Cyanobacteria can thrive in perfect water conditions

[lynn53]

Well I have to say that I don't believe that in order for cyano to live and spread... that your water parameter's have to be bad or even off. I even have my doubts about the amount of feeding having a lot to do with it. This is the scoop. My tank of 5 plus years has near perfect water conditions. (180 gallon)
PH 8.2-8.3
Nitrate 0
Phosphate 0 (undetectable with my test kit and the LFS)
calcium 380-400
Alk 12
DSB and a huge Euroreef skimmer
1200 return pump
1800 return pump
and 7 1200 maxijets

I've had this cyano now for about a year. Last winter we were away and granted the tank did not have a water change for 4 months...but..the corals were not fed much nor were the fish. I had the cyano long before leaving and still have it. On my return in the spring I did numerous water changes, syphoning etc. (water was still testing fine) I feed much much heavier when I am home including DT's, Oyster eggs, etc etc. The cyano is pretty much the same. Always a along the DSB. Syphoning out helps for a week or so to some extent...gets the big lots...but it just slowly comes back. I do water changes when I'm here at least once a month....and all this doesn't seem to make any difference. I look back and think the amount I had last winter when I wasn't doing changes, fed a tiny bit, a tad too old of bulbs and compare to this last 6 months where I do water changes, feed lots, new bulbs (1 month ago) and really ...the cyano is about the same amount. So I've come to the conclusion that sometimes it's just not something you can control and you just have to live with it, put up with some and not let it get to you. And if company's coming ...getting out that syphon hose.

[anr211]

Your phosphates are 0 because the cyano is "eating" it all. I had good luck getting rid of my cyano with phosban, and my tests always showed no phosphates as well.

[jasper24]

I do not disagree. I have a 58G with about 25 x flow rate. I change 10% every week. I only use 0 TDS water with Reef Crystals salt. I use 0 TDS (Typhoon 3 RO/DI) water for top off. I only have 4 fish (2 clowns, six line, small yellow tang) that I feed rinsed food 1 x per day. I change my 150W MH bulb every 6 months. I still have a small amount of this algae that just hangs around. It is not very much but I think that once you get it it is difficult to totally remove.

[helipilot]

I agree in a big way. And I thought it was just my reef.

[Randall_James]

Cyanobacteria and algae both require nutrient to survive.

The amount of either pest is related directly to the amount of free nutrient they can find to survive on.

The levels can be below the testing ability of your kits (hobbyist kits are not very accurate btw) A good refugium can help a lot as it will remove the trace amounts of these nutrients so that the undesirable algae/bacteria starve. It is hard to make sure everything is fed well enough and still maintain good water conditions, I do larger water changes myself and (knock on wood) never had to deal with cyano or nuisance algae in my tanks.

[RichConley]

Jasper, 25x turnover is low flow, especially if you have a lot of rock.

Lynn, you have wicked low flow.


Cyano is about things settling. Syphon up the cyano, and I bet you'll find pieces of whatever you're feeding the tank in it. You get cyano in areas where food can settle.


FWIW, DTs is like liquid phosphate.

[fingersdlp]

I would second the use of GFO material like phosban or ROWAphos. It has to feed on something so if you can remove its food source it has to die. A colony of macroalgea should be able to out compete the cyano for food and again starve it out if that is an option. Phosban and Chaetomorpha algea in my sump got rid of it for me.

That said I know how hard it is in some tanks to get rid of. My fish only with a high bio-load and no macro algea has had cyano spots here and there. In my case it is nitrates driving it I think.

Maybe with your older sandbed it has built up detritis or the sand is leaching silicates? To beat a dead horse that cyano has to be eating something to survive.

Not disputing how hard it can be to get rid of but I do not agree that it can survive in and environment with no food. Maybe it can thrive in perfect water conditions if its food source is not in the water or it eats all of the food in the water so it appears perfect.

[RichConley]

"Maybe with your older sandbed it has built up detritis or the sand is leaching silicates? To beat a dead horse that cyano has to be eating something to survive."

Cyano has nothing to do with silicates.

Like i said, it doesnt even have to be phosphates in the water. Its usually localized phosphates... IE a chunk of shrimp, some detritus, etc. It happens when you have stuff settling. FLOW FLOW FLOW.

[MJT82]

I'll second Rich on this one... I'll just about guarantee where the cyano is growing in your tank is a "dead spot" where there is no flow.

[Randall_James]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8784201#post8784201 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MJT82
I'll second Rich on this one... I'll just about guarantee where the cyano is growing in your tank is a "dead spot" where there is no flow. Yes but this is only a "symptom" and not the cause. You can turn out the lights and eliminate the cyano as well but again it is not addressing the root cause. The "gunk" in the sandbed is a very good source of nutrient for most nuisance growths however.

[fingersdlp]

I am not convinced cyano has nothing to do with silicates. Do a google on cyano and silicates and you will find lots of research. Here is an exerpt from a reef article on cyano:

Nuisance algae do not overcome the open reefs because of the limited amounts of nutrients available. Therefore, limiting nutrients in your tank will also aid in algae control. Nuisance algae thrives on nitrate, phosphates, and silicate. Reducing these components will help arrest a nuisance algae problem.

From: http://reefsources.itgo.com/features/articles/cyanora.html

I will research further, however.

EDIT: After research silicates feed diatoms not cyano although there are some interrelations it appears from what I have read. I agree with increased flow as good advice.

[MiddletonMark]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8783987#post8783987 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randall_James
The levels can be below the testing ability of your kits (hobbyist kits are not very accurate btw)
Most hobbyist test kits only test for certain forms of phosphate.

And problematic levels are pretty low, perhaps below resolution.

So there might be stuff your kit can't see.

[Randall_James]

You can purchase a "silicate" test but you will find that this is not the big issue in home tanks if an issue at all.

[fingersdlp]

Well I did some more research on silicate and it does appear it is mostly related to diatoms. I was just speculating on silicate leachiing and I agree that it is probably a non issue. Sorry to get the focus away from the problem of cyano.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8784225#post8784225 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randall_James
Yes but this is only a "symptom" and not the cause. You can turn out the lights and eliminate the cyano as well but again it is not addressing the root cause. The "gunk" in the sandbed is a very good source of nutrient for most nuisance growths however.


No, its not. Its the cause. You can have perfectly clean water, and have cyano, if you have a localized source of phosphate, like a bad sandbed, or a spot where food is settling. Its the same reason people have cyano in their sumps/fuges, and not in the tank. Its the lower flow, and settling of food, and not nutrients in the water.


fingerslp, cyano uses nitrate and phosphate, and needs both. It doesnt care about silicates. Unfortunately, you can't nitrate limit cyano because it can fixate its own nitrate from atmospheric nitrogen, so you have to phosphate limit it.


IMO, you need drastically more flow. 3500gph of flow is not enough for a 180.

[fingersdlp]

Thanks for the info Rich, I edited my above post to correct this.

[MiddletonMark]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8784325#post8784325 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
IMO, you need drastically more flow. 3500gph of flow is not enough for a 180.
Esp through the rockwork/stagnant areas of the tank.

I've got about that flow in my 58 :)

[MJT82]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8784225#post8784225 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randall_James
Yes but this is only a "symptom" and not the cause. You can turn out the lights and eliminate the cyano as well but again it is not addressing the root cause. The "gunk" in the sandbed is a very good source of nutrient for most nuisance growths however.

Right... just reiterating. There are excess nutrients there regardless of what the test kits are saying.

[Rhodesholar]

I believe the issue here has to do with organic phosphate. As stated algae need excess nutrients to survive, algae grows when the balance is out of whack (to much phosphate/nutrients).

Organic phosphate is not detected by a standard phosphate test kit hobbyists use, nor due phosphate removal products work in removing it. Thus phosphate tests (0) however in reality it may be quite high and the hobbyist is scratching their head wondering why everything is perfect yet they have a mat of algae.

Here is good article on phosphate. Pay special attention to the 4th paragraph on organic phospate.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/sept2002/chem.htm

[lynn53]

You guys that say my flow is too low...gosh I can't fit another maxijet on. I have 4 on one side and 3 on the other side. My brains and plates etc. on the bottom are already maxed out for flow on them. My return pumps are 1800 and 1200 mag drives??? It's pretty turbulent in my tank or so it certainly looks like it. I alway's keep the wave pros on the highest settings. How much more flow do you think it would take? and if so what could I add without hurting my bottom corals that aren't particulary fond of a real powerful flow on them.

thanks

[rigleautomotive]

i have noticed tanks with lots of copepods and other tiny scavengers never get cyano.i can take a piece of rock from my 180 with cyano and put it in a frag tank next to it and 48 hours later the cyano is gone.the only difference in the two tanks is the frag tank has refuge and millions of copepods,amphipods ect.

[figuerres]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8786806#post8786806 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lynn53
You guys that say my flow is too low...gosh I can't fit another maxijet on. I have 4 on one side and 3 on the other side. My brains and plates etc. on the bottom are already maxed out for flow on them. My return pumps are 1800 and 1200 mag drives??? It's pretty turbulent in my tank or so it certainly looks like it. I alway's keep the wave pros on the highest settings. How much more flow do you think it would take? and if so what could I add without hurting my bottom corals that aren't particulary fond of a real powerful flow on them.

thanks

Tunze in place of maxijet ??

I just got a 90 and I have started looking at different gear.

a Tunze can output way more than a MaxiJet, and with the controler it does not have to be 7x24 at full strength.

I'm thinking that next month I'll possibly order a kit with 2 of them and the controler unit, so they can cycle on/off low/high and create a more "Natural" water flow with changing directions of flow.
take a look here:
http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium_powerheads_pumps_tunze_turbelle_stream_kit.asp?CartId=

see what you think.

[figuerres]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8784237#post8784237 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fingersdlp
I am not convinced cyano has nothing to do with silicates. Do a google on cyano and silicates and you will find lots of research. Here is an exerpt from a reef article on cyano:

Nuisance algae do not overcome the open reefs because of the limited amounts of nutrients available. Therefore, limiting nutrients in your tank will also aid in algae control. Nuisance algae thrives on nitrate, phosphates, and silicate. Reducing these components will help arrest a nuisance algae problem.

From: http://reefsources.itgo.com/features/articles/cyanora.html

I will research further, however.

EDIT: After research silicates feed diatoms not cyano although there are some interrelations it appears from what I have read. I agree with increased flow as good advice.

Cyano are "CyanoBacta" BACTERIA not Alge ...

so anything that talks about Alge is not quite true for Cyano

:rolleyes:

[Rhodesholar]

Figuerres, you are correct it is a bacteria not a "true" algae.

Another article on the matter.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/bluegralgae.htm

[Amphiprion]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8784325#post8784325 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
No, its not. Its the cause. You can have perfectly clean water, and have cyano, if you have a localized source of phosphate, like a bad sandbed, or a spot where food is settling. Its the same reason people have cyano in their sumps/fuges, and not in the tank. Its the lower flow, and settling of food, and not nutrients in the water.


fingerslp, cyano uses nitrate and phosphate, and needs both. It doesnt care about silicates. Unfortunately, you can't nitrate limit cyano because it can fixate its own nitrate from atmospheric nitrogen, so you have to phosphate limit it.


IMO, you need drastically more flow. 3500gph of flow is not enough for a 180.

I definitely agree on all points here. Smaller isolated areas of cyanobacterial biofilms are caused by localized settling of some source of nutrients (namely phosphate, since available nitrogen is easily obtained via other routes by many cyanobacteria species).

[Rhodesholar]

Great discussion going here.

One personal note on the topic.

If I disturb my DSB to much, say an inch or more (long story) I will get an outbreak of cyano for 8-9 days in various spots on top of the sand bed without fail. This would support Amphiprion's suggestion of a localized outbreak. I believe it is because I disturbed the nutrient cycle, and thus the outbreak. If I leave the bed alone, I have no cyano anywhere. It is only when the sand bed is disturbed deeper then 1/2 inch or so. Also without fail after the outbreak within 8-9 days the cyano will die off. It's like the cycle gets back on track and everything returns to normal.

Lastly I can watch the cyano wave and flex in the breeze so it will grow where there is considerable flow.

Just my personal experience.

[neyugn0w01]

You can try changing the bulbs in your lighting system. This has worked for me in the past. Now I change my T5's ever 8 months are less. Good Luck.

[Randall_James]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8788017#post8788017 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Amphiprion
I definitely agree on all points here. Smaller isolated areas of cyanobacterial biofilms are caused by localized settling of some source of nutrients (namely phosphate, since available nitrogen is easily obtained via other routes by many cyanobacteria species). I think to say "low circulation is the cause of cyanobacteria" is incorrect.

Low circulation will only allow the bacteria to manifest itself. Excess nutrient and the presence of the bacteria are root causes. If low circulation was the cause of cyano, I think more tanks would see it and in larger degrees. I have a softie tank that is at 6X turnover and it is 4 years old with no cyano outbreaks ever. I think 6x would be considered extremely low circulation...

[helipilot]

I was cyano free for 6mo. I have a 28x water turnover and do 20% water changes weekly. I changed my lights @ 6 mo. and whammy-cyano. Go figure ?

[boxfishpooalot]

IIRC cyano grows when silicate is absent for diatoms to take their place.

[iamwhatiam52]

My parameters stink, but the cyno is only in my sump, growing on my cheato for over a year. Some say high flow inhibits it, but there is 2000 gph flowing through a 15 inch wide sump, and it keeps comming back.

[Drake1]

all i have to say is that i had cyno in a bucket filled with DI/Ro wated reading 0 tds added Instant ocean salt and cybo started to grow! that is the only salt i have been able to get that to happen, added the spores from just using my salinity meter in both my tank and the bucket..so take that for what its worth

[Samala]

I find it is the presence of ammonia, not just phosphate, that drives cyano bloom formation. If excess waste cant be turned into less toxic nitrogen forms fast enough, it seems to appear. And cyano seems to be sensitive enough to respond to very very low levels of ammonia, perhaps (as suggested) below resolution on test kits.

>Sarah