Controlling temperature

[MrMikeB]

Hello all,

I have a 140 gal, plus 20 gal sump setup that I am having a hell of a time keeping consistent temperature in. The aquarium is made of glass and recently due to the colder temps, I have noticed a wide fluctuation in the temps at night vs during mid day when the MHs are on. I currently run a 300W titanium insert in the sump with one of those cheesy thermostats that never seems to keep the temperature right. It is set at 90, which corresponds to somewhere around 75-81 depending on the day. I am always having to tinker with it in order to get the temp up or down (using a simple Coralife thermometer probe to detect the real temp). How do you keep the temps consistent no matter the conditions of the weather, MHs being on, the tide being out, etc. in some automated fashion? Ideally I would like it it to stay at 78 all the time for what I have it set up with.

Any advice is as always, greatly appreciated!

[delusions]

Get a temp controller. I use a Ranco one that has kept it solid.

[miracles38]

You can get a dual stage controller that controls heaters and fans/chiller to keep the temp really constant.

[Elite]

I think your heater is busted. I would buy 2 really good heaters 250W each. If you have $, get one of these
http://www.neptunesys.com/

[Avalanche Wolf]

Mike , You are not alone !!

But for those of us without a chiller unit only a fan running in the canopy. where would be a good cool down point.

My tank at night gets down to around 73-74 at night and after a day of lighting gets around 78 almost 79.


Moving the temp higher and higher but becoming a pain.

[dots]

Hard way: control it with the ambient air in your home......ie: heater and A/C.....downside is your tank dictates the comfort level of you home. Two summers ago I drove my girlfriend crazy controlling the A/C for the tank. This summer was "cool". I think a chiller is mandatory equipment these days....especially with SPS.

Easy way: Controller with heater and chiller.

I have a chiller and a heater without a controller and watch it regularly.....if they are set properly my daily change is low. However, I do know that consistency is they key to good, constant growth in you corals.....so sometime soon I expect to get a controller to link the two......probably it will be my next upgrade.

Current philospophy is stating about 80degees is perfect temp....so set your heater to come on 77-78 and set your A/C in your house at about 83-85 and you should be right about there. Stability is key, but a few degrees fluctuation isn't going to matter too much, you just won't get great growth......just stay within the params and you will be "O.K.", but not optimal.

[Nu2SW]

I do not agree with that at all. Like one of our past guest from september I think. If your corals and life is set to such a constant environment, then when something happens they will more likely crash. Does the temperature in the ocean stay constant??? It doesnt. I think that is why some people loose so much.

THis last summer i didnt run a chiller, My tank got up to 84 degrees never lost a thing, and when it go higher then that I ran a fan across the top of the water. for about 20-30 minutes.


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8785500#post8785500 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dots
Hard way: control it with the ambient air in your home......ie: heater and A/C.....downside is your tank dictates the comfort level of you home.

Easy way: Controller with heater and chiller.

I have a chiller and a heater without a controller and watch it regularly.....if they are set properly my daily change is low. However, I do know that consistency is they key to good, constant growth in you corals.....so sometime soon I expect to get a controller to link the two......probably it will be my next upgrade.

[dots]

There is a lot of debate on that......no the ocean does not stay at the current temperature locally, and tidals experience fluctuations of many degrees a day, and SPS are exposed to air each tidal cycle. Constant with the temperature the same all the time, no, but constant as in a constant cycle, yes. There is an acceptable range for the temp to lie in. Debatable the high and low, but most agree somewhere 74-86 +-. Like alkalinity,salinity, ca....and all the other "stable" params in the ocean, we have found that there is some "wiggle" room to these numbers. If you were driving your temp up to 84 degrees EVERY day then that would be a cycle that would be constant and "stable" so that the coral would adjust and adapt to those constant changes.

Water volume and the internal energy has a direct correlation. Meaning as we all know......smaller tank can bleed off heat faster that larger tanks with fans. One fan on say a 180....won't help much. For your tank volume......will work fine. But the smaller tank also absorbs less heat and the temp rises faster. There are many ways to skin the cat as we all know with this hobby, cooling wise.

There are two points I want to illustrate first.

One. Our tanks our not the ocean and we can not simulate every enviromental param., nor should we attempt to. Take the dissolved nutrients in the water......or things like AEFWs, redbugs, nudis....etc that are part of the ocean. We should remember that our tanks are simplified ecosystems that are missing great BIG pieces of the oceans ecosystems. To compare the two on a one on one basis, would be eroneous......the ocean is the model for our simulations.

Two. These upperlimits are not set in stone, perhaps the livestock you keep can take that high temp once or twice. Perhaps your temp reading was off a little or that fan was just the safety valve you needed? With as much time and money I have invested in my tank, I would never push the limits of any parameter to risk it. What would happen if you had a pump go out then, and the friction from it going bad decreased the mechanical efficiency of the pump,putting more heat into the water and when you are already at your max temperature?

As with our discussion with lighting my mantra is the same,(keeping anenome with PC instead of MH),...sure it can be done, but why push the limit and risk a potential problem or make it harder for oneself? Its hard enough without sabotaging oneself. I try to set all of my params to one setting in the middle of the range and try to keep them as close as possible. If something does go wrong, then I have that safeynet.

Of course, we have to remember I am talking about my SPS tank....my nano doesn't even have a temp gauge on it, because I know the LPS and Softies will take the fluctuations, even with the small volume of water. The SPS tank has two.

SPS is a different breed. Consider the difference in acceptable params of say SW versus FW. I think you would agree the SW params require a narrower range than FW. The same is true with SPS versus softies and even LPS. I have some pieces that if I feed too much one week will turn brown just from that. I took two pieces to John last week that were fine, and now are brown....which I feel horrible about. SPS are VERY sensitive to change. With that said, they don't grow fast or colorful when the params are moving all over the place......its like you and me driving on the street and hitting a lot of redlights.....stop and go, stop and go never getting the chance to open it up and get going......say like on the freeway.......sure your getting somewhere on the surface streets, but the freeway works a whole bunch better.

Being so "finicky" these SPS, and looking toward calculus, think of the SPS as the "limit of the equation" as we push it closer and closer to the "optimal" growing conditions......we are reaching stable and predictible conditions for the animal to thrive. What do you like better? Quiet, calm and predictible or ever changing weather conditions? Which one do you think you would be more productive in?

Long story short.......SPS really stands for Stability Promotes Success.......by pushing the envelope, one not only risks loosing thier corals, but stunts their growth and they never collect enough momentum to grow fast and efficiently.

An excellent example of this very same thing with temp fluctuations and stability is looking at alkalinity......look at someone who doses B-ionic weekly, versus someone who doses constantly with a doser........which corals are going to be bigger?

Nor, do lower the water daily to expose the corals to the air......once in a while if need be is alright.....I just don't do it all the time and risk a problems.

So yes, Edwin....your correct you can fluctuate....but doing EVERYDAY constantly is the best way, not once a year........I just can't afford that risk.....I don't think most people would either........

FWIW, I have about 25 frags/colonies in my tank......retail they probably average about...........$75-$100 each.......all LE or hard too find.....just trying to find them again would be a P.I.T.A. Its that fear of losing them forces me to be vigilant in keeping my params in the middle at all times so when I need it that safety net its there.......

Oh yeah, I got up to 85 once and RTNd about three pieces......that is NOT happening to me again.

In addition looking at it from a probability point of view.....which has more risk, a fluctuating tank with temps and params all over the place, or the freak occasions, when a heater or chiller goes out? By replacing equipment before its life cycle is up, one can greatly diminish those odds. Training ones corals for a fight for thier life daily is not needed.

two words: Redundant systems.....

[MrMikeB]

Thank you all for such detailed responses. I am glad that I am not alone in this, and your advice is very much appreciated. So the going theory is to make use of a controller with dual heaters, and optimally a chiller and fans. Any particular models you have in mind that will not break the bank?

Also, is the consensus to fluctuate water temps for day and night to mimic the cooling effect of night or different seasons - or is a constant temp the best way to go (all the time)?

Thanks!

[dots]

From the information I have read.......the corals are kinda like trees.....grow a lot at one time of the year, but not during the other while at less than optimal conditions.

If your looking to make everything grow out of the tank at the fastest rate possible.....pick a value and stick with that one.....but also when you can control your temp fluctuations accuratly, play with them a little to tune in your growth rate and keep it......if you would like to simulate natural conditions, which we all do to a degree during summer and winter.....(my chiller comes on once an hour during the summer, and maybe once a day currently), that flucuation won't have any ill effects as long as your within the range for the param........but keeping conditions in the optimal range will give you constant growth for the "endless summer condition" that the corals will percieve and continue their summer growth rate.

In addition, without a controller it will be hard for you to keep that value you pick and will dance around it a little......combine that with your house fluctuation.....you will have those summer/winter and day/night flucuations without even trying to create them. They key is minimizing them.

I am assuming you want that full tank with mature corals like everyone drools over......keeping the growth rate maximized is the quickest way to get there......In summary I think that as stable as possible the temp, water, lighting and other params are....is the way to get that growth rate maximized. IMO.

On the flip side, if I was an aquafarmer and shipped my product on long trips frequently........I may do as Edwin was saying and fluctuate my stock over a wide temperature range to produce hearty, strong stock for shipping purposes to ensure they survive......but since I would have more than one, wouldn't really care if I lost a couple. Cost of doing business, I would be mortified if I had a bucket of dead frags as I have seen in many stores in the past. Since I don't plan on shipping mine I see no reason to do so in my tank for the "what if" condition so I can maximize the growth. Because even with 30 frags (counted after the last post. anything not to study for finals...eh?).......my tank looks awfully bare.......combine that with that new rock I just put in......looks like my tank is three weeks old, so I for one am trying to maximize growth rates to have a little to show for all my hard work.

[miracles38]

hey Mike,
I think Ranco is about the cheapest at around $125-150, but if you are thinking about getting a controller any time in the future it would be better just to go ahead and get that now (like AC jr or ReefKeeper).

[dots]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=997688

[Brian Prestwood]

Hey All

I didn't read everything here. I use an AquaController to control temp and have very reliable temp. You can do some pretty impressive stuff with them. For my 170 I use 2 300 watt heaters and four 12 watt fans. This setup can keep the tank at 79 when the house temp is down at 60 with lights off or the house temp is up to 80 with the lights on.

The nice thing is that the AquaController will turn the lights off if the temp goes to high. It also logs the temp and turns the alarm off if it goes out of range.

[MrMikeB]

Wow... thanks for the tip Kim (et. al). I will be sure to read up on it and make a purchase soon. I am sure just not being so frustrated with fluctuating temps will be well worth the cost. Now, any of you pros out there looking to upgrade and want to sell a nice controller to a beginner - PM me!

[boviac]

MrMikeB, ygpm

[loup]

An aqua or any other controller would be a better investment. You can do so much with a controller.

I only run a 150w heater in my 250g total water tank. My aqua jr turns the heater on when the tank dips below 77 and turns heater off when it hit 79. My tank during summer runs around the 78-81 with no chiller and 3 icecap fan. In the winter, the tank dip as low as 76.5 during night and high as 78 during day.