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spongebobby
12/13/2006, 06:52 PM
I have a few SPS that are showing some brown slime at the tips of the branches. See pics below. I just ran a full test on tank and the results are :

ALK 8.0 dkh
Cal 415
Mag 1290
NO3 undetectable (salifert)
PO4 undetectable (ddeltec)
Temp 79-82.5
PH 7.9-8.14
salinity 1.024

I run a ecosystem type filtration system.Tank has been set up for 14 months. I have been toying with the idea of pulling the bioballs and replacing with LR rubble but unsure. Any ideas as to what the problem/problems might be? For flow I have 2 seio 1100 and 2 mjmodded 1200 and about 800gph through the returns.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v739/spongebobby/100_0056.jpg

paulhines
12/13/2006, 07:03 PM
I'm having the same problem on a few acroporas. I'd noticed a low of red slime on the undersides of my live rock a few weeks ago. Then a little of the blown slime started on the tips of some otherwise healthy corals. It's killed the tips of a small staghorn. I hope it stops there.

After considerable reading I decided phosphates where the most likely cause. I did two 15%water changes, started adding a teaspoonful of vodka to the tank every night (and a few ounces for me), and ordered a Phosban reactor and Phosban. I just got that set up 2 nights ago. Also I put my two Tunze 6000s on a 7095 multicontroller, allowing me to crank them up a bit without moving all the gravel.

The problem hasn't gotten any worse, but can't see any noticable improvement yet. I'm sure I will soon.

spongebobby
12/13/2006, 07:08 PM
I am currently running rowa in a reactor for PO4. I do have some bubble algea and few patches of bryopsis and some thick green algea growing where the siphon hole on a AGA dursohits on the overflows. I have about 4 colonies doing this and the rest look fine.

BLKTANG
12/13/2006, 07:11 PM
STN.


Please post all params.

paulhines
12/13/2006, 07:13 PM
Best to cut off the affected tips?

ScallopKing
12/13/2006, 07:19 PM
I've had similiar problem and deducted it was low alk. I would get the alk to 9-10 range. Potentially related (maybe only slightly in my case, not sure how much is in TM salt) is the borate concentration on the salt mix you have. Borate will cause alk to be lower but not noticeable on the tests or maybe just the alk is too low (maybe lower than the test is reading).

In my case, my ca reactor feed pump was stuck with air in the line and when my corals started show mesanterial filaments (sp?) the alk was 8.1. This was dropping over a course of two weeks I determined when I last calibrated the reactor ph meter.

Did you corals start first showing the mesanterial filaments (looked like long feeders) before the die off? And was there a pattern of corals that have these symptoms?

paulhines
12/13/2006, 07:35 PM
I do notice a few of what you describe on a blue tort. Other than that it looks fine.

My alk tests at 9+ using a Salifert kit.

spongebobby
12/13/2006, 07:50 PM
Mine didn't show the mesanterial filaments. Last night these two corals looked fine and today they have this on the tips. Looks like a brown fuzzy area on the tips. The other corals that this happened to, the area affected died but they still show polyp extension and growth but not on the dead areas. After awhile the affected areas turn like a yellow slimy area???

DaddyJax
12/13/2006, 08:13 PM
Might want to see if there is too much direct flow in this area. I have seen my acros do this when I have too much direct and constant flow.

onehundred20
12/13/2006, 08:39 PM
looks to me like alk burns with diatoms on it.

spongebobby
12/13/2006, 08:47 PM
I thought that also but my alk usually stays pretty consistent using the kalk reactor. Within 1-2 dkh fluctuation over the last month.Lowest I remember seeing it was 7 dkh and the highest was 9 dkh and that is usually after I replenish the kalk in the reactor.

soldier1911
12/13/2006, 10:09 PM
Probably a flow issue. What's your turnover rate?

King-Kong
12/13/2006, 10:22 PM
I had this happen to several corals while I was away during a vacation. A chips, and a digita.

When I returned from vacation I threw a polyfilter in, and the recession stopped, and the tips regrew. That was all that was changed, but who knows what caused it, or why it reversed.

Interested to see what others think.

murphreef
12/13/2006, 11:16 PM
i think alk as well as scallopking....

i had tips on many of my corals burn like that with diatoms on it as my alk was low due to using a salt higher in borate which in turn gave me low alk ... i kept my alk around 7-8dkh and tips did that alnd corals slowly died

after switchin salts and raising alk to 9-10dkh all has re grown and is doing much better

heres a pic of one of the corals that was affected in the begging now its all healed and growing fast

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j211/murph145/unhealthy1.jpg

stags and montis were most affected by this condition

paulhines
12/14/2006, 05:29 PM
Mine could very well be a flow issue. To much direct constant flow. I got the Multi controller this week, so it should improve.

Do I prune off the white tips now? Back to healthy tissue?

BridgetP
12/14/2006, 07:31 PM
So I must ask Murphreef, what salt were you using and what salt did you switch to?
I have noticed the menstrial filaments on a blue tort of mine and I keep my alk at 8.3Dkh and never have seen it change past 8.0.
-Thanks

BridgetP
12/14/2006, 07:31 PM
sorry double post

murphreef
12/14/2006, 07:41 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8753937#post8753937 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BridgetP
So I must ask Murphreef, what salt were you using and what salt did you switch to?
I have noticed the menstrial filaments on a blue tort of mine and I keep my alk at 8.3Dkh and never have seen it change past 8.0.
-Thanks

i was using Ocean Pure Pro by Via Aqua.... made in China has high Borate levels so if u keep ur alk near NSW like i did then my corals suffered from Low Alk burn at the tips and worked its way down....

since switching to Tropic Marin my system has stabalized very rapidly all sps that were affected mainly stag type corals and my montis have all since healed nicely and everything has picked up growth very fast as compared to before....

i now keep my Ca around 400 and my alk around 9-10 dkh which was impossible before using the otehr salt it wlways wanted to settle around 8dkh

the only think i noticed about TM it suffers from a lil low Calcium and Magnesium but the alk is at 9.6dkh when freshly mixed

it took my corals only about a month to recover ... i battled not knowing what the culprit was that was killing my sps slowly....

since switching i havent lost a single coral even wild ones and all have grown alot

BridgetP
12/14/2006, 07:56 PM
That is good to hear. congrats on finding out the problem(that is often the hardest part)I am using TM pro reef and I so far have been loving it. I just have noticed menstrial filaments on a blue tort. the coral looks great so i dont know if it is a bad thing or not.
-Thanks

spongebobby
12/14/2006, 08:13 PM
Well I raised my Alk up to 10dkh from 8.6 today. I hope that is what is wrong. I would roughly say that I have 6800 gph flow which is roughly 56x turnover. None of it on a "controller". Thought about getting a seio multi-controller and putting 2 seio 1100 on it.

It also seems that I have to clean the glass every couple days. I do feed my fish alot but was wondering if this is a indicator to what is wrong.

murphreef
12/14/2006, 08:55 PM
hmmm well at least u can see if the alk does anything

as far as cleaning glass goes i clean my glass every couple days too and i feed everyday so i dont think thats really an issue

ScallopKing
12/14/2006, 11:53 PM
Here's the start -

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/5914/img1383pz3.jpg

And now -

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/2325/img1412zp0.jpg

I'm so bummed. It's actually still doing it...not sure if this coral will survive this.

Affected my both tenius first. Most other corals were happy, except for a few that I knew something was amis with them.

Just to chime in, I have to wipe down mine every 4 days probably.

OoNickoC
12/15/2006, 01:47 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8755734#post8755734 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ScallopKing
Here's the start -

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/5914/img1383pz3.jpg

And now -

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/2325/img1412zp0.jpg

I'm so bummed. It's actually still doing it...not sure if this coral will survive this.

Affected my both tenius first. Most other corals were happy, except for a few that I knew something was amis with them.

Just to chime in, I have to wipe down mine every 4 days probably.

Have you noticed that the filaments were in the exact same location as the now brwonign areas...? What up current from the affected coral? They are also what appears to be the upper most portion of the colony...(tallest parts in the current). Looks like warfare to me.

doodie
12/15/2006, 07:15 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8746539#post8746539 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DaddyJax
Might want to see if there is too much direct flow in this area. I have seen my acros do this when I have too much direct and constant flow.

This sounds like exactly what the problem is. Make sure that your pumps do not force water directly at the colony and these problems with the tips will go away.

The Tunze pumps wreak havoc with acro tips when the flow is directly at them.

paulhines
12/15/2006, 07:33 AM
So... what should OoNickoC do with this colony? Should he cut off all the "brown" tips? dip in a coral treatment? anything else?

What is the prognosis?

spongebobby
12/15/2006, 10:10 AM
That is exactly what mine look like also. So it may be a flow issue????

doodie
12/15/2006, 10:36 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8756596#post8756596 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by paulhines
So... what should OoNickoC do with this colony? Should he cut off all the "brown" tips? dip in a coral treatment? anything else?

What is the prognosis?

Nothing. Leave the colony alone. Let the colony recover on it's own. If all parameters are ok there should be no problems.

The prognosis is good if you re-direct those pumps.

reefplayer
12/15/2006, 10:52 AM
Quite surprising that i thought i was the only one in my country who have this, later i found out that some of my friends too having this.

Then now here is the similar problem that you guys faced.

Found that the parameters are almost the same as spongebobby and the pictures posted look alike.

Having the same tips burned issued.

1. At first i thought i was the BLV (ushio) bulb having the effect. 14k 400W SE bulb. My friend too using the same brand and only 250W having the same problem. Even at reduced photo period of 5hrs, problem persists.

Maybe the UV of this bulb. So we changed it to Hamilton. the problem didnt go away.

2. Suspected the salt problem, we are using TP pro. Seceptical to change salt at this moment.

This problem persist. My experience is the monti and digi are the 1st to go and slowly RTN. Then the tips of some corals got burned and similar to the pictures shown here. Now Stylo too affected. But amazingly some acro is doing fine.

What is the reason? My tank of more than 2yrs. Could it be that we have used up all the trace elements in our water? Could it be the skimmer that has skimmed out all of them and even the good trace elements?

I am still trying to figure it out.

I have also posted here.
http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic52107-9-1.aspx?Highlight=reefplayer

reefplayer
12/15/2006, 11:01 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8754240#post8754240 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by spongebobby
Well I raised my Alk up to 10dkh from 8.6 today. I hope that is what is wrong. I would roughly say that I have 6800 gph flow which is roughly 56x turnover. None of it on a "controller". Thought about getting a seio multi-controller and putting 2 seio 1100 on it.

It also seems that I have to clean the glass every couple days. I do feed my fish alot but was wondering if this is a indicator to what is wrong.

I personnally dont think its the flow issue.

I have 5 tunzes running in my 350G tank and all these while seems fine until suddenly some corals tips got burned.
Suspected that my 14k 400W BLV bulbs are too old (appro 8-9mths) So i changed to a new ushio(BLV) bulbs 14k. Then the problem doesnt seems to go away.

If it was a flow issue, the whole branch or more will be washed away (RTN) rather than the tips.

reefplayer
12/15/2006, 11:04 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8754570#post8754570 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by murphreef
hmmm well at least u can see if the alk does anything

as far as cleaning glass goes i clean my glass every couple days too and i feed everyday so i dont think thats really an issue

alk is the last that i may suspect of causing this, 9-10 should look alright correct me if i am wrong?

My experience is that if it was alk issue, it doesnt start with the tip. normally from bottom up RTN and not burned with slim/diatoms.

reefplayer
12/15/2006, 11:07 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8755734#post8755734 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ScallopKing
Here's the start -

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/5914/img1383pz3.jpg

And now -

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/2325/img1412zp0.jpg

I'm so bummed. It's actually still doing it...not sure if this coral will survive this.

Affected my both tenius first. Most other corals were happy, except for a few that I knew something was amis with them.

Just to chime in, I have to wipe down mine every 4 days probably.

I am having the same problem on my desawi of 2 yrs.

doodie
12/15/2006, 11:26 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8758050#post8758050 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by reefplayer
I personnally dont think its the flow issue.

I have 5 tunzes running in my 350G tank and all these while seems fine until suddenly some corals tips got burned.
Suspected that my 14k 400W BLV bulbs are too old (appro 8-9mths) So i changed to a new ushio(BLV) bulbs 14k. Then the problem doesnt seems to go away.

If it was a flow issue, the whole branch or more will be washed away (RTN) rather than the tips.

OMG 5 tunze's LOL... thats some FLOW you have there. Have you tried turning a couple off and directing the other 3 away from your corals? If not, I would try this first before tinkering with anything else.

Doubt if it is your lights IMO as in nature the sun is way more powerful than your lights will ever be;)

hobogato
12/15/2006, 11:33 AM
i had a deepwater acro lose three tips because one of my return nozzles got bumped and moved and stayed that way overnight. i broke off two of them when they developed algae and left the third alone with the algae. two months later, the two tips i broke off have regrown about 1/2" longer now and the one i left alone with the algae is just now about to cover back over. not very scientific, but it was interesting none the less.

ScallopKing
12/15/2006, 02:45 PM
That coral pic I posted is a deep water tenius. My other tenius did the exact same thing. All tips have died off exactly where the filaments started showing. The next that happened was the tissue started peeling off those spots, leaving the bare skeleton which started to get algae'd.

I agree I don't think it's a flow issue, my tenius has been in the same spot for months with the flow exactly the same and it's been fine.

It just started out of the blue one day not too long ago. I can pinpoint to exactly when and that I was swishing my rock of debris/detritus that the filaments came out. At the same time my alk was probably 8.1 on a decline from 10.2. As I said other corals were not affected.

I increased my alk to 9.6 (last night check) and the pictured tenius still is doing it (although to a much lesser degree).

I saw an aquacultured that I have not showing the polyps as much during the filament extrusion and subsequent die-off of tissue. Increasing the alk now that aquacultured is happy again (polyps are out).

I have never had this problem before with alk at 8.1. But my systems is doing better now with a higher alk.

Now, I don't dose anything except CA, ALK and MG. Been doing this way for a while now.

reefplayer - I wonder what the root cause of this is. I think it's alk but if you're at 9-10 then that kinda eliminates that, also my tenius pictured still is doing it with higher alk. Maybe it just can't reverse the cycle that quickly...who knows. What's the common denominator here? I am using Tropic Marin salt not the Pro though....hmmm. I never used any other salt since starting the tank. I have a friend with the same problem (he posted on here - murphreef).

spongebobby
12/15/2006, 03:26 PM
See if our tanks have anything in common:

XM250 10k bulbs
Ecosystem sump w/ miracle mudd
Run carbon 24/7
Run rowaphos 24/7
Drip Kalk 24/7
Dose Pohl's CV (6 drops per day)

reefplayer
12/15/2006, 07:52 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8758248#post8758248 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by doodie
OMG 5 tunze's LOL... thats some FLOW you have there. Have you tried turning a couple off and directing the other 3 away from your corals? If not, I would try this first before tinkering with anything else.

Doubt if it is your lights IMO as in nature the sun is way more powerful than your lights will ever be;)

Yes 5 tunes ( 4 x 6200 & 1 x 6100). They have been sitting there for 1 yrs + and never been changed on the positions. No direct flow to corals.

reefplayer
12/15/2006, 08:07 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8759615#post8759615 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ScallopKing
That coral pic I posted is a deep water tenius. My other tenius did the exact same thing. All tips have died off exactly where the filaments started showing. The next that happened was the tissue started peeling off those spots, leaving the bare skeleton which started to get algae'd.

I agree I don't think it's a flow issue, my tenius has been in the same spot for months with the flow exactly the same and it's been fine.

It just started out of the blue one day not too long ago. I can pinpoint to exactly when and that I was swishing my rock of debris/detritus that the filaments came out. At the same time my alk was probably 8.1 on a decline from 10.2. As I said other corals were not affected.

I increased my alk to 9.6 (last night check) and the pictured tenius still is doing it (although to a much lesser degree).

I saw an aquacultured that I have not showing the polyps as much during the filament extrusion and subsequent die-off of tissue. Increasing the alk now that aquacultured is happy again (polyps are out).

I have never had this problem before with alk at 8.1. But my systems is doing better now with a higher alk.

Now, I don't dose anything except CA, ALK and MG. Been doing this way for a while now.

reefplayer - I wonder what the root cause of this is. I think it's alk but if you're at 9-10 then that kinda eliminates that, also my tenius pictured still is doing it with higher alk. Maybe it just can't reverse the cycle that quickly...who knows. What's the common denominator here? I am using Tropic Marin salt not the Pro though....hmmm. I never used any other salt since starting the tank. I have a friend with the same problem (he posted on here - murphreef).

Yes, i am wondering as my alk is 9-10, but at one time my Ca shot up to 480/500 which is high due to the fact that some of my sps is not growing. The funny thing is some are doing fine and growing and some having tips burned. Even those place below. Most being affected are the montis. Danae and cap. They are burned and with brown slime on the tissues. Then followed by digi. Slowly it affect some other acro and also stylo.

Find it hard to believe how this goes. It can go on forever having this problem.

reefplayer
12/15/2006, 08:18 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8759922#post8759922 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by spongebobby
See if our tanks have anything in common:

XM250 10k bulbs
Ecosystem sump w/ miracle mudd
Run carbon 24/7
Run rowaphos 24/7
Drip Kalk 24/7
Dose Pohl's CV (6 drops per day)

Here is mine,

BLV (Ushio) 400W - 3 nos (14k SE)
Deltec T5 - 8 nos 3ft
Run carbon 24/7 - 2 bags of 20 teaspoons
Run rowa 24/7 - 15 teaspoon in a FR
Use Kalk reactor for auto top up
Ca reactor - Rowa C++
Skimmer - BK 300Ext
TP pro salt
Added TP Mg to raise from 1250 to 1350 each time during water change of 5G every week.

Parameters
Water parameters no drastic change, kH = 9 – 10, Ca = 450, Mg = 1350, PO4 = 0.03, Salinity = 1.026, NO3 = appro 0, pH = 7.9 – 8.05

murphreef
12/15/2006, 08:40 PM
when my alk was the issue my caps and montis of all kinds bleached and died and my staghorn type corals were first to be affected with tips being burnt looking and recceding

try to keep ur alk around 9-10 like it is and that made my issue stop especially when i switched salts

from ocean pure pro to tropic marin

OoNickoC
12/15/2006, 09:26 PM
I know ive been somewhat dismissed...lol. As im not an sps poster...but if the affected region is in the most direct flow it leads to afew things....
chem burns from fluctuations....there are none repotedley.
Flow issues, either too high or low, obviously not.
light issues, whether a sudden change in the nm recieved ....like wiping a splash gaurd for the first time in months, or changing bulbs....also ruled out...
There are only a couple of other options, especially since youve obviously opted for the best (or near that) equiptment and probably have other control factors.

King-Kong
12/15/2006, 09:44 PM
The issues causing the recession probably are not the same. It's just a common sympton.

Again, mine occured during a time when I was away! Nothing could have possibly changed, cause I wasnt there to do it!

Either way, I waited it out and added a poly filter for good measure, and the tips quickly re-grew. Get your houses in order, and I think the tips should grow back without having to frag.

ScallopKing
12/16/2006, 12:59 PM
And mine -

Hamilton 3x250w 10k + 2x72" 160w VHO
ETSS800 Skimmer
Run carbon 24x7 2 bags chemi-pure
Run ca reactor 24x7 (fast drip)
TM (tropic marin) salt

Tested last night -

ALK 9.6
CA 420
MG 1200 (need to get MG supplement)

Just checked meters -

PH 7.99 (morning, no lights yet - may drip kalk again for +ph)
Salinity 1.0245 (going to raise to 1.025 slowly)

Reefplayer - TP pro? Is that tropic marin pro?

spongebobby - What salt are you using again?

I did a small water change yesterday with more corals reacting the same way. Never had this problem before.

Serioussnaps
12/16/2006, 03:07 PM
dinos anyone?

spongebobby
12/16/2006, 09:06 PM
I am using Reef Crystals. I don't have any Dinos. Went to a LFS today that I buy alot of sps from and he told me that it happens and to just break the affected area off. I still want to find out what is causing it though.

Mike de Leon
12/23/2006, 07:41 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8758097#post8758097 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by reefplayer
I am having the same problem on my desawi of 2 yrs.

I have the exact same coral that has the tentacles (whatever you call it) come out every so often. But has always done well. I have had some STN in some of my millis and the one observation I had was when the temperature fluctuates STN occurs. One of my largest millis seem so sensitive that it would thrive really well in one spot. As soon as I move it or change anything in the tank in terms of flow, salt, temp, and all levels it stops growing and STN starts in bottom. Then when everything's been stable for a couple of weeks it starts recovering.
Flow rate changes as you change aquascape or positioning of powerheads.
I find that if the tank is left alone and you keep your water params stable SPS will thrive. Sudden changes even when trying to remove PO I think is detrimental. Everything should be done slowly.
JMO