishbulb2]

I think that's exactly what I said. They just disassoctiate the nitrifying and denitrifying process. But no, they produce no more nitrogen then was ever introduced in to the system. It's just where. And yes, I do believe it causes nitrates to elevate in the water column. But only due to decrease in their removal, not an increase in their production. This is pointless anyways. We all get it.
FB

[smpross]

Ok, the Bio Balls are outta there as of this weekend. Now the questions is what to do with the space?

SCott

[LittlePuff]

More live rock?

[masterswimmer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8697531#post8697531 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LittlePuff
More live rock?

Ditto

[viggen]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8693234#post8693234 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by smpross
Ok, the Bio Balls are outta there as of this weekend. Now the questions is what to do with the space?



buy a bigger skimmer

make it a fuge

decisions..... :)

[smpross]

Ok,
I have started to remove the Bio Balls. I like the suggestion of turning the wet/dry into a Fuge, but I must admit that I have no idea how I could do that. Is there any threads that anyone knows of that would describe the process?

Thanks.

You all have been a great help.

Scott

[catfisher]

I replaced my bioballs with live rock and it has worked well so far...

[LittlePuff]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8701535#post8701535 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by catfisher
I replaced my bioballs with live rock and it has worked well so far...

He's wanting to take his out.

[summer6]

For my reef tank I use my old Ehiem (from freshwater days) to increase circulation, but have it 3/4 filled with crushed coral. Have a sump and threw out the bio balls immediately and filled the 2 of 3 compartments with live rock -that sits just above the sump water line, and also breaks the noise of the 2 overflows. It definitely helps with nitrates.