Close loop system help

[djpj001]

I was wondering if it is possible to insert a pump in the over flow with a close loop system returning water to the main tank. I'm doing to this to increase water flow without using powerheads. I know most people do this with a dry pump outside the tank. I don't have a dry pump, just a wet one which I would like to make use of. Below is a picture of what I want but with the pump inside the overflow. Any suggestions??


http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/586/135113calfo1.jpg

picture was copied from http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...2003/short.htm

[staticx]

Nope
Not a good idea the pump will drain your overflow box and you will end up will very little water if any going to your sump

[jasalmanza]

seems like a lot of work in a really tight place, I may have to agree with X on this one. what type of pump are you planning on using? how big is your overflow?

[kgross]

The biggest problem with this setup is that if something causes your return pump to quite you risk burning up your closed loop pump also since the overflow can run dry.

Kim

[Bergovoy]

Hello, I dont think youcan mix the two systems.

You can use a U-Tube configuration to hang over the top of the tank intot he maid display to draw your water into the pump then distribute to your return heads.

you may want to look at Oceansmotions.com as they have a device to switch the current to different outlets to create a more natural current, rather then a constant flow in one direction.

You may need to invest into a larger pump thoug.

I am going to be using a sequence dart that goes to the oceans motions 4-way.

I have two 1-1/2" holes drilled into the back of my tank on each side of my center overflow, for hte suction / inlets, then I have 4 1" holes drilled intot eh back glass about 6" offset from the outermost corners for the returns.

The Dart pump move 3600 gph at zero head pressure, so there will be a TON of water moving around my 180 gallon tank.

I will be posting pictures soon, as I am still setting up.

Thanks,

Bill

[Bergovoy]

Hello, I dont think youcan mix the two systems.

You can use a U-Tube configuration to hang over the top of the tank intot he maid display to draw your water into the pump then distribute to your return heads.

you may want to look at Oceansmotions.com as they have a device to switch the current to different outlets to create a more natural current, rather then a constant flow in one direction.

You may need to invest into a larger pump thoug.

I am going to be using a sequence dart that goes to the oceans motions 4-way.

I have two 1-1/2" holes drilled into the back of my tank on each side of my center overflow, for hte suction / inlets, then I have 4 1" holes drilled intot eh back glass about 6" offset from the outermost corners for the returns.

The Dart pump move 3600 gph at zero head pressure, so there will be a TON of water moving around my 180 gallon tank.

I will be posting pictures soon, as I am still setting up.

Thanks,

Bill

[staticx]

you could use a small rubbermade container and have water drain from your tank into it and the put your pump in there maybe

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8769754#post8769754 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by staticx
Nope
Not a good idea the pump will drain your overflow box and you will end up will very little water if any going to your sump

That is not correct, though at first it may appear to be logical. If you work the whole scenario out you will find that the setup will behave like any other closed loop.

If you have 1000 GPH return pump and you add a 1000 gph closed loop intake into the overlow you will be pushing 2000 through the tank and into the overflow. The loop will only consume what it pushed over the spillway, and the rest will go to the sump like normal.

This will only work if you have a SINGLE overflow box. If you have TWO or MORE boxes, then nothing will ever balance and the boxes will alternate from running to high to running to low.

The setup will work just fine.

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8777544#post8777544 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kgross
The biggest problem with this setup is that if something causes your return pump to quite you risk burning up your closed loop pump also since the overflow can run dry.

Kim

That depends on the type of overflow. If it is deep enough to fully submerge the intakes but NOT drain into the standpipe, then the setup will work just fine with or without the return pump. But yes kim... in many cases when the return pump is not running, the closed loop pump will run dry.

[kgross]

Bean,
All it would take to drain the overflow box is a slight leak on the standpipe, which since most people do not glue them in they normally do leak slowly, the overflow will drain.

Or if the water coming over the top of the overflow reaches the standpipe if the standpipe is open on top rather than a durso or stockman, some water can still drain down the standpipe draining the overflow.

There is just to large of a chance of running the closed loop pump dry, I would not suggest doing it. It is possible, but the risks are very high in doing this.

Kim

[BeanAnimal]

I run them in my overflow :)

I actually let them "run dry" when I feed every day. One feeds the above tank refuge and the other feeds the skimmer. Because they both have head above them, they never really run dry and instead just hold the water in the column above them at bay.

The ideal setup for CLs like this would be an overflow box where the intake of the durso or whatever is above the intake of the loop pump. Like you said, the standpipes can not leak though.

Bean

[staticx]

I would have thought that the closed loop pump would suck most of the water from the overflow box and would be left with just a trickle going down to the sump. But I guess if your overflow box can handle enough water then like bean pointed out it could be done. hmmm Now its got me thinking

[BeanAnimal]

It is very simple. The return pump has a static amount of flow. The closed loop draws water out of the box but returns it to the tank where it drains right back into the box. It is no differnet than a closed loop with its intake and return in the tank.

Here lets make it easier.... put a pump in the overlow box without any hoses attached to it. What changes? Nothing the water in the overlfow box just swirls around more because of the pump. Now put a dishcarge hose on the pump and direct the water back onto the tank. Where does it go? The tank can not get any deeper, as the water is already higher than the overflow lip.

Make sense now?

[Bergovoy]

If this is true, then why didnt anyone tell me this when I was talking about not having an inlet drain drillied in the back of my tank for my closed loop?

I thought about using the drain line in the over flow box as my closed loop inlet, and using one of the two 1" return lines as the new sump drain, granted I would have a slower and smaller sump flow but that might have worked?

Or, I could have installed a manifold in the 1-12" and a gate valve to divert and balance the water to both the sump and th closed loop.

Dang... Cost me seeveral hundred to redrill the tank...

But that is okay really, it is perfect now, no comprimises, which is what I wanted...

But I thought I asked Paul at Oceans motions about this and he said no to the inlet for the cl in the overflow...

But it absolutely makes sense, if you suck it out of the overflow and dump it right back into the tank, it will simply fill the overflow back up...

[BeanAnimal]

You also increase the chance of bubbles being introduced and chopped into mini bubbles (everybody calls them micro bubbles... but you could not see micro bubbles!)

I use them to feed by skimmer and fuge that both overflow back into the tank. Bubbles are not a concern in that case.

Bean

[Fishbulb2]

Definitely use the reef calculator to make sure your overflow box can handle the extra flow before doing this. It definitely works (i've done several variations on it) but you must have an overflow that can handle. Otherwise, you will have problems.

Bergovoy,
I'm sure paul at oceansmotions said no to this also because you may have been pushing the limits of that overflow box. Also, you can introduce mini-bubbles (can't believe i'm using this) like bean pointed out. It can also be a pain to have this much clutter in your overflow box. Last, it is a lot less effiecient for your skimmer and filtration. We skim surface water for our overflows because this is typically were most of the hydrophobic gunk settles out. Ideally we want all of this water to go to the sump and skimmer to be filtered rather than just driving it right back out into the tank and diluting it. The difference is that while both systems will process the same amount of water per hour, having a closed loop intake in your overflow box just keeps diluting the surface scum right back into your tank. Your set up, as is, is much better. Don't feel bad about it.
FB

[BeanAnimal]

fishbulb... the calculator will be of no use it only estimates the flow rate of the plumbing. This has nothing to do with that plumbing. The "linear" portion of the calculator simply calculates the linear length of overflow that would provide acceptable surface skimming (something that 99% of the overflows out there already do not provide).

Now if we are talking about a u-tube type of overflow with the cl pump on the outby side, then of course the u-tube must handle the extra flow and all bets are off.

As a side note, I feed my skimmer from the overflow because of the protien rich water. The skimmer is to tall to be gravity fed :)

[Bergovoy]

FB, Actually, Paul was ll for reducing the flow to the sump and filtration. He called it a return to old school... (not quite sure what he meant, as I am not really young, but young to reefing.)

He indicated that people tend to push teh limits of the sump just so they can get as much water flow for thier reef. With thte OM, there is not need to get any water circulation reqs out of the sump, so he suggested I convert thedrain to an inlet for his OM 4way. Then the only flow to the sump and filtration would be coming froma 1" drain, (I had two 1" bulkheads in the overflow, along witht a 1-1/2" bulkehad for the original drain).

If I converted the 1-1/2" drain to a an inlet for the OM 4way, he wanted me to poke it throught the overflow wall into the tank.

But he really did not say why I couldnt keep the inlet from drawing water from the overflow, (or I cant remember).

I just thought it would be because the overflow would not be able to keep up with the DART I guess we would have to calc the water flow throught the teeth, but jsut looking at it, it seems more area then an 1-1/2" pipe.

One of hte things I am looking forward to in this tank, is the lack of bubbles. I have that with my 55 gallon now, but it is cheesy set up with a HOB skimmer that does not work well, and for as much gunk as it skims, I still see 'particulate' or miicro bubbles, (I thinkit the later.)
Anyways, I gotta get back to plumbing.I am really having a problem with setting up the DART. I am trying to sset it up off the deck on the inside of the cabinet, and I have this hair-brained idea to suspend it from all thread that is hanging from or suspended by springs for isolation

The first problem I had was that the springs I got were bottoming out.

The second problem is the platform was hanging a bit too high forme to get the pluimbing and the OM 4 way to fit, so I had to go out and buy new all thread to get it to hang down about 3-4 more iinches, (or about 2-3 inches off the deck).

I am wondering about my isolation concept though as I donot have any isolation guilt into the piping.

I will need to go to HOSE-MAN to get a coule of feet of soft hose to isolate the2" inlet and 1-1/2" return pvc

Any ideas? (other then start a new thread and not hijack this one)??

Bill

[BeanAnimal]

I put my pumps on a platform with rubber feet. The rubber feet are soft rubber "bottle corks" from the hardware store. I use a forestner bit and recess them slightly into the platform and the base that it will sit on. I use length of spaflex at the pump inlet and outlet. It works very well.

[Bergovoy]

Oh, duh, I could use spa flex too. Damnit, I jsut picked some up to plumb the overflow cause the holes did not line up with the bottom and overflow walls.

I guess I will go back to the dang store again...

How many trips to the store does it take to setup a 180 gallon tank?

I am up to 5 trips, but I had to buy the material for the stand too.

I will have one more trip for the stand's finish matiral, mae that two, (I will need stain and varnish)

I reckon it will take at least 3 more trips for plumbing parts

I built a small platform out of left over acrylic, and have the platform hangin off the springs, and will have a latch type of screw system that will flip up and screw the pump down onto the platform.

It is typical of me to focus on the small details and lose or forget the main stuff.

Iwill get pics someday...

Bill
bill

[Fishbulb2]

I completely agree with what paul was saying about reducing the flow to the sump. I think more people should do this. We've had two people in our local reef forum complain about insuffient draining and it was because they were trying to get all of their tank circulation through the sumps return pump. This causes many more head aches with noise and bubbles and everything. I'm having a hard time picturing what they are now recommending. It sounds like they want you to go from a drain in the overflow box but have the intake inside the tank rather than in the box. If this is so, then I totally agree with them. Keep the intake out of the overflow box so that you don't just recirculate all of the water you have skimmed from the surface of the tank. It can take a very long time for some organic molecules to make their way to the surface and once they are skimmed into your overflow box, you do not want to just spit them right back out into the tank.
FB

[Fishbulb2]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8786854#post8786854 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Bergovoy


How many trips to the store does it take to setup a 180 gallon tank?



Well, think about how major of a project this actually is. Five trips isn't so bad. It's much better than rushing into it and then having to redo it later.
Good luck. Lookin foward to picks.
FB

[Bergovoy]

Yes,the suggestion was to put a 90 onto the 1-1/2" drain line riser tupe inside the overflow and drill a hole in the oferflow wall into the main tank.

Unfortunately that is all moot.

I ended up sending the tank back to the mfg to have them replace the back glass with one that had two extra holes in it. (the first tank had 4 holes in the back.)

The four holes were in the corners, and they were the returns for the Oceans motions four way system.

The new back glass cost me another $$310, (200 for the glasswork and $70 to rent a truck to get the tank back to the shop and the shop brought the tank back to me, so I tipped them $40)

So, now I have the tank back, the stand is 90%, (everything except the front facing and doors), and I am about 25% plumbed. And I will get further if I get off this forum for a bit...


Bill