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reefman77
12/06/2006, 06:27 PM
I have been fighting the battle with fluctuating calcium levels.
as of now, I am dosing kent marine Turbo calcium because I have also had alkalinity trouble and the turbo calcium dosent effect the tanks alkalinity.

I have trouble finding the time to test calcium levels and adjust them frequently enough (Im a high school swimmer so I get up for practice at 5 every morning and I get home at 6 every night and when I get home all i want to do is eat and sleep!!!)

I am looking for a automated option that is easy, reliable, involves little maintanance (set it and forget it) and is cost friendly.

so far I have found 3 different automated methods for calcium

The first is a calcium reactor
the problems are price and it is big (I have a 120 gallon tank with a 40 gallon breeder sump in the stand underneath so I realy dont have the room for a reactor and Co2 bottle

the next is Kalk
I am realy not sure on how to dose kalk and how automated it realy is. all I know is it involves a moderate priced reactor.
If anyone can Help me understand this beter, It would be a big help

Finnaly is the Balling method
I have been very interested in this method since I saw this TOTM winner
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-08/totm/index.php
it apears that he uses dosing pumps to keep up with all of his supplimentation.
If anyone knows of a good quality dosing pump for this method that isnt very expensive that would also be a big help


so, i would like to see some pics of tanks useing each of these methods (all threads are better with pics :) ) and if you have experience with any of these methods, please share anything that might be usefull to me

Thanks

antonsemrad
12/06/2006, 07:37 PM
Well my fav is kalk. I recommend having a large container, and dosing the lime water with a dosing pump (http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium_dosing_pumps_top_off_aqua_medic_SP_3000_sp3000_niveaumat_reef_doser.asp?CartId=). I put that one in as an example, because it is the one that I use. But I think that there are better ones out there for a better price. Anyway, a pump like this can pump up to 30 feet away. So you can keep your reservoir in the basement, closet, ect.. wherever.

Topping off evap water like this has many advantages.....not the least being a cheep way to replace calcium/carbonate. It also creates a sink for c02. To much c02 is a common problem made worse with calcium reactors. It also further purifies your ro/di water, and remineralizes it. Its easy... add, mix, and fill weekly.

The downside is you can only add so much of it. So if your demand exceeds your ability to add, you have to find another way to add more. That is when 2part comes in handy, or a reactor. But limewater by far is the best place to start IMO.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.php

It also sounds to me like your magnesium levels are out of wack.
Here is more on that

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-06/rhf/index.php

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-07/rhf/index.php

reefman77
12/07/2006, 12:14 PM
That pump says it has a fixed flow rate of .8 gallons per hour. does that mean the pump is run constantly and you are constantly adding Kalk water to your tank?

Im still a bit confused on how the dosing works

antonsemrad
12/07/2006, 12:19 PM
You put it on a timer. On mine the pump runs for 1 hour then off for 5. 4 hours per day=about 3 gallons.

Check on fleebay for refurbed pumps from the medical ind. They are prob better quality and for a better price.

jgoodrich71
12/07/2006, 02:27 PM
I have the one, second down on that page, that has a float switch. It keeps the sump topped off with kalkwasser from a 10 gallon resivior. It last a couple of days on my tank (about 3-4).

sfsuphysics
12/07/2006, 02:46 PM
If you want hassle free.. calcium reactor, sure there's some initial dialing in, but all other methods pale in comparison. Kalk is nice, but meh.. still issues with it, I'd stay away from dosing pumps adding 2 part type additives too. But that's just me.

hobogato
12/07/2006, 03:09 PM
i used to dose B-ionic, and that became way too costly on a continuous basis, so i went with a calc. reactor and a kalk reactor - since dialing them in, my coral growth has greatly increased and the tank is much more automated than ever before.

messy1messmer
12/07/2006, 03:29 PM
i use kalk and home made 2-part and it works great. It costs like 3 dollars to make a gallon each of the 2-part. really the balling method is 2-part with mag. additive. That the same iwan uses

Lagger
12/07/2006, 05:25 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8695355#post8695355 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by reefman77
[B] I am dosing kent marine Turbo calcium because I have also had alkalinity trouble and the turbo calcium dosent effect the tanks alkalinity.

Where did you read this? I find this highly unlikely.....

reefman77
12/08/2006, 05:42 PM
the back of the container says it and I heard it somewhere on RC

fishdoc11
12/08/2006, 06:18 PM
I would sugest a kalk reactor and pump to start if your tanks needs aren't too high. Then you can allways suppliment with 2 part and eventually get a dosing pump for that. Much cheaper than a calcium reactor. Calcium reactors work great but they are not needed, or even wanted in my case, to have a successful tank.
I use Randy's homeade 2 part and kalk...here is the latest incarnation of my tank:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y247/fishdoc11/Dsc01778.jpg

And the last incarnation:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y247/fishdoc11/Dsc01676.jpg

2 part and kalk used for Calcium supplimentation on both.

hth, Chris

messy1messmer
12/08/2006, 06:52 PM
fishdoc11
i have a 120 just like yours and oh my good you have a beautiful tank. How much 2-part do you use? how kalk do you use and what kind of lighting do you have. Also how ofton do you use the mag. part. i really dont want to use a cacl. reactor as well.
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r130/messymessmer/DSCF0914.jpg

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r130/messymessmer/DSCF0913.jpg

fishdoc11
12/08/2006, 07:22 PM
Thanks.....your tank looks very nice as well Steve:)

I am using about 110 ml each of A and B a day and probably 2 tablespoons of kalk every 4 days or so. I don't use the Mag part at all allthough I probably should use a little. With regular water changes my Mg stays around 1250.

Chris

messy1messmer
12/08/2006, 07:28 PM
are you using MH or T5's

messy1messmer
12/08/2006, 07:30 PM
i think i am in a growth spurt because i am using about 180 ml a day and having trouble keeping it up there.

fishdoc11
12/08/2006, 07:37 PM
I am using 2 250 SE 10K Ushios on magnetic ballasts and 3 110 UVL superatinic VHO's.

Anyone else care to share their calcium supplementation method and show pics?

Chris

Serioussnaps
12/08/2006, 09:54 PM
I got some pics of my kalk doser...they are right after i moved the tank and just set it up so they are sloppy pics(i mean right after the move) so please forgive all the wiring and "chop shop" look, but you will get the idea.

PERISTALIC PUMP----ro/di water mixed with kalkwasser(1.5 tsp/1g) i was using a 5 gallon jug at the time but you can use any size food safe container that is fairly airtight because kalk will degrade..i drilled a hole with a grommet on this particular 5 gallon bucket and fed the tubing through.....so far this method is working just kalk but as my frags growout on the new setup i may need a ca reactor, but by that time ill be done with the growout tank.....this can also be easily converted with different tubing to make it a "2 part doser"......it is wont back siphon or overdose anything!!!!!!.....the only drawback i have found is that if the power flickers you have to reset the pump.......could be bad if you were out of town too long.....otherwise this is failsafe(no float switches...downfalls of many tanks)

as for STABILITY and PARAMATERS

SG-1.025 constant day and night
ph-8.25 day and 8.15 by night
ALK-8.3 constant
CA-420 constant
Mg-the drawback of kalkwasser, kalk causes mg to be depleted at quicker rate so i have to add more mg than most, alot for a 55 gallon growout tank

Gives me great stability. I will continue to use it on my planned larger system that i move my acros to when they all growout, so it isnt a peice of equipment you trash or sell later.

www.innovativeaquatics.com

PICS

<a href="http://photobucket.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m255/Serioussnaps/P1010419.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>

it drips slowly 24/7 into a high flow area of my sump, i have to refill a 5gallon jug(4.5gs of water) every 3 days, 3.5 days techinically but i am not home so it will run out so i do it after 3 days instead of 4

<a href="http://photobucket.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m255/Serioussnaps/P1010421.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>

I will go take some updated pictures of the setup that is more organized if you all dont get the idea, which I am sure you do.

glaudds
12/08/2006, 11:46 PM
I use a Ca reactor and a Kalk reactor. I've got a 6g reservoir RO/DI water in the hood.....


http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b60/GLAUDDS/Picture005-1.jpg


which gravity feeds into the kalk reactor....


http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b60/GLAUDDS/CIMG0195.jpg

which goes to a kent float valve on the overflow side of the fuge...

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b60/GLAUDDS/CIMG0202.jpg

Ca reactor effluent goes into a small compartment with a pH probe (controlled by Reefkeeper 2) which overflows into the sump.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b60/GLAUDDS/sump/march2006009.jpg

Parameters stay rock solid with minimal maintence. The most work is refilling the reservoir every 3 days. Every month or two I replenish/replace the media in the reactors. I test about every 3-4 weeks...Ca 410, alk 8.5 dkh, pH 8.1-8.2, Mg 1300.

reefman77
12/09/2006, 09:13 AM
thanks for the help

Im off to go by some Kalk right now. I built a DIY dosing bottle. Its a one gallon milk jug (cleaned) with a hole drilled in the cap. the water flows through air line tubeing with a micro ball valve attatched to control the drip speed.

Im wondering how much kalk to use for my tank. It is a moderate/low stocked 120 gallon tank with about 30 gallons of water in the sump

messy1messmer
12/09/2006, 09:52 AM
2 teaspoons is most a gallon of water can absorb. At least thats what Randy holms farley told me.

messy1messmer
12/09/2006, 09:55 AM
another thing you can do is go anywhere water is sold and buy one of those 5 gallon water jugs and put a hole in the bottom and do it that way to. All you tank top off should kalk. 5 gallon jug is better because you dont have to mix it as often as gallon jug.

xtm
12/09/2006, 11:36 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8713357#post8713357 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by reefman77
thanks for the help

Im off to go by some Kalk right now. I built a DIY dosing bottle. Its a one gallon milk jug (cleaned) with a hole drilled in the cap. the water flows through air line tubeing with a micro ball valve attatched to control the drip speed.


I've used this exact method for months... this will work but you will find yourself topping off and refilling the kalk container almost everyday, which is a hassle. Not to mention that the control valve at the end of your airline tubing will occasionally clog w/ precipitate.

When I installed the AquaMedic Reefdoser, kalk dosing and RO/Di topoff became totally automated! Salinity and Ph are now stable 24/7. Kalk is dripped at a constant interval ALL DAY. The ONLY "maintenance" that I need to do is scoop Kalk powder into the mixing bucket every Saturday; the system does the rest.

http://members.dslextreme.com/users/xtm5/reef/reefdoser.jpg

I have two buckets in the garage (approx 20 FT from the display) The Reefdoser pumps RO and Kalk mix into the sump. The two buckets both have Kent Float Switches installed so they are always full. A powerhead on a timer is installed INSIDE one of the buckets to mix kalk every 4 hrs.

hope that helps :D

Serioussnaps
12/09/2006, 02:30 PM
Thats the key---------drip it ALL DAY. Brings unbelievable stability to your tank. It takes a couple of weeks to get it dialed in perfectly.....just calculation of evap rates, ca and alk consumption but once you get a grip on it you are good to go and can almost predict changes in any of the aforementioned variables.

antonsemrad
12/09/2006, 03:42 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8713357#post8713357 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by reefman77
thanks for the help

Im off to go by some Kalk right now. I built a DIY dosing bottle. Its a one gallon milk jug (cleaned) with a hole drilled in the cap. the water flows through air line tubeing with a micro ball valve attatched to control the drip speed.

Im wondering how much kalk to use for my tank. It is a moderate/low stocked 120 gallon tank with about 30 gallons of water in the sump

That is an excellent place to start.:) I still think that that is the best way to add. Not very fancy, but very effective. Its just a little time consuming.

As for how much..... I would say start witha 1tsp per gallon, and one gallon per day. If it is too much... you will get deposits on your heaters/pumps. If its not enough.... you will see your alkilinity drop over time.

It seem to me like a reef tank will develop a 'thirst' over time. Even in a tank with no stony corals or clams can use a fair amount of ca/carbonate (kalk). However this happens best (I think) if it is added at least daily.

dots
12/09/2006, 04:21 PM
I have been using the b-ionic gals with the sentry doser as Serioussnaps for a few months.......

I really don't know how I could improve on my alk and Ca stability with a doser and two part......ROCK SOLID!!! The sytem is simple and reliable, no reactors to qet out of tune, low ph.....etc.....

I use to test everyday, but now have backed it down to once a week just to ensure the levels........

TOTALY SATISIFIED one of the best decisions I made, though my uptake is still on the low side, mine are developing into mini cololnies and am on level 13 of 300........I think this system will last my demand for quite a while. So far I have to replace the jugs every month and a half, unitl my demand gets super crazy I will stick with the B-ionic and may switch to homemade then......but hey thats why I work right? This ain't a poor mans hobby, and SPS happen to be on the high end of that.

Serioussnaps
12/10/2006, 12:18 AM
hey dots.....how are you doing your water top off if you are doing the 2 part in the doser?

i was thinking about the nautilus(a second one) for 2 part when topoffwasser wont keep up anymore instead of a ca reactor...i suspect the ca reactor will save me money in the long run when i get into a large tank

ReeferAl
12/10/2006, 05:21 PM
All my topoff is limewater (kalkwasser). I use around 7 gal per day, administered by level sensor and dosing pump. It is kept in a 50 gal plastic drum and the drum has constant replenishment of the RO/DI water by a float switch. I stir the drum about once a week to keep the limewater near saturation.

The limewater is not enough for my tank though so I also dose DIY 2-part. That is doesed by peristaltic pump (Liter meter III).

This solution has kept my Ca and alk levels extrememly stable, but it is not a "cheap" alternative as I use a total of 3 peristaltic pump units. Two of these are on the LM III, and the third is separate as the LM III couldn't dose enough limewater.

No matter what system you utilize it will not be completely "set and forget". You will still need to periodically test water parameters as Ca demand can change over time.

Allen

dots
12/11/2006, 06:57 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8717987#post8717987 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Serioussnaps
hey dots.....how are you doing your water top off if you are doing the 2 part in the doser?

i was thinking about the nautilus(a second one) for 2 part when topoffwasser wont keep up anymore instead of a ca reactor...i suspect the ca reactor will save me money in the long run when i get into a large tank

I top off by hand, its the first thing I do when I get in the evenings is top off the water, check frags we not knocked off....etc...

To be quite honest I am a little nervous about automating everything as some have........more gagets and gizmos to go wrong.

I checked my Alk and Ca last night.....both a little on the low side, but in VERY good balance, in fact was suprised. Like I said I am totaly satisfied with this delivery method as of now.

Is it the best method economicly with a heavily stocked tank, I don't know, but for someone with frags and smaller colonies like myself I prefer it to any other delivery method I researched. Simple and straight forward. But should be done after someone fully understands how to adjust the Ca/Alk by hand. But thats my personal opinion, to do it by hand and learn how and why your doing it, before automation. The reason I feel this is automation problems happen big and fast and that is how a crash happens.

ReeferAl
12/11/2006, 09:47 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8729722#post8729722 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sacramentodots
The reason I feel this is automation problems happen big and fast and that is how a crash happens.

That is not necessarily true. Yes, there have been automation failures that have caused major disasters. That is generally due to poor design of the automation system.

Any of my automated systems have been followed through with all the "what if" scenarios. If my peristaltic pumps fail then NOTHING gets dosed. That takes alot longer to cause a major problem than dosing too much of something. If the limewater doser tubing plugs for example, after a couple of days the water level in the sump is noticably low and I unclog the tubing. Even with a low sump level the salinity doesn't rise to any harmful level. I know how long it takes to dose a bucket of calcium chloride or sodium carbonate. If that isn't dosing I notice after a few days that the level isn't dropping. It can go a week without dosing and not have either Ca or alk get dangerously low. I don't have the time to do anything every day. There are often several days when I can't spend more than a few minutes with the tank. Those days all I really do is look for any signs of trouble. If your schedule allows that degree of structure and you feel better dosing manually everyday then go for it.

Allen

dots
12/12/2006, 03:22 AM
That statement was really connected to the other about automating things before one really understands what is going on and how to correct the fast.

I think we live in a society where people don't want or care about how or why things work.....just that they do. That philosophy could get one into trouble combined with automation. I think automation should be the last step, after you have paid your dues and are absolutly tired of adding and measuing daily.......

And yes well thought up systems with built in redundancies are the proper way to design the system. Being an M.E., the setup and design of the systems is one of my favorite aspects of the hobby....but I think too much automation disconnects us from the tank. I like to be involved and responsible for it. Kinda like driving a manual versus automatic transmission car.

Serioussnaps
12/12/2006, 12:08 PM
I agree with both of you, but before i automated i did understand. All you got to do is test the heck out of your CA and ALK for a few months and figure out your consumption at different points of time in the day. Also, over a while you get a feel for changes in that consumption as they grow or if you add new livestock. My concern was if you add all at one time in the day you are causing a swing....but i guess your corals get used to that anyways. What do you do when you go out of town?

BTW------kalk can be dosed higher than 2 tsp/1 gallon........gotta use vinegar and then you better know what you are doing

peristalic pump---------fail safe....it wont overdose.....just might stop dosing in which case if you look at your tank daily you wouldnt miss it

bigt0706
12/12/2006, 11:30 PM
so would i have a problem if i used a electronic float vale and pumed water into seperate bucket with kalk,then into the tank for evap ,or can u safly mix the kalk in the bucket with the pump and add it directly to the sump

bigt0706
12/12/2006, 11:34 PM
also how much turbo calcium can you safely add to raise your calsium i trying to bring it from 300

Mogrash
12/13/2006, 10:23 AM
I would keep your water evaporation pump separate from dosing pumps. While topping off with kalk will keep your levels mostly in line, you can easily control the amount you need on a steady basis rather than having it tied directly into your evaporation rate which will fluctuate a lot depending on the climate you live in.

For example, winter months tend to have less moisture in the air which increased the amount of evaporation. Spring is high in moisture and lowers evaporation. Summer I have fans on to keep the tank cool and that creates a lot of evaporation. So if I was replacing all of my evaporation with kalkwasser I would have drastic changes over the year. Better to dose kalkwasser for set amounts of time based on the calcium requirements you need (either steadily 24/7, night cycle to boost pH, or at intervals to keep pH from rising too much). Let your water level topoff pick up the slack if needed.

I use the Tunze osmolator for replacing my water evaporation and run a (lab grade, but you can get the Aquamedic doser for $90) doser for kalkwasser topoff. Both draw fresh water from the same container.

Serioussnaps
12/13/2006, 11:54 AM
its not hard to figure the change in evap rate and adjust your doser accordingly....thats what a doser is for

fishdoc11
12/13/2006, 01:24 PM
I agree that is safer overall to run something like an osmolator(that is triple redundant) for topoff and to use peristaltic pumps for kalk and/or 2 part......at least that's the conclusion I have come to as well. Seperating dosing from autotopoff adds another level of safety to the system.

Chris

Mogrash
12/13/2006, 02:50 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8742848#post8742848 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Serioussnaps
its not hard to figure the change in evap rate and adjust your doser accordingly....thats what a doser is for

If you are adjusting a kalkwasser doser by the change in evaporation you will not be providing a stable calcium/pH environment. You should be adjusting it by the amount of calcium your system is using.

A straight doser isn't necessarily the problem, as long as it isn't tied into an auto-matic topoff.

Some people do auto-matic topoff and run it through their kalkwasser additions. To me that is asking for trouble.

Not sure about you, but a doser that can put in a gallon/hour that gets stuck on=death of tank.

I can think of plenty of scenarios where not using a separate auto-top off could be problematic.

old salty
12/13/2006, 11:58 PM
As things stand right now, I'm back to where I started and only perform 10% weekly water changes to maintain parameters. This is on a 125g SPS tank. As the tank aged, I began dosing limewater and this worked out great for a while, but the needs grew. I tried manual dosing and this lasted about a week; too much farting around for my tastes, so I broke down and purchased a calcium reactor. At this point, I'm doing 10% water changes every week with TMPR, going through about 2.5 gallons of saturated limewater for topoff and have a calcium reactor chugging away. Things were as steady as can be until I dropped a bomb by switching salt mix. I started using Marine Environment salt and things got really out of hand. A new batch tested 450 for calcium, and within 2 weeks, my tank calcium level shot up to over 600. I pulled the calcium reactor off line and performed a large water change to get the level down. I lowered it to about 500 and waited for it to fall on it's own. Within a week, it was back up to 550 (going in the wrong direction) so I dumped about 30 gallons of saturated limewater down the drain and filled the topoff container with straight RO/DI water.

I am now back to where I started, only now I have 8 lbs of pickling lime and about $600 worth of calcium reactor and associated equipment collecting dust. Corals look great and are showing steady growth with nothing more than weekly water changes. Parameters have leveled off and are easily maintained.

antonsemrad
12/15/2006, 09:58 PM
I add 3gal kalk via peri-pump everyday. I also use a ca reactor. It has to be automated because I am a otr truck driver. Well last week before I left I noticed that the co2 tank was mt. No time to fill it. So I put the kalk on double time and left.

Today when I got home the Ph monitor said 7.6:eek2:. The sump was about 5 gal overfull. The 38 gal lime water bucket was mt with the peri- pump running dry.

I then tested alkilinity. 1.83meq (5dkh):eek2: The first test I overshot. I then tested twice more.

It's hard to belive, but nothing bleached.....

I baked some baking soda and I'm adding it a little at a time(dissolved in water)

I wonder if the higher ph made the ca/carb consumption go up, or if I didn't realize how much the reactor was adding.

In any case... my crappy tude about my reactor has been ajusted now that I realize what its been doing, and that I know that the 30 pound c02 tank leaking in the house for the past six months has been contributing to my ph issues.

Moral of story...... do the soapy water test.

Serioussnaps
12/16/2006, 11:43 AM
I set my doser rates by ALK consumption....if CA and ALK is the same when you start kalk then it doesnt matter which you choose and i choose alk because i think it is more important than CA and it is cheaper to test more often.You adjust the amount of water or the number on the doser to evap!!!!! you adjust the amount of kalk you put in the water based on CA/ALK demands......think before you type dude You are confused as to a peristalic pump being the "auto top off" that you are used to. A refurbished med pump is an autotopoffdoser.......think of it that way. You dont run anything through kalk.....you mix the kalk in the water. I am willing to bet my left testicle that it never overdoses and never crashes my tank. You wanna bet your left testicle on it?

I feel 100% safe with my refurbished medical pump. If it could have been used on a person then ill let it be used on my tank. For me separating kalk and top off would be assanine as i think "kalk stirrers" are junk and adding another peristalic pump would be pointless as you need the water to use the kalk, and both units would cut off when power flickers so there really wouldnt be any redundancy on 2 separate "peristalic" pumps.