Phosphate question

[Joshua1023]

I don't have a problem w/ phosphates as far as I know:rolleye1: , but I know for a fact that my Aquarium Pharmacuticals test kit for it is hard to read and I'm not so convinced of its accuracy. So the question is can I throw in a phosphate sponge as a preventative measure against elevated levels? My father swears up and down that these product suck out too much phosphate and that the corals need at least some to thrive. He said that after he tossed in a phos sponge that his mushrooms shriveled up and died in a matter of a day or two. Can this even be possible? My gut tells me that he had elevated levels and the decrease from one extreme to the other was more than likely the culprit as opposed to the absence of phos. Your thoughts would be appreciated.;)

[bertoni]

Some people do report bad effects from adding phosphate reducers, so slowly building up the amount used might be less risky. This article covers GFO products:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-11/rhf/index.php

[Joshua1023]

Thanks for the tip bertoni. Just one question, if my test kit is reading zero should I bother as a preventative measure, or would you bye a more precise kit to monitor phosphates? O.K. that's two questions.

[bertoni]

I don't know how precise that test kit is. If the ppm of PO4 is less than 0.03 ppm or so, the tank should be okay. Be careful of the units on the test kit. Some report ppm of phosphorus, which will be smaller than ppm PO4, for the same level of phosphate.

[chesapeake]

phosban seems to work good but a good harvest of macro is the best for phos and nitrates

[Ralph ATL]

IMHO that test kit cost me at least $500.00! It measured 0 when my phosphate level was extremely high. You get what you pay for. Only Merk or Hach has given me accurate results on phosphate. However, if you have a phosphate problem, and you remove phosphates or nitrates too quickly, your corals cannot adjust and will perish.

[bertoni]

My Salifert kit seems reasonable to me, as one alternative.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

IMO, if you do not detect elevated phosphate with a good kit, or have a hair agale problem, or have SPS corals growing unusually slowly, I would not worry too much about trying to drive phosphate lower.

That said, few folks cause any problems by using a little GFO (iron based) phosphate binder.

This article has more:

Phosphate and the Reef Aquarium
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php


and

Iron Oxide Hydroxide (GFO) Phosphate Binders
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-11/rhf/index.htm

He said that after he tossed in a phos sponge that his mushrooms shriveled up and died in a matter of a day or two.

He may have used an aluminum based phosphate binder, which can release aluminum and irritates soem corals, including mushrooms:

Aluminum and aluminum-based phosphate binders
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/july2003/chem.htm

[Joshua1023]

So does a phosphate reactor remove all of the phosphate in your tank, or is that an immposibilty?

[NCC-1701]

I have a question based on Randy's comment. I bought a used tank that was in terrible shape. The light bulbs were over three years old, the nitrates were sky high and everything was covered with hair alge. I replaced the light bulbs and performed large water changes until the nitrates were nill and added tangs, emerald crabs and turbo snails. I now have the hair alge under control with lots of coraline purple alge growing...as long as I do not run the halides longer than 4 hours per day. Any longer and the hair alge starts to come back. The phosphates are very low when tested. Any ideas relative getting more light to my corals without growing more hair alge. I have a 215 gallon setup with 3 (150 watt halides) which are on for four hours per day and 4 (96 watt atinics) which are on for 10 hours per day. The nitrates read zero and the PO4 test less than .25. I perform a 2 gallon water change daily.

[Bill Z]

Is it true that LR and DSB can absorb PO4 and then release it back into the tank. So when you test for PO4 your not measuring what's in the LR or DSB just what's in the water.
So if my test reads 0 I could still have PO4 available for HA and corals?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So does a phosphate reactor remove all of the phosphate in your tank, or is that an immposibilty?

Impossible in practice. It removes a lot, and could remove too much for the health of organisms if overdosed, but can never remove all of it.

Is it true that LR and DSB can absorb PO4 and then release it back into the tank. So when you test for PO4 your not measuring what's in the LR or DSB just what's in the water.
So if my test reads 0 I could still have PO4 available for HA and corals?

Kits can only measure what you test, and that is in the water. But to get to a coral, it must be in the water (algae might be able to take it up from nearby water). While there can be a reservoir on calcium carboante surfaces that is in equilibrium with the water, and that can make it substantially harder to remove phospahte when the levels are very high initially, but such arguments are usually thrown out by folks trying to say negative things about sand beds without providing any actual evidence. :D

My phosphate article above discusses such issues.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The phosphates are very low when tested. .........The nitrates read zero and the PO4 test less than .25.

0.24 ppm is actually very high. Is that what you meant?

Also, it is not necessarily the phosphate concentration in the water that matters if the concern is algae. Just as growing macroalgae can remove a lot of phosphate, so can growing hair algae: it quickly sucks it up. But there must be more phosphate continuing to come in with each feeding, and so phosphate water concentrations are never a suitable way to demonstrate that you are exporting adequate phosphate WHEN hair algae is excessive.

[Joshua1023]

I went to the pet store today looking to buy a new phosphate test kist. I was told that the Salifert phosphate kit has been discontinued. Just thought that you would like to know.

[bertoni]

I doubt that test kit has been discontinued. It's still listed on the Salifert page. I think someone was out of stock.

[Joshua1023]

I picked up a SEACHEM kit while I was there. I will say that I like the ease of use, and the results were very easy to understand.(as far as color comparison tests go anyway) The test indicated a level of about 0.1. That should be an acceptable phos level to keep sps corals don't you think?

[toothman]

Why do we at least add a lower sensitivity test to the group, you most likely will have to mail order it. Hanna or Deltec at least they are designed to measure low range phosphate. I would also consider looking at your sps coral they really do tell the story a monti orange cap will tend to look much lighter when the phosphate is low 0.01 to 0.03 which is good. also look at your glass if you have alot of algae you know the answer.

I personally would never run my reef without a phosphate remover. Iron based granules for example work great like phos ban, rowa.

If you are starting a new reactor only add a small amount to start and lower the phosphate slowly, if not you can really see some RTN.

[Joshua1023]

Thanks toothman. I purchased some Phosban. I really didn't have any intention of installing a phos reactor. I have just about all the equipment to do so lying around, but space in my cabinet is at a premium. I noticed the phosban came w/ a mesh bag. I have to assume that it is O.K. to just through it in a high flow area of the sump. Correct?

[Boomer]

Jos

If you are going to be using a GFO that way I would suggest the Warner Marine PhoSar, as this is a very porous granular material that will work much better this way and also adsorbs more PO4 that the rest of them.

[Joshua1023]

Warner Marine PhoSar?

[Boomer]

Yes, it is a GFO like phos ban only better.

http://www.warnermarine.com/

Are you a ISEE member :D

[bertoni]

0.1 ppm is very high for stony corals. This article covers the issue:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/apr2002/chem.htm

[Joshua1023]

Boomer- card carrying member --Potomac Chapter for two yrs now. Plus I'm licenced in 4 states including PA which is where we are based.

Thanks bertoni. I added about 20 grams of Phosban to the mesh bag that came w/ it and hung it up in the sump. I'll test again in 24 hrs.

[Boomer]

I was for 10 years. Allot of those books in the Blasters Library where brought to the ISEE by me.

I also spent years at Minntac, the worlds largest open pit iron ore mine for Taconite.

[Joshua1023]

Sounds like your just about ready to retire. I'm w/ an excavating company and we do mostly construction blasting. It's kinda cool, something new daily.

[Joshua1023]

Sounds like your just about ready to retire. I'm w/ an excavating company and we do mostly construction blasting. It's kinda cool, something new daily.