Reef Central Online Community - View Single Post - Cryptic Sponge & Sea Squirt Filtration Methodology

Brad Ward · 07/04/2001, 11:10 AM

Hi Steve,

< sponges at all. He assumed they could not be kept.
One of the problems berlin aquarist have is that opportunistic species can proliferate even within
the semi-exposed and semi-cryptic sheltered areas of a typical brightly lighted modern
coral reef aquarium. If is much safer to have a separate area for them to grow. One that
wont be exposed to occasional high levels of sedimentation, turbidity and sudden intense
light exposure.>>

Funny you should mention Alf, because he was part of the group I was in when we saw your systems. Haven't gotten around to getting his third book yet, but someday I will along with yours. I tried to get yours before our first Next Wave conference but you didn't have any at the time. I would definately disagree with Alf as well as to his assumption that they can not be kept. I agree that they are evident just about anywhere that they can grow. It was a big mistake on my part not to take this into account when re setting up my sps mother colony tank.

>Brad Ward wrote
>When your live rock filled tank matures, you have all those areas that Tyree calls the
>cryptic zones.

< occurring within a shallow water habitat. These zones are however not very supportive
of the cryptic animals. There can be frequent intervals of turbid water that can kill
off the cryptic organisms. These internal cavities and crevices can also be overwhelmed
by deposits of particulate matter. They can support cryptic animals short term, but
are more suited for semi-cryptic and semi-exposed animals.>>

Of course they will only grow where a suitable niche is available. I feel most rockwork in systems give adequate surface area for the proper niches to appear given energy to grow. Personal experience has taught me that these zones and the life therein will continually change and evolve during the span of time that the system is set up.

>Brad Ward wrote
> Sponges grow without any help or planning in nost of the reef structures everyone
>already has!

< semi-cryptic organisms. These organisms were killed of by the collecting and
transporting process. There are what decomposes during the curing process. >>

What about introduction from additions? Coral additions that have rock bases attatched are an excellent way to seed for sponge in our systems. I was lucky enough to collect my own rock in Florida before the ban, and it has only briefly ever left the water in 12 years. I have however also seen rock from the S. Pacific that has been shipped dry and sat in a warehouse for up to two weeks, so I know what you mean.

>Brad Ward wrote
>I think that's why Ron wasn't that interested.

< into the hobbyist hands. >>

I certainly don't disparrage your work and hope you continue to study. I don't think either of you has not tried to help the hobby.

< platform itself has at least one half of its inhabitable surface structure as cryptic
zones. Most hobbyist tanks contain mostly exposed zones with only a minor amount of
cracks and crevices for the cryptic zone.>>

I also agree that our systems surfaces are severely lacking what is clearly apparent in the ocean. But then again, I have never seen a closed system design that is capable of matching the variety that open ocean has due to the size restraints. Are you saying that your system design has produced these surface area populations found in nature? That would be neat.

< semi-cryptic sponges and cryptic to semi-cryptic sea squirts is simply amazing.>>

I must have been lucky to grow so many of these cryptic areas w/o trying because I still continue to have success in all my systems growing them. Feeding definately contributes to these cryptic areas and the amount of life associated in total. They are still just a part of the system though, and maximum surface area including sand is important as well. Therefore I use sand beds along w/rock. Is this the perfect way to run a system? I know it's not, we haven't gotten there yet.

>Brad Ward wrote

>All Steve is proposing is a refugium for low light low flow sponge colonies.

<< Not exactly. I am proposing that you should stop ignoring the cryptic zones of
the tropical reef platform. There are more cryptic surfaces than there are exposed.>>

I agree that the cryptic zones are very productive, and believe me, as they have grown in my systems over the years I have noted the large biomass present. It would depend on the reef model in the tank itself how they would grow. As you stated earlier, closed system reef tanks are in no way alike to nature. We can't hope to recreate the ocean in even a two hundred thousand gallon tank. Least I haven't seen one yet.

>Brad wrote
>I prefer to use the space I have with something far more interesting than rocks
>with sponges.

< a whole bunch of other animals start showing up. Besides, sponges and squirts
are some of the most colorful organisms that inhabit reef platforms.>>

I was merely saying that any visable display area I and most hobbyist have, is more than likely going to be set up for corals. Sumps and refugiums can be cool as well for all the reasons we are discussing.

< sponges I found growing in that sump surprised me. Also mentioned that to over
500 people at Macna X. There was also some wierd sponge growth under the
rocks in my 180 exposed reef flats. Then of course RTN hit in 1996 and almost
destroyed the SPS market.>>

Steve, believe me, the pleasure was all mine. It was your system that impressed me enough to believe that a hobbyist could make a difference, and it prompted me to begin my own humble little farm. Thank you. I remember your set up perfectly. I saw it when I was at the WMC in 95 when you had the two tanks and sump w/huge (K2R)? skimmer in the living room and the 180 frag tank in the laundry room off the kitchen. I couldn't pry a "purple monster" frag away from you even with a real unusual trade. I remember the problems in 96 and have to admit, that was the only time I haven't been sorry that I wasn't out there near the wholesalers on a regular basis.

>Brad wrote
>I also run my tanks w/o chillers because of the cost.

< The cryptic refugium has minimal power requirements. The internal cryptic
zone has almost none.>>

I have stated that there are more than one way to a successful tank. Refugiums for whatever you want to limit nutrients with will be fine. I use my sump like this as you did. It was not intentional at first.

>Brad wrote
>Having a skimmer on my tank is like a security blanket as far as
>spawning goes as well. I have had spawning clams totally fog the tank with eggs
>and sperm. I wouldn't want to think what would have happened in a skimmerless
>system.

<< Actually, the spawns are food for the sponges and sea squirts. They can filter
the water very quickly. If you have an internal cryptic zone they will also keep
filtering during a long power outage. >>

It all depends on the spawn I guarrantee you, a massive clam spawn will tax even the best systems that I have seen unless the system has a huge reserve away from the exhibit. Bruce Carlson just reported a massive spawn in their tanks that "wasn't pretty". I will keep the skimmer and keep feeding. Since I use a sandbed, we won't get into the 02 thing.
Visit to see what you have wrought @: http://coralfarmer.homestead.com/home.html

Regards,

Brad

07/04/2001, 11:10 AM	#18
Brad Ward 10 & Over Club Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Grapevine, Texas Posts: 545	Hi Steve, < sponges at all. He assumed they could not be kept. One of the problems berlin aquarist have is that opportunistic species can proliferate even within the semi-exposed and semi-cryptic sheltered areas of a typical brightly lighted modern coral reef aquarium. If is much safer to have a separate area for them to grow. One that wont be exposed to occasional high levels of sedimentation, turbidity and sudden intense light exposure.>> Funny you should mention Alf, because he was part of the group I was in when we saw your systems. Haven't gotten around to getting his third book yet, but someday I will along with yours. I tried to get yours before our first Next Wave conference but you didn't have any at the time. I would definately disagree with Alf as well as to his assumption that they can not be kept. I agree that they are evident just about anywhere that they can grow. It was a big mistake on my part not to take this into account when re setting up my sps mother colony tank. >Brad Ward wrote >When your live rock filled tank matures, you have all those areas that Tyree calls the >cryptic zones. < occurring within a shallow water habitat. These zones are however not very supportive of the cryptic animals. There can be frequent intervals of turbid water that can kill off the cryptic organisms. These internal cavities and crevices can also be overwhelmed by deposits of particulate matter. They can support cryptic animals short term, but are more suited for semi-cryptic and semi-exposed animals.>> Of course they will only grow where a suitable niche is available. I feel most rockwork in systems give adequate surface area for the proper niches to appear given energy to grow. Personal experience has taught me that these zones and the life therein will continually change and evolve during the span of time that the system is set up. >Brad Ward wrote > Sponges grow without any help or planning in nost of the reef structures everyone >already has! < semi-cryptic organisms. These organisms were killed of by the collecting and transporting process. There are what decomposes during the curing process. >> What about introduction from additions? Coral additions that have rock bases attatched are an excellent way to seed for sponge in our systems. I was lucky enough to collect my own rock in Florida before the ban, and it has only briefly ever left the water in 12 years. I have however also seen rock from the S. Pacific that has been shipped dry and sat in a warehouse for up to two weeks, so I know what you mean. >Brad Ward wrote >I think that's why Ron wasn't that interested. < into the hobbyist hands. >> I certainly don't disparrage your work and hope you continue to study. I don't think either of you has not tried to help the hobby. < platform itself has at least one half of its inhabitable surface structure as cryptic zones. Most hobbyist tanks contain mostly exposed zones with only a minor amount of cracks and crevices for the cryptic zone.>> I also agree that our systems surfaces are severely lacking what is clearly apparent in the ocean. But then again, I have never seen a closed system design that is capable of matching the variety that open ocean has due to the size restraints. Are you saying that your system design has produced these surface area populations found in nature? That would be neat. < semi-cryptic sponges and cryptic to semi-cryptic sea squirts is simply amazing.>> I must have been lucky to grow so many of these cryptic areas w/o trying because I still continue to have success in all my systems growing them. Feeding definately contributes to these cryptic areas and the amount of life associated in total. They are still just a part of the system though, and maximum surface area including sand is important as well. Therefore I use sand beds along w/rock. Is this the perfect way to run a system? I know it's not, we haven't gotten there yet. >Brad Ward wrote >All Steve is proposing is a refugium for low light low flow sponge colonies. << Not exactly. I am proposing that you should stop ignoring the cryptic zones of the tropical reef platform. There are more cryptic surfaces than there are exposed.>> I agree that the cryptic zones are very productive, and believe me, as they have grown in my systems over the years I have noted the large biomass present. It would depend on the reef model in the tank itself how they would grow. As you stated earlier, closed system reef tanks are in no way alike to nature. We can't hope to recreate the ocean in even a two hundred thousand gallon tank. Least I haven't seen one yet. >Brad wrote >I prefer to use the space I have with something far more interesting than rocks >with sponges. < a whole bunch of other animals start showing up. Besides, sponges and squirts are some of the most colorful organisms that inhabit reef platforms.>> I was merely saying that any visable display area I and most hobbyist have, is more than likely going to be set up for corals. Sumps and refugiums can be cool as well for all the reasons we are discussing. < sponges I found growing in that sump surprised me. Also mentioned that to over 500 people at Macna X. There was also some wierd sponge growth under the rocks in my 180 exposed reef flats. Then of course RTN hit in 1996 and almost destroyed the SPS market.>> Steve, believe me, the pleasure was all mine. It was your system that impressed me enough to believe that a hobbyist could make a difference, and it prompted me to begin my own humble little farm. Thank you. I remember your set up perfectly. I saw it when I was at the WMC in 95 when you had the two tanks and sump w/huge (K2R)? skimmer in the living room and the 180 frag tank in the laundry room off the kitchen. I couldn't pry a "purple monster" frag away from you even with a real unusual trade. I remember the problems in 96 and have to admit, that was the only time I haven't been sorry that I wasn't out there near the wholesalers on a regular basis. >Brad wrote >I also run my tanks w/o chillers because of the cost. < The cryptic refugium has minimal power requirements. The internal cryptic zone has almost none.>> I have stated that there are more than one way to a successful tank. Refugiums for whatever you want to limit nutrients with will be fine. I use my sump like this as you did. It was not intentional at first. >Brad wrote >Having a skimmer on my tank is like a security blanket as far as >spawning goes as well. I have had spawning clams totally fog the tank with eggs >and sperm. I wouldn't want to think what would have happened in a skimmerless >system. << Actually, the spawns are food for the sponges and sea squirts. They can filter the water very quickly. If you have an internal cryptic zone they will also keep filtering during a long power outage. >> It all depends on the spawn I guarrantee you, a massive clam spawn will tax even the best systems that I have seen unless the system has a huge reserve away from the exhibit. Bruce Carlson just reported a massive spawn in their tanks that "wasn't pretty". I will keep the skimmer and keep feeding. Since I use a sandbed, we won't get into the 02 thing. Visit to see what you have wrought @: http://coralfarmer.homestead.com/home.html Regards, Brad __________________ Have you joined your local Aquarium Society yet? Last edited by Brad Ward; 07/04/2001 at 11:26 AM.