[pledosophy]

Originally posted by FishGrrl
No, it isn't! A theory has to be tested to be a theory. There is no way around this and saying otherwise is a fundamental lack of the scientific process.

I'm sorry if my use of the word theory or research is offensive to you. I am using the words correctly.

Definition of theory
Definition of research

I do think you are arguing semantics. I did not call it a scientific theory, or scientific research. The analogies are becoming more and more ridiculous. I am not one who really likes to argue, for the sake of arguing. I come here to try to help people with there questions based on my research and experiences. Based on your earlier statements nothing I have ever posted on this site or others has any validity, but the people who have received it have been thankful, and have success. Hard to argue with results.

It is one thing to find constructive criticism, or alternative lines of thinking, I am very open to new ideas (I took you up on one of them ); but that is not what is happening here. If you wanted to bring up the theory about the rising PH level in a seahorses blood causing acidosis which would create poor respiration and CO2 exchange, kidney disease and gill disease; that would be welcomed. At least you would be making a contribution besides skepticism.

It is discouraging that while I continually grant the request for more information on the content I have posted, the favor is not returned by those granting the requests on the matters that they post.

So here it goes.

And none of them mean anything without knowing what percentage of the general populus is using protien skimmers. THats where the whole crux of the argument is.

Since Rich never gave us the link to his poll, I decided to make my own. It can be found
here

I would have like to get more responses, but I only have 60 right now. I do hope that the number of responses will keep increasing. I posted the poll on some other sites as well, but never got more then 3 responses off of a different site. The link is to the largest response I was able to gather.

Since that site limits each member to one vote per person, people who kept multiple tanks were allowed to post there different setups and then the poll numbers were adjusted to reflect multiple tank setups. The largest vote by any member was 6 (5 tanks with HOB skimmers 1 without). The survey was only of hobbyists not of any commercial breeding facilities. All the info posted in the replies and all the votes were counted. Nothing was disqualified.

Current stats

No protein skimmer 45.9%
HOB protein skimmer 31.15%
Protein Skimmer in sump 22.95%

So just under 70% of seahorse keepers from this poll do not use a HOB protein skimmer. Just under 46% of the keepers from this poll do not use a protein skimmer at all. However the poll for GBD from the same site showed that 80% of those keepers used a protein skimmer.

Fishgrrls example is pretty much the same. 100% of seahorses with GBD have had long term exposure to Sodium Chloride.

Without knowing that 100% of seahorses have long term exposure to salt, it appears that the salt is causing it, when in fact theres absolutely no causation going on there (there is correlation though)

Do you have any documented cases of any of the forms of GBD appearing in the wild? I have never heard or read any report of a seahorse with GBD in the ocean. All other seahorses diseases, but not GBD. Since it has never been observed in the wild it is thought that something in our aquarium systems is the cause. Sorry but for now, salt's out. The analogy is just a bit too far fetched, as are some of the others.

We have suggested ways, Pledosophy just keeps denying that theyre needed.

You have suggested that GBD was caused by salt, that it was a mycobacteria infection, and that it is caused by a stress response deriving from powerheads. All of which I have given you reasons, backed by research, on why these suggestions were not accurate. Truthfully all of them show that you have very little idea what you are talking about.

The only other suggestion you had that could be construed as somewhat helpful, was to get a survey of the number of people who use protein skimmers . I offered you the task since you so readily dismiss any link to research that I provide, however you were not up for it. If you really did survey 20 other keepers (minimuim needed to reach the 95% stat you gave) I would love to see the results.

Since the GBD survey is ongoing, the link provided above in response to the number of people on that site currently using protein skimmers is accurate. As stated it would be nice if there were more responses, but the level of participation should give some insight in to the number of people using HOB protein skimmers on that site. Hopefully people will continue to be involved in the survey and as the numbers increase we can get a better picture.

And I think that is my grip; dissuading aquarists from skimmers can be a huge disservice to them and their charges. Seahorses are big pooping machines, and without a good way to remove the waste, it can cause many problems. Skimmers help with that. Of course its not the only way, but for many people its the easiest.

Giving people the facts related to a desicion is not a bad thing IMO. In fact I believe this site is fueled by people who seek other peoples experience. You don't like my input because I clump a bunch of people's experiences into numbers fine, the members could dig through the posts themselves; there are several hundred on GBD that I have read.

If you think my remarks are disuading people from using skimmers fine. Please reread my first post where I stated I used one.

There are several ways to run a system. Many people keep seahorses without skimmers and at the same time have good water quaility. It is not hard to do. In fact if you read through this thread I have even explained different ways to accomplish that without using a protein skimmer.

Sometimes there's a big difference between the easy way and the right way. I'm not syaing using a skimmer is the wrong way, but making an informed desicion on the husbandry practices we choose to follow is definetly the right way IMHO.

Pledo I cant see why you couldnt post polls here and the second syngnathid board to get as many responses as possible. Particularly for the "do you run a skimmer" / "do you not run a skimmer" question. You may find that some groups of aquarists are natively predisposed to run one or not run one.

Honestly, I'm kinda burnt. I think I'm going to take a break from here for awhile.

I ran the poll on SH.org because that is where the GBD poll was taken. I'm on the site everyday so it is easy. I also ran it on the WAMAS board and Fish Forums, but the responses where limited at best. I don't go to the other syngnathid board much anymore, it's pretty slow.

Sh.org has just under 6,000 members. We are kind of a diverse group; we actually have a reefer or two. I know with me and many other people, we got into seahorses and then those trips to the LFS got us all into reefing. I have had a tank or 6 at a time. The thing that almost every member has in common is that they keep seahorses, which makes it in ideal place to gather info on seahorses. Many of the members there are members here.

It would be great if the different sites could all work together, I think the reluctance is less political and has more to do with some hurt feelings possible on both sides; much of them stemming from some events that happened recently. It is unfortunate things transpired the way they did to say the least.

I really feel this thread has run its useful course.

I agree.