[elegance coral]

Originally Posted by Twinfallz

Firstly, that link is concerning a system using a chaeto refugium, not an ATS, which do not grow chaeto. And, it was hair algae that appeared in Earwick7s display, not chaeto! But its good to know you are against using any algae as a nutrient export method, no matter the technique. Secondly, Earwicker7 said - "it is very minor, and probably not noticeable to anyone but me",,, so, it isn't anything like you described in your first post. He also has a deep sand bed and described it as - " dirtier than it should be due to using a let it grow wild methodology". I would say Earwick7's first problem is not maintaining his deep sand bed, and his fuge is probably not set up correctly, and therefore, not efficient. And, he would have a much worse "hair algae" problem in his display if he had no chaeto fuge at all.
Now, you can go ahead and explain why so many people, who don't use algae as an export method, get hair algae, and so many other algaes, growing in their displays.
I read a whole lot of threads on various forums, and the only people that suggest algae migration happens, and "happens a lot" are typically people who have never used algae filtration, but have a suspicious agenda against using it.

I have used many different types of algae filtration. I live in Florida where caulerpa, and many other algae grow naturally. I'm 52 years old and I've been in this hobby for more than 30 years. I've studied nature and how she works my whole life. Which is what attracted me to this hobby in the first place. I have no "suspicious agenda" against using algae filtration. In fact I've done it many many times, in many different ways, and with many different species. After decades of studying and working with it, I understand what it can, and can not, do. I apply no magical or mythological abilities to it.
So....... From what you're saying, you understanding that algae growing in a "refugium" and on chaeto, has no problem migrating from there to the display tank. You have no problem with the concept of algae migrating from the display to a device you call an ATS. But, for some unknown reason, you believe that any algae growing on this magical ATS loses it's evolutionary advantage and can no longer spread to other areas of the system. It can spread from place to place, all over the system, but the second it starts growing in an ATS, that's no longer possible??? There is no scientific or logical explanation to justify such a belief.

I don't have "turf algae" growing on my scrubber screen. No person I have built a scrubber for has "turf algae" growing on their screen. I also have never seen "turf algae" growing on the screen in any photo any participant on any forum has posted showing their scrubber screen.
Typically what is seen growing are speciec of ulva. But you, apparently, are not aware of this, or don't know the difference?

I'm not interested in getting into a debate over what constitutes "turf" algae and what doesn't. There is no end to that debate. There isn't even a good consensuses among scientists. Some try to put a height limit on the term "turf" but that doesn't work well. In areas with high grazing by herbivorous a species may be short, and fit their definition of turf, but in areas with less grazing, that exact same species may grow to tall to fit that description. So is that species turf or not??? The truth is that science doesn't have a good solid definition of turf algae. But from what you're saying it sounds like you have the one true definition..
Just something interesting.... Here's a link with pic's of ulva. Look at the second one down. Looks a whole lot like what we would call "turf" if it were on a golf course. But hay..... If it doesn't meet your definition of turf, I'm fine with that.....
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=...16369357411890

I have a couple of species of ulva growing on my screen. I did not seed the screen, the ulva grew on the screen >>> naturally<<<. It grew on the screen naturally because these species of ulva were already in my system. Either from the live rock I used. Or from coral I added. Perhaps the ulva was introduced when I used sea water for water changes. But here's the important part for you, elagance coral - never in the five years prior to installing the scrubber did I ever see any species of ulva growing in my tank, at all! It did not appear until I provided an optimum environment for it to take off.

Lets hear your explanation for that, elagance coral, and your expalnation for why the ulva hasn't ever grown in my display tank since installing my scrubber, >>>dispite me throwing in chuncks of it to feed the fish<<

I don't see your point here??? In fact, what you're saying here supports what I've been saying.
So you had a tiny amount of ulva growing in your display. So small that you never even saw it. Yet, this tiny amount had the ability to spread to you ATS. Now, without the constant grazing of fish, and possibly other herbivorous, in the display, the ulva is able to grow into a large lush colony in your ATS. But for some reason you believe that now it has lost the ability to spread to other places??? It can spread from place to place on the screen inside you ATS, but for some reason its lost the ability to spread from the screen to other places within the system????

Prior to installing my scrubber I had various algaes growing in the display as well as cyno. Within a month and a half of the scrubber screen maturing all algaes and cyno growing in the display were gone, completely. That was two years ago, and still no algaes at all growing in the display, >>>except for coralline algae, which was almost non existant prior to installing the scrubber, but which proliferated afterwards.

What you're describing isn't all that uncommon. It's also how ATS's became so popular in the first place, and why it has become popular again after people forgot the tragedy of the first go around. The species of algae were talking about, and that are commonly cultured on ATS's, have the very efficient ability to spread from one place to another. This is how it ended up on your ATS in the first place.
Early on, after the installation of an ATS, it's relatively easy to combat the spread of algae from the ATS. Things often seem to be working great. However, every second of every day, the algae in that scrubber is working to enrich the system and create areas suitable for its spread and expansion. We are already seeing the first evidence of this system degradation. Most hobbyists that keep the more delicate species have abandoned the ATS's. Why???? If this is the miracles working filtration method people like yourself claim it to be shouldn't it work those same miracles for acros and other delicate species?? Why is there a growing trend among these hobbyists to abandon ATS's?? It is because they do not function the way you believe they do. These systems are growing more and more nutrient rich. They're being flooded with allelopathic substances. It is the more delicate species that show the first signs of this degradation.
We can fight the negative effects ATS's have on a system, but at some point, the question becomes, why? Why fight this battle and put the well being of our pets at risk when there are other methods that provide the same benefits without the negative side effects?

I'm not particularly interested in Adey's ATS, as I don't consider his ATS and a modern scrubber analogous. Only people who have an agenda against scrubbers bring up his model, and whats more, blame the apparent failures of his Monaco systems on his scrubbers when other public aquariums, which also had poor results, didn't use ATS'.

You have made no fundamental changes to Dr. Adey's ATS. Your new version still functions with the EXACT same chemistry and biology. You even use the same species of algae. Growing algae on a vertical surface does not change it's biology. I understand your desire to distance yourself and your ATS from the failure that was Dr. Adey's ATS, but you can't. You copied his theory. Your ATS functions exactly like Dr. Adey's ATS, both chemically and biologically. You have not erased millions of years of evolution simply by growing the algae on a vertical screen or by lighting it with LED's.
I don't bring up his model because I have an agenda. I bring it up because it's the same as yours. We've been here, done this, and it was an utter failure. You're doing the same thing he did and telling people that you have some kind of magic that makes your ATS special. It isn't.