Recipe 1 alk suppliment solidifying as it's added...

[20 20]

Still trying to get the dosing right, now I'm trying to get it right on my new 125 gallon. I've been using Randy's recipe 2, with uncooked baking soda, and that works fine, but I need to add 500 ml of that alk and CA suppliement. So, I decided to try recipe 1, the cooked baking soda. So, I mixed up a batch, and added the alk suppliment to the tank. As I was adding it in, it solidified so there were a ton of little pieces floating around in the tank. They eventually went away. This was done without adding the CA suppliment. I added that 10 minutes later. I'm assuming this 'solidifying' isn't normal, and something 'funky' is going on, so I figured I'd ask here. Does anyone know what's going on?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That is normal, and happens with all high pH two part additives. Add it to a high flow area to dissolve it faster.

It is not solidifying, but the locally high pH temporarily precipitates magnesium hydroxide, which redissolves as it mixes in:


from:

What is that Precipitate in My Reef Aquarium?
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/rhf/index.htm



http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/rhf/images/Figure_3.jpg

[20 20]

That picture is how it starts out, but then it 'coagulates' into a whole lot of little clumps, before disipating. Is that normal also?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What happens depends a bit on how fast it gets mixed in. Try adding it to a high flow area where it can disperse before settling out.

[20 20]

Thanks, I'll try that, and let you know what happens.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

:thumbsup:

Good luck. :)

[Mike O'Brien]

I've recently experienced the same thing. I just tossed the gallon and made a new one. I dose in front of a 2250 gph tunze, normally the cloud dissapated, but this stuff would coagulate like you said. I've made a few gallon's with washing soda that do the same thing. Dilluting it stop's this from happening.

[20 20]

Added it to a 'higher flow' area, same result, the milky cloud, and then the 'coagulation'. It dissipated a bit quicker than the first time, however. No ill effects that I can tell. Waited 10 minutes to add the CA. I'll check again tonight.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You may try diluting the two part a bit more with RO/DI just before adding so it is not so concentrated at the point of addition.

[20 20]

I'm currently manually adding the 'stuff', but I've got an Aqua Medic Reefdoser Twin to do the dosing. I'm going to be setting it up to dose into the sump, maybe once every hour, or maybe every half-hour. Is there any issue with using the additives in the current concentration if I do it this way? I'd rather keep the higher concentration, as it's a bit less work, less filling/switching of containers, etc. One issue I'm concerned about is adding the alk and CA suppliments at the same time into the sump with the pump, even though it will be small amounts. Currently I'm dosing 250 ML of the suppliments each day, that works out to about 5.2 ml each half hour. Will that cause any issues with calcium precipitate? Maybe if I put the hoses for the alk and ca at opposite ends of the sump? Any issues adding into the skimmer section of the sump?

Lots of questions, but I need answers!:p

[rick s]

When I added mine manually, some of it "clumped" also. As Randy said, it redisolved for me.


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8749046#post8749046 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 20 20
One issue I'm concerned about is adding the alk and CA suppliments at the same time into the sump with the pump, even though it will be small amounts. Currently I'm dosing 250 ML of the suppliments each day, that works out to about 5.2 ml each half hour.
Lots of questions, but I need answers!:p

I now use my doser. Instead of putting both doser outputs in the sump, I have the calcium dumping into the sump, and the alkalinity part dumping into the display tank, on the opposite side from where the main pump water enters. I also use kalk so I only dose 10ml/hour for 2 hours at night. I've done it that way for the past month and it seems to be working very well. No precipitation issues at all.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Is there any issue with using the additives in the current concentration if I do it this way?

That should be fine. Most folks dose full strength additives without a problem, and the smaller the amount added at once, the smaller the chances of problematic calcium carbonate precipitation on pumps, etc.

[surfjeepzx]

I'm using the 2 part with the baked method very successfully. I noticed the first time I mixed the baking soda it solidified in the jug. I let it sit for a day and when I checked it the next day it had dissolved completely. I pour the mix into a used pancake syrup squeeze bottle and then squirt that in front of my return pump in the sump.
the mix turns milky white when it hits the water in the sump and you can see it continue milky white through the clear nylon tubing on its way up, but when it hits the tank it's invisible, no fogging in the water.

I also use the CA mix. I introduce that in the tank in front of the return nozzles so it gets dispersed quickly.

I use the 2 part in addition to my auto-top-off with Kalk. I like using the 2 part as it allows me to tweak (supplement) the levels when the Kalk starts to fall off on one end or the other.

Currently I'm using it solely without the Kalk mix as I'm slowly raising my Salinity level by using my top-off with nsw. A little factoid I'm finding is that in a 135 gallon tank with a 10 gallon sump, it's taking a 5 gallon bucket of nsw added to the auto-top-off bucket to raise the salinity .001

In your case:
Maybe let the mix set for a while ahead of your planned use and then shake it up again before using it. Like mentioned, add it to a high flow area.

[20 20]

Well, it's been mixed for a few days. Just added some more, to a high flow area, and have the same result, milky white cloud that coagulates into a ton of tiny particles, that fairly quickly desolve. The issue I'm having is a rather large dropping of the alk. I had this happen in my 29 gallon reef when I used baked baking soda, and it's happening in my new 125 also. I'm going to check again tomorrow, and if it's still dropping, I'm reverting back to the 'unbaked' baking soda recipe.

[rick s]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8754540#post8754540 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 20 20
Well, it's been mixed for a few days. Just added some more, to a high flow area, and have the same result, milky white cloud that coagulates into a ton of tiny particles, that fairly quickly desolve.
That is normal and not a problem.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8754540#post8754540 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 20 20
The issue I'm having is a rather large dropping of the alk. I had this happen in my 29 gallon reef when I used baked baking soda, and it's happening in my new 125 also. I'm going to check again tomorrow, and if it's still dropping, I'm reverting back to the 'unbaked' baking soda recipe.
Alk or pH?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

milky white cloud that coagulates into a ton of tiny particles, that fairly quickly desolve.

As I mentioned, that is normal for high ph additives to some extent at least. I would not worry about that magnesium hydroxide unless it seems to be settling on delicate organisms and irritating them.. :)


The issue I'm having is a rather large dropping of the alk.

I expect that means you need to add more additive. How much does it drop over what period of time?

[20 20]

It's the alk that's dropping. If using the cooked baking soda, I'm using 250 ml per day. I'll get the 'dropage rate' tonight and post it.

[Mike O'Brien]

Randy, do you think there is a big difference in the local ph using baked baking soda compared to washing soda. I just tried again, the baked baking soda just look's like smoke in the water while the washing soda looked more like fine snow.

This won't lead to precipitation ? The magnesium hydroxide just dissolves ?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No, there should not be a big difference between fully baked baking soda and washing soda, but if not fully baked, there may be. Were they equally concentrated?

Yes, magnesium hydroxide dissolves in seawater.

It's the alk that's dropping. If using the cooked baking soda, I'm using 250 ml per day. I'll get the 'dropage rate' tonight and post it.

That's normal. You may just need to add more each day.

[Mike O'Brien]

Yes, I used the same ammount of washing soda as I would baked baking soda. I had checked the calculator and they were both listed as the same. The washing soda was much easier to get into solution.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The washing soda may be more baked than what you made. It seems the baking may be harder than expected since a large tray may take quite a while to heat up.

It may also have a different particle size, impacting dissolution rates.

[Mike O'Brien]

I think so, It does seem to raise the ph more, and keep it higher for a longer period of time.

Thank's.

[20 20]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8760111#post8760111 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
It's the alk that's dropping. If using the cooked baking soda, I'm using 250 ml per day. I'll get the 'dropage rate' tonight and post it.

That's normal. You may just need to add more each day. [/B]

That's quite interesting, I would have thought 250 ML per day was a lot. If I add 500 ML per day of uncooked baking soda 'solution', I get a steady alk of about 10.5 dKH. With 250 ML of cooked baking soda solution (twice the strength, so half the ML I figure), the alk had daily drops, from 10.8 to 9.6 to 8.9 to 8.4. PH has risen slightly in that timeframe, from 8.11 to 8.22. If I wanted to use the cooked baking soda because I figured I'd have to spend half the time mixing it up compared to the uncooked recipe (again, with it being twice the strength), but if that's not the case, I may as well use the uncooked recipe, and get a steady alk.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Unless you see excessive precipitation of calcium carbonate on heaters, pumps, etc, I'd just go with the higher addition.

You might check the magnesium level to make sure it is not low, but Recipe 2 is quite dilute and even Recipe 1 is more dilute than most commercial two part additives, so it can take a lot of additive if demand is high.

[20 20]

'Higher addition' meaning larger amount of additive with recipe 2, the uncooked baking soda?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Meaning both parts equally, but yes. :)

[20 20]

Thanks, Randy, I'll be mixing up an uncooked batch today! :)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

:thumbsup:

Good luck. :)

[20 20]

Four days of dosing 500 ml of recipe 2 (the uncooked baking soda), and alk stays steady at 10.5 dKH and the CA stays steady at 420. So, that appears to be what I need to do. Thanks for the help, everyone! Now, if I could only get my reef doser to stop sucking air...

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

:thumbsup:

What's the problem with the doser?

[20 20]

Sucking air...

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=999314

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm not sure that I understand the problem. It is pumping out air along with the liquid, or it is not pumping liquid at all?

[20 20]

It won't 'self prime', I beleive because it's getting air into the tubing, probably where the tubing is connected to the pump. It raises the water to a certain level, and then won't pump it any higher. If I suck on the end of the output tube to get the water up to the pump, it will start pumping the liquid, but with a lot of air in it.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Huh. Does sound like a leak. :(

[20 20]

Well, it helps to hook up the airline correctly.:p Finally figured out I needed to take off what Aqua Medic calls the 'gland nut', slide it over the tubing, slide the tubing onto the pump (can go much further and tighter without that nut on), and then tighten the nut. Did that to both the input and output sides, and it worked much better. Still getting some bubbles on the output side, but a LOT less, and I should be able to get that straightened out.