Why can't LFS get charged with animal cruelty?

[dcombs44]

We've all seen the LFS that have no knowledge about the fish and corals that they sell. They neglect them by not having any knowledge about them. Our coral reefs are the most fragile environments in the world, and some people flat out mistreat the animals that come from them. If a person mistreats a dog he/she can go to jail, so why not for mistreating something that is much more rare than a dog. Don't get me wrong, I love dogs, but........

[mr pink floyd]

i agree, ive seen a 7+ inch achilles tang in a tank that was probably 12x12", probably less, the poor thing could barely turn, a few days later it was dead behind a piece of rock

the LFS is a good one too, one of the best in state, i dont think its they dont care, its they cant care for them right...

[PLNelson]

I recently moved to Minneapolis, and have been looking around at all the LFS's. There are a couple that it actually hurt me to look at the fish, because they were so poorly maintained. I don't think I saw a single happy and energetic fish in one of them. On the other side though, there si two of the store that are really great.

[bureau13]

You don't want PETA going to war with your local LFS, no matter how bad you think they are....trust me on this. I'm pretty sure their policy is anti-home aquarium anyway (I saw one of their flyers once that had some comment about leaving fish in the ocean where they belong) so I don't see them making a big distinction between a good LFS and a bad one, or even your home system. Now, I know you did not specify PETA, but if you're going to start talking charges or lawsuits, etc...that's the kind of group that would do it.

jds

[synthesis]

Alot of the time its not the LFS fault that a large fish is in a small tank. These LFS dont control the size of fish they are sent in a delivery. Technically an 8" Achilles tang should have never left the ocean IMO.

All a LFS can do is hope someone grabs it really quickly. Yes their are terrible LFS out their, but im talking the general ones that do their best sometimes have their hands tied.

And really, im sure we have alll killed something due to our carelessness or mistake. That fish was better left in the ocean then with us in that case.

[STsONpERs]

LFS do pick the sizes of the fish to a certain extent.

small medium or large, they generally do have a choice on the matter, some just dont have the right equipment to deal with the array of sizes and fish that customers desire.

just my 2cents

[raycityboy1]

ive seen some some bad looking stores and horrible loking fish. I hate it when they can't care for coral but would rather let it die than come off on the price a little and let an expert nurse it back to health.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8760030#post8760030 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by synthesis
Alot of the time its not the LFS fault that a large fish is in a small tank. These LFS dont control the size of fish they are sent in a delivery. Technically an 8" Achilles tang should have never left the ocean IMO.

All a LFS can do is hope someone grabs it really quickly. Yes their are terrible LFS out their, but im talking the general ones that do their best sometimes have their hands tied.

And really, im sure we have alll killed something due to our carelessness or mistake. That fish was better left in the ocean then with us in that case.

I disagree. You shouldnt be ordering any Arcanthurus unless you have 6-8ft holding tanks.

The issue is that a lot of stores have wholesalers "Push" things on them. IE you order 20 fish. They dont have 4 of them, so they stick 4 random fish in the order, to say they "filled it". You may get a bunch of fish you're not equipped to deal with.

Then again, as long as people keep buying fish that are gonna get 3 feet long, the stores will keep ordering them.


dcombs44
"Our coral reefs are the most fragile environments in the world"

I think thats part of the problem. Dogs/Cats/Etc are pretty hardy. Your dog isnt going to just die unless you do something pretyt bad to it. People think fish just die for no reason, and that they have really short life spans. An LFS having dead fish isnt a big deal because fish "just die"

[tgrove]

personally I think the LFS owners should be held more responsible for their actions. One local store here in South FL, the owner has been caught and arrested sereval times for poaching the local reefs. And yet he was slapped with a small fine and still allowed to operate.
This person should be in jail

[midgetwaiter]

Here's something to consider, what if the store didn't order the tang you are talking about?

I know this may not be likely with an Achilies tang but people do just show up and give stuff to stores all the time. There was a thread about the store I work in on a local board and one of the comments was "They had this really big regal tang in a 2 foot tank all covered in ich and looking like it was going to die". Technically true but what it didn't say is that somebody showed up and gave us the big tang already covered in ich and that was the only place we had where it could be isolated at the time. Kind of changes the story doesn't it.

Sometimes they don't even ask. I've found turtles on the deck in front of the store, a 3ft ID shark in a garbage bag by the till, all sorts of stuff.

[Creason228]

I am with Midget,

I worked at a LFS in California and everyday someone would come to the store to give fish to us. A lot of times the fish were in terrible shape and had almost no chance to live. This left many at the store to ponder what to do with them. Should we put them in a large tank with other healthy fish or should we find a smaller tank and let them be isolated?

The other problem is that many people don't care about the health of the fish. They only care about if it looks good in their aquarium. I don't know how many times I had to tell people you can't put a large blue tang in a 20 gallon aquarium. Another thing is, I know I didn't ask the customers twenty questions about tank size, water quailty, and etc. Sometimes workers at LFS's are over loaded with work. I have had lines of customers asking about fish, wanting to take fish, and then to top it off trying to do a twenty percent water change on a display tank.

I would assume that if you post and are familiar with reefcentral you know a great deal more about this hobby then the average person who looks at the aqarium as a decoration.

I won't deney that a large achillies tank should not be put in a tiny aquarium but a lot of the times LFS's hands are tied.

Another thing to ask, was the fish ordered by a customer? I know we got large fish in all the time that would be sent out the same day when the customer came to pick them up. This is another thing to find out before you want to call PETA.

[Roland Jacques]

Really, there is a lot to consider about being concerned with our Reefs. While the Reefs are relatively fragile. What your LFS does or can kill with their entire livestock budget in the grand skeem of thing it is nothing, deforstation, food fishing, polution... are way in front of our hobbys impact.

LFS are inspected and can be inspected any time by DOA or who every does it in your state if you call them. id rather you let the market put the hurt on them by not buying from them.

If you are really concerned about our reefs, your main concern as a reefer should be focus on how YOUR own fish where collected. IMO that is 100 times more critical and important than how you see them in a store small tanks.... Only buy from store that use good collectors... AMDA dealer to start with. Everyone wants to save a buck and fish... and few will pay 30% extra for "net caught fish. but you can look for a AMDA dealer here.


Don't get me wrong fish stores should be nice and care for fish .

PS. Dont go to a Asain fish market or any fish market that has live fish.

[dcombs44]

Great posts everyone. I thought this may be a good topic for discussion. My main focus is the stores that you can continuously go in and see sick fish in outdated inappropriate systems (same for coral), and the ones that will flat out lie to make a buck. Luckily in my area most of these stores are going out of business, simply because people have figured them out. Like someone posted before, hurt them by not buying from them. To those of you LFS out there that really do your best to provide the best care for your animals, and the best information to your customers, I salute you. I know every store will have sick fish and coral now and again, and that's understandable, but most of us can tell a rat when we see one.

[2crazyreefers]

Our local fishstore cares about their livestock. The coral selection is great with very clean tanks, Although they dont always have a great selection of fish because as they say they just do not have the tank space and do not want to crowd tanks for the fish sake. I respect and appreciate this. They will order any fish I want within a week.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8760620#post8760620 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by midgetwaiter

Sometimes they don't even ask. I've found turtles on the deck in front of the store, a 3ft ID shark in a garbage bag by the till, all sorts of stuff.

If stores weren't selling fish like ID Sharks that get to 7 feet, we wouldnt have this problem.


It seems like even the best stores are selling ID shards, red tail cats, arowannas, etc.

[fishes2889]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8760247#post8760247 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
I disagree. You shouldnt be ordering any Arcanthurus unless you have 6-8ft holding tanks.


How would that be even possible??

Steve

[ronjeremy]

who could you call if you did want to report a store??? people can take up for these stores, but there is one here that has fish with any disease or fungus that you can think of.. they have more exotic fish there. they do nothing to treat them ..i bought 2 very sick hippo's from there.. i showed the owner and told him they were almost positively going to die.. they were in bad shape..he wouldn't come off the price at all.. i bought them and they died a day later..i check in from time to time..every visit is the same.. this guy needs to be shut down or be more responsible.. i would like to know who i could call!!

[CapitalO]

There are 1 or 2 'bad' LFS in my area that are full of misinformation and poor practices. I do my part by finding mislabeled corals that are occasionally under priced for what they really are. Its not common, but every once in a while you can get a really great deal. I rescued a dying acan lord colony with super bright red and purple coloration for $20. It was in a disgusting looking tank with really dim lighting, I think it was a single normal output fluorescent... Amazingly it was labeled as 'bullseye mushroom rock'. Thats my way of getting some revenge for their neglect; im just trying to do my part :D

[goda]

ok id hate to say it but WTH i work at an lfs and here is the biggest problom

WE DONT HAVE ROOM and cant afford bigger tanks or to properly care for them WHY ??? because you are all looking for good deals and have moved bussiness to places like marine depot

most lfs do this.. get alot of fish in and try to sell them asap and prey they do ok.

i personaly move fish to larger tanks asap ( worst that i ever saw is a 3 inch tang in a 6 inch by 6 inch cube... i moved him to a 125 reef tank as soon as i had the chance ) while i would love to have large tanks for every fish.. it is impossiable show a lil support and possibly we could afford to get larger tanks . or not need to have as big of selection

i know im gonna get flamef for that but were doing the best we can

[Fuegofish777]

I see your point goda, i was kind of thinking the same thing. I know a couple of lfs owners and buisiness is definitely down with how bargain hungry some hobbiests are. even if LFS tanks were maintained as well as our home tanks, they wouldnt be able to afford it. think about it, most of us cant afford a big 125g tank...let alone several and countless smaller tanks. Im not saying things are right how they are now, just kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. JMO

[IPowderBlueTang]

I just don't shop at LFS that don't care about their fish or overcharge for their fish and dry goods! If no one buys from them they eventually will go out of business or have change their business practice!

[chucksta1]

The orginal thread starter was about "..why aren't they charged"... They aren't "charged" for one of two reasons. Either the applicalbe laws don't exist, or if they do, they aren't enforced. It would seem that enforcement would be problematic, to say the least. Education or activism would be more effective.

How about the following:

1) "Reef Central" certification; LFS puts up a sign that says "we recomend the "new to the hobby" forum before making any purchases. "Reef Central" sells menbership cards and uses the money to rent billboards that say "Visit us before you buy" the membership gives you ten points off at the LFS, and the LFS is listed under "local vendors"

2) Tang Police. Involve the members of the local fish club to lobby the local politicians to use local resorces already at their disposal. If there is an animal welfare officer currently visiting pet stores, could they not also visit "fish only" stores?

3) Rat them out. Use the video on your camera and film the problem. E-mail it to your local, repeat LOCAL news room or community paper. If one person does it, they'll think you're crazy. If two of you do it, they'll think ??? If more than 3 of you do it, they'll think it's a movement and now it's news.

Remember to hum "Alice's Resturant" while making the video.

[goda]

"overcharge for their fish and dry goods!" i really shouldent say this.. but i know the prices we pay for dry goods and you are not being over charged online just has less cost and more bulk :(


and im getting sick of people who come in and look at stuff and ask questions then go buy online ( they love the customer service but hate teh prices) the places this hobby is moving to is scary.

anyways back to the tangs

most lfs in my area have 5 tangs in about 100 gallon cubes ( the lfs im at has them in a decent size for the most part) now big als on the other hand... they cram like 7 tangs into this 55 gallon or so tank along with other fish.. but they seem to do ok because of high turn over i guess ( or alot of people working to pull dead ones before you knotice)


the lfs i work at hand picks fish from the whole saler.. we dont ship them in and trust me.. any lfs is an upgrade from teh wholesalers tanks

[goda]

"My main focus is the stores that you can continuously go in and see sick fish in outdated inappropriate systems (same for coral), and the ones that will flat out lie to make a buck. Luckily in my area most of these stores are going out of business, simply because people have figured them out."

here lies the poblom again ... as for the sickand lieing part.. itsundersandable the fish go throu alot of stress... while they should be pulled out asap as to not get otehr fish sick. all stores have this happen regardless... but as for the lieing to make a buck... it takes a special person to work at an lfs... mos tof the people at lfs come from the bussiness side and have 0 personal experiance. id make more money flipping burgers only reason i ( and a few rare others) work at the lfs is we LOVE fish a lil to much

[Octoberfest]

One of my local fish stores (three store chain) is terrible. They will tell people that they can pretty much have anything in their tanks. I go in there every now and again to buy food and just look around. They have a tank with clams and anenomies in tanks with only basic cheap lighting, not even VHO's nevermind T-5's or MH's. They had an 8 gallon Nano setup with a medium blue regal tang, pulsing Xena, GSP's and a Maxima clam. Someone was asking about it and I mentioned that the blue regal tang shouldn't be in there and the manager said I was wrong, it would be fine, "see how much swimming it can do in there" and that it would only get as large as the tank would let it.

There fish always have ich and they just keep putting new fish in the tank.

Now, on the flip side, I have one of the best LFS near me that I've ever dealt with. Before this guy will sell you a fish he asks about your tank. He won't sell you, as in will not let it go out of his store, if he thinks your tank is not ready for it. To me that is great, and the fact that his prices are about 50% cheaper than the other ones makes him even that much better.

[Kiel'thalin]

I wouldn't be calling this type of behavior exibited by LFS's as Cruelty. They might not have enough knowledge or experience in the business to have the correct setups for each and every fish they can order. But, if it gets to a point where you go into your LFS and see the owner taking fish out of the tank and chopping there heads off with a cleaver, that will probably raise up some issues. I for one do not believe any LFS owner wants to purposely kill a fish, that is money out of there pocket. There are too many un-known factors to consider when a fish dies at a LFS. Hopefully the store can understand what is happening when a fish dies and try to correct any issues that happen on there end.

[GreenBay1]

I think it is great that everyone has an opinion on this issue. However; I think that the use of online dealer names and stores should not be used in your gripes about a LFS or online dealer. It is not right to single a store out in this thread.

[WE DONT HAVE ROOM and cant afford bigger tanks or to properly care for them WHY ??? because you are all looking for good deals and have moved bussiness to places like marine depot]

[most lfs in my area have 5 tangs in about 100 gallon cubes ( the lfs im at has them in a decent size for the most part) now big als on the other hand... they cram like 7 tangs into this 55 gallon or so tank along with other fish.. but they seem to do ok because of high turn over i guess ( or alot of people working to pull dead ones before you knotice)]

It's just not appropriate to do this.

[goda]

" think it is great that everyone has an opinion on this issue. However; I think that the use of online dealer names and stores should not be used in your gripes about a LFS or online dealer. It is not right to single a store out in this thread.

[WE DONT HAVE ROOM and cant afford bigger tanks or to properly care for them WHY ??? because you are all looking for good deals and have moved bussiness to places like marine depot]

[most lfs in my area have 5 tangs in about 100 gallon cubes ( the lfs im at has them in a decent size for the most part) now big als on the other hand... they cram like 7 tangs into this 55 gallon or so tank along with other fish.. but they seem to do ok because of high turn over i guess ( or alot of people working to pull dead ones before you knotice)]

It's just not appropriate to do this."

yes but do you have an opinion on the subject

i use names all the time regardless of good or bad. so i see no problom ( md does have some of the best prices and thats why i used them)

[nanoreefboy]

The sad part is if you think the holding conditions are bad at a LFS then you probably have never been to a wholesaler when they are fully stocked. The ironic part is people in the industry usually love when the wholesaler is stocked because those fish or that coral you wanted in just the right size is probably sitting at the wholesaler waiting for your LFS to send in the fax or call in the order.
I have worked for LFS before and can say that many times, it is the customer who asked for the fish in that "SHOW" size but then dont want to pay for it when it comes in. So therefore the store sits on it and hopes someone will help them out. I can say that I have refused to bring in certain fish for people in the past knowing that there was no way they could care for the animal in their size tank, only to have them come to me a week later asking how to treat their tank because they bought it from somewhere else.
It takes work from both sides. Find a reputable LFS to work with. All that I would say is make sure to take care of them so they take care of you. I realize many things are cheaper online but at least give the good LFS something for being there and taking care of you.

Just a side note, if you ever know of a LFS store dealing in some fish or other animals illegal to be kept as pets. The fish and game will gladly go take care of them with a huge fine. But just know they dont send the fish back to somewhere legal, they kill them right there on the spot. I know because I was there...

[CapitalO]

Not having adequate resources to care for certain fish or animals is a very poor excuse for the mistreatment of livestock.
Having a successful business is all about making investments. In this case, buying the proper equipment to house any fish relative to the aquarium hobby. Trying to justify improper care for lack of business is truly a cop out -having the appropriate resources is what produces a successful business.
It seems to me that most LFS simply have a poor business plan, they dont seem to make a large enough investment to really produce a thriving busines. Theres a LFS in my area where I do the vast majority of my shopping, they have 4 or 5 300+ gallon tanks designated for reef or fish only. This produces healthy livestock, which I like to see, therefore they get my business... simple as that.

[bureau13]

I'm confused about this. They have 300+ gallon tanks that they keep their fish for sale in? How on earth do they get them out when somebody buys one?

If its just a display on the other hand, and the for-sale stock is in the typical smaller tanks, I don't see how that's somehow different than anyone else really.

jds

[CapitalO]

The large fish only tanks dont have a lot of hiding places in them, no LR. They just chase them into a clear plastic container to get them out, Ive never seen them net anything. They have an acrylic system for the smaller fish.

[goda]

ok well maybe im just speaking for the one i work at where we relize the probloms and dream of fixing the probloms and getting bigger tanks. ( its under new ownership and the new owner actualy cares where as the old one was a bussiness person and purly that) but do you really belive that say liveaquaria has a better sucsess rate? i doubt it is much better. the fish go throu a lot of stress and some dont make it... you usualy see these signs as illness or death.. but the problom originates from the collectors to teh point when there in our tanks. it isnt purly with thelfs.

alot of tiems i get a fish in and i can tell it isnt going ot last long just by lookig at it in the bag.

then with otherfish its live and learn. we used to have horriable succsess with some fish ( every one died that stayed in our tanks) but have found ways to fix the probloms and now rarly loose any

a dead fish is good news for noone.. its money out of pocket and if the lfs you speak of are truly this bad .. dont bother reporting them as they will likely go out of bussiness soon any ways

now this list of illigal to own fish where can i ge thtat list? ( im in fl btw)

[Tokey]

I feel sorry for the LFS they don't stand much of a chance compared to the online stores. I never buy any big dollar items from my LFS they just can't come close to the prices that I pay online.Live stock and small item dry goods are all I use them for.

[nick18tjetta]

To answer the original question...

Nobody cares becuase fish aren't furry.

[scaryperson27]

^ditto

I don't go to any LFS that should be "charged" with animal cruelty.

[dcombs44]

I think some of you have missed my point by just a bit. Many of the issues that goda has mentioned are, to a point, understandable. I'm talking about instances like this. One LFS in my area sells RO water, she uses tap water in her tanks in the store, not because she thinks it's better, but because she thinks it's cheaper. Don't ask me why, but I'm just saying people with that much lack up education have no business selling these animals. I'm talking about the stores that will sell a sick fish to someone without mentioning a word. Like I said earlier, to the stores out there that are really making an effort, good for you and thank you. I personally do probably 75-80% of my business through an LFS. They know their stuff pretty well, and they are very helpful in helping me get what I need. There are just some stores that have no business being in business. I really do salute those stores that are making an honest effort, but like mentioned earlier, if you're going to go into business, you've got to make the initial investment to make you successful in the long run. We all realize that it's an expensive investment, but if you can't afford to house something, don't order it. Stay within your means until you can afford to do bigger and better things. I think, from a business standpoint, it will pay off in the long run. I know that my LFS won't neccessarily keep outrageous things, but if someone wants something, they'll order it. If they don't know that the person is good for the money, they'll make them pay up front. Most people won't leave a fish in a store if it's paid for. If they happen to get a fish in for someone that is sick, they'll order another.