fish/coral deaths with flatworm exit

[johara]

I've got a major flatworm infestation in my 155. Siphoning is not particularly effective, there are just as many visible a day later. It seems only 10% or less of the worms are visible and siphonable at any given time so there's bound to be a huge body toxin load if they are killed. I want to try flatworm exit and have done lots of searches to learn as much as possible first. So far I have not seen any posts where livestock was killed when carbon was used actively as opposed to passively. Has anyone had any losses following the specific instructions and using active carbon filtration? Has anyone used it with flatworms in the thousands - mats on sand and rocks?

Johara.

[Flame*Angel]

I've been where you are now. Last October, when my flatworms were at their worst, they formed mats that choked off my deep sandbed. Siphoning became a waste of time as just 24 hours later you'd never be able to tell I siphoned at all.

I chose to work towards reducing my numbers of flatworms before attempting to use Salifert Flatworm Exit. The biggest risk, as you know, is the toxins from the dying flatworms. The more flatworms the more toxin. Over the months I've gone from a million flatworms to maybe a couple hundred. This is how:

• Keep your tank temperature down to 75-76F. At this temperature the flatworms propagate MUCH slower and siphoning once a week is plenty.
  
• Don't feed anything that will benefit the flatworms. This includes phytoplankton, rotifers, baby brine shrimp (I had to shut down my cultures temporarily) and golden pearls. Even at low temperatures they will propagate quickly if you feed them.
  
• Siphon them out at least once a week. The more often the better.
  
• Blast your rocks with a turkey baster or powerhead regularly. This will dislodge the flatworms as well as detritus and algae that builds up in the rocks and also feeds them.
  

Hope this helps.

[johara]

I don't think I could keep the temp down that low without buying a chiller. I've got 900w of metal halide over the tank and fans in the hood and over the sump. Max temp now is at 81. I stopped using any live foods some months ago (having seen your suggestion previously). I haven't been religious about the weekly rock blasting, could do better with that. When you siphon, do you filter out the worms or change the water with each siphoning? I've been doing the water change method as I feared that some worm juice would leak into water if I just filtered, but it definitely increases the work load and leads me to do it less often. I still have yet to hear from anyone who actively filtered with carbon when using the Flatworm Exit and had any livestock losses. I'm tempted to try it before I get truly inundated with these worms. Most of my sandbed is still flatworm free, I think my fighter conchs chase them off or else the current is too strong for them - they've all congregated on rock and in the back where it's tough to siphon.

Thanks for the tips.

Johara

[ToiletTank13]

I haven't been at this long enough, but what eats flatworms?

[Peabody]

Usually nothing. Tha'ts the killer. Once in a while a particular wrasse, scooter blenny, or even mandarin will maybe eat one, but they are very rare! The only guarenteed predator is a type of nudibranch I believe, because that's all they eat (see article in Advanced Aquarist). But those aren't easy to come by.

[Flame*Angel]

johara - I have my sump in the basement so siphoning is a big chore for me. I mix up 30g of new salt water and hook up my automatic top-off to it. Then I drag another 30g garbage can upstairs and set it on a little wheeled trolly I made. I use a 7' siphon tube with a length of rigid tubing on the end. I siphon into the garbage can and stop when it's full. In the basement the auto top-off replaces water as I take it out so there's little disruption to the tank and I get a water change (diluted) at the same time. When I'm done I wheel the full garbage can to the kitchen and use a powerhead with the tubing to pump it into the sink. This I've been doing once a week since forever *groan*

You really should just do a forum search on Flatworm Exit. There are plenty of detailed responses, I wouldn't count on someone who has taken the time to type in their report doing it again here.

ToiletTank13 - I also searched for a biological solution to flatworms. After MUCH trial and error I now have 2 flatworm eating fish, a canary wrasse and an ornate leopard wrasse. HOWEVER - and this is a big however - I really don't think any fish will eradicate an established population of flatworms. By the time I got these two I had thousands of flatworms and, no matter how many they eat, the flatworms propagate faster. There are drawbacks to the seaslug too. Especially if you have current or powerheads. Which most people do.

[johara]

Susan - Thanks for taking the time to reply - I know you spend a lot of time answering these questions because I actually have spent many many hours doing searches on this topic (and others).

My specific question that I have not found in any of the searches, and the reason for my post is to find out whether anyone using active carbon filtration during the treatment has had any losses. The only two people I fouond in searching who posted about deaths after Flatworm Exit had apparently just put carbon passively in the sump. This seems very different to me than actively using a cannister filter for the carbon.

[RonSF]

Johara-
Have you been able to get your hands on Flatworm Exit yet? I live in San Rafael and work in SF. None of the local stores that I have called even know what it is except for Eddie at Tropical Paradise, who says that he might get some in within a week or two. I posted a question earlier asking if anyone could find any online at the moment and so far have no leads.

As for the carbon, I corresponded with Habib at Saliefert a few times on the subject and he convinced me to use active carbon filtration. I have two unused hang on filters that I was going to put on my sump filled with carbon, as well as a couple of bags of carbon that I was going to throw into the sump for good measure. So far, I believe you are correct that there have been no reported disasters from people who have used active carbon during treatment.

[johara]

Ron,

I got the Flatworm Exit from www.fishsupply.com for 12.99. I just checked and they still have it listed as available. I hope Eddie does get it in, I'm quite sure that's where I got the FWs from, though these days they're pretty ubiquitous. I think I'm ready to give it a go, I've been siphoning without much of a dent in their numbers but at least I don't have the huge mats people have described - at least where I can see. I'll use my Fluval cannister filter and also a diatom filter (minus the diatoms) to filter out the dead ones - it's got about 200 gal/hr flow - a little better than the cannister. I think I'll also try the sockfull of carbon on the end of the overflow tubes method. Wish me luck!

Johara

[RonSF]

Fishsupply no longer has it in stock, although their site doesn't tell you that. They must have been one of the last to have any inventory. It's just a little frustrating, since I spent a long time deliberating and doing research, and now that I have decided to pull the trigger--no ammo (I think of myself as a pacifist, but I must admit, these guys bring out the agression in me like no other).

[tunahunter]

Hey all, I'm one of the few who used the Exit with just passive carbon filtration. I lost 4 out my 6 fish, with only the clownfish not being affected.

But what I wanted to bring to your attention is that 4 days after using the product ( and I more than doubled the recommended dose), I have the worms back. I noticed a few little ones on the glass over the weekend, but this morning I found hundreds on some of the rocks.

Based on what I went through, I'm not going to use it again. I'll deal with the worms as before - siphoning and basting.

[Flame*Angel]

johara - I wasn't able to find anyone who used carbon aggressively and had losses either. I still haven't used mine but when I do I'm planning to double dose and then do the procedure again within 3 weeks whether I see a flatworm or not.

In Canada you can buy Flatworm Exit here:
www.mops.ca
www.jlaquatics.com

tunahunter - I feel so bad for you. You have had an awful experience both with the flatworms and with the cure. I sure hope your tank recovers.

[johara]

Well I took the plunge. I double dosed 5 hours ago. Most corals closed up right away, a couple are just now starting to "think" about showing a polyp or two. The fish are hiding but darted out to eat, so far they look ok. Unfortunately I still see several live flatworms. I'm siphoning them out along with the dead ones, but I'm not optimistic that this worked. I'll have to see if the Canadian mail order places will ship to us down here as it appears all the U.S. places are out of stock, and I'm going to have to re-dose sometime soon. I'll let you know how it all plays out.

Johara

[johara]

Okay, here's the update as promised. I used one full bottle on my 155 plus 25 sump, I'm guessing maybe 130-150 total gallons, so about double dose. I had siphoned all I could see or get at every few days for about one to two weeks without a noticeable change in numbers. I would call the load moderate to heavy, some mats on rocks and in back, 50-100 visible on glass in lowest flow areas, but none on 90% of sand surface. They began dying quickly, I ran a diatom filter without diatoms just to filter out the worms because it has a pretty good flow rate. I actively siphoned out as best I could running back into sump through nylon stocking bag. About 10 minutes after they started dying, I started a Fluval cannister filter with 2 lbs. of Kent reef carbon. I also put stockings full of carbon on the outlet of both overflows into sump. All the carbon is still running 2 days later. I changed out 60 gallons a few hours after the dosing, and another 30 gallons yesterday.

All corals and my LTA shrank up quickly, all fish dashed for cover. So far, I lost my pair of squamipinis anthias, I saw them alive at 8:00am the next day and dead at 9:00am, so I know they died 18 hours after dosing. The other fish (hippo and sailfin tang, 2 striped shrimp gobies, pair of maroon clowns and a black spot Genocanthus angel are now out and eating. They look slightly frayed, my guess is they got frantic all massed together in the rocks. All except the clowns are still a little skittish. My serpent star, anemone, clam, cleaner shrimp, urchins, snails, hermits, tubeworms and pods all appear to be fine so far. The SPS all have extended polyps, but one acropora and a merulina are slightly faded in blotches. The xenia and mushrooms look much better than initially,and are almost completely extended 48 hours later. Other softies recovered within 24 hours or less. The nitrate level bumped from 0.1 ppm to 1.0 ppm. I don't normally run a skimmer but I did put my old one (a Berlin) in a few hours after the dosing. It's not pulling out much skimmate. Initially a little bit of very black gunk - carbon particles I think. I expected more reddish stuff but haven't seen more than a trace of green-black skimmate. And - so far no flatworms in sight. I plan to dose again, FW or not, in about 3 weeks if I can find some more Flatworm Exit. I like others, am pretty convinced it's the worm toxin not the medication that causes the deaths.

So, the summary version about 48 hours after double dosing - SPS with minor bleaching but alive so far, LPS didn't like it but recovering fast - ditto for softies. Other inverts, including LTA are fine. Pair of previously healthy anthias died, other fish look ok so far. Active carbon filtration and aggressively siphoning all worms did not avoid all deaths. Though I am sad about the anthias, overall I am relieved to have (for now) gotten rid of the ugly worms and the worries about their crashing at an unpredictable time and doing even worse damage to the tank.

Hope this wasn't too long - just wanted to repay for all the info I've gotten from others in my long research period before taking the plunge!

Johara

[RonSF]

Johara-

Your anthias are the first fish that I have seen reported dying as a result of Flatworm Exit from someone running active carbon. I'm sorry for your loss.

Any theories as to why these particular fish succumbed when the others didn't? I know that they are generally regarded as a deep water fish, but didn't think that they were considered particularly delicate. Any signs of external damage from running into rocks?

I find it interesting that all fish seem to retreat from the stuff immediately, even though it doesn't harm (most of) them in the long run. It must be quite unpleasant to them, if not outright toxic.

I'm still searching for Flatworm Exit for my needs. At this point, it seems like the whole country is waiting for another shipment of the stuff. I'll let you know if I find any. Please keep the updates coming, since this is largely uncharted territory we are navigating.

[Flame*Angel]

johara - thanks for the report, it wasn't too long - those of us considering using it want all the details we can get. I'm very sorry to hear about your Anthias but I can certainly understand your relief in being rid of the flatworms.

Keep us posted!

[Habib]

Johara:

They began dying quickly, I ran a diatom filter without diatoms just to filter out the worms because it has a pretty good flow rate. I actively siphoned out as best I could running back into sump through nylon stocking bag.

So all the toxins were transferred back into the tank?

TIA

[johara]

Habib - I had carbon in the diatom filter as well, and rinsed it out several times with fresh water to get rid of the dead worms that collected. I didn't use diatoms as I was concerned they would rip up the soft FW bodies and release toxin even faster. There is a filter in there even without the diatoms, it's larger gauge but plenty fine enough to filter out the FWs. I also siphoned with a large diameter tube filtering out the worms into a nylon bag which I discarded with it's contents every 15 minutes or so and had carbon in those bags as well. In addition to these methods I had a cannister filter going with another 2 pounds of carbon. I don't know how I could have better avoided some of the toxins getting recirculated short of truly massive water changes which would have been impossible to do quickly enough without leaving large numbers of corals exposed.

My take on all this, is that we should either be treating FW when their numbers are still minimal, or controlling them as best we can with siphoning, but not using Flatworm Exit or any other chemical method when there are still moderate to large numbers present. I feel I followed all instructions, waited a fairly long time to treat while doing frequent siphonings to mimimize their numbers as best I could before treating, and still had some deaths. Would I have had more deaths due to a tank crash if I hadn't treated? That I really don't know. There have been a couple of reports of tank crashes attributed to FWs, but it's hard to be sure. As I watch my genicanthus angel die a slow death today, 3 days later, I'm feeling pretty bad about my decision to treat.

Other thoughts for those contemplating doing this are:

If you can get any fish or maybe even moveable corals out to a holding tank, do so before treatment. Perhaps Habib could comment on what time period might be appropriate before moving them back in. I don't have a sense of whether the fish dying 3 days later is dying of continued bad water conditions (though the other fish are acting normally now) or whether lethal damage was done early and is just taking time to complete it's course. I did, by the way, check nitrites and ammonia (both zero) to assure the stress wasn't from a cycling bump from the FW deaths. My nitrates did go up from 0.1 ppm baseline to 1.0 ppm the day after treatment. One question for Habib - how long should we be running carbon after the treatment?

Don't drip the Flatworm Exit directly into the tank, dilute it in tank water first or put it in the sump away from corals. It looked to me, though I can't be sure, like the partially bleached corals were those that I dripped near and thus got a brief higher dose. some of my pink xenia now looks highlighted - strands of yellow polyps in among the pink. You can't kill xenia though, it's all coming back, even the yellow parts.

It's probably worth continuing to describe losses specifically. It may turn out that some species are more sensitive to this toxin than others. My clownfish and mandarin never seemed to notice a problem, other than annoyance when the anemone closed up for a day. The maroon clownfish spawned the day after the treatment, and continue to happily tend their eggs as usual. The mandarin never hid, just cruised around oblivious whle the tangs, angel and anthias freaked out.

And like everything else in this hobby - patience, patience, patience. Sounds like Susan really has been able to substantially decrease the number of FWs in her tank with endless siphoning. Maybe I could have too, just didn't have the time or patience to spend months doing daily siphoning.

And to put it in perspective - I'm sad to have lost three fish, happy to still have all my corals, anemone and clam and no flatworms so far. I know from other's experience that they will almost certainly be back, but I'm hopeful the Flatworm Exit will become available again in the U.S. and I will treat long before they have a chance to multiply out of control again.

Johara

[LauraBay]

Johara,

I was wondering if there was any particular reason you did a double dose on your first try? Do you think it would make sense for someone with a heavy FW population to do a "regular" dose first to get rid of part of the flatworms(reduce the population) and then redose later to get the remaining ones? Just was thinking this might be less stressful on the other inhabitants of the tank.

Not saying you did anything wrong I was just thinking about this and wondering if I missed something.

Also what was the third fish that you lost? I'm thinking that you're right about some being more sensative to this process.

Laura

[johara]

Laura - There has been some discussion of the FWs developing resistance to the product, and many, many reports of only partial success with the recommended initial dose. I didn't want to risk developing a strain of resistant FWs. I agree it might not have been the right choice, but that's what my thinking was.

The third fish death was(will be) a black spot genocanthus angel - a large (about 6") fish that initially hid but looked ok, but began lying on it's side with heavy breathing about 50 hours post treatment and now 12 hours later is still alive but doesn't appear able to move, and has both eyes all clouded over. I plan to euthanize it (freezer) as I don't see any chance of recovery at this point.

[Reef Addict II]

Hi everyone,

I have a question.

I just recently set-up my 300g tank (450g total volume)

I do not have any fish yet, but I have about 7-8 corals. When I picked up my corals from my friend, he has a flatworm ploblem.

I know ive seen a few in my new tank as hitchhikers.

I do have a bottle of flatworm exit coming. Since there are probably not more than 40-50 of these(if that in my tank), Should I just dose the tank and run carbon?

After reading this thread is seems the toxin from the worms is the culprit, not the medication. So having only a few of them in my tank, I figured kill'em now or??


Steve

[johara]

Steve - I absolutely would recommend you treat the tank soon, these guys can multiply fast, and the more you have the more dangerous the treatment. You're going to need more than the one bottle though with your total volume over 300 gallons, even to do the minimum treatment. I would hesitate to partially treat as resistance in survivors seems to be a potential problem.

[Reef Addict II]

I was going to shut down my refugium line.

I could also shut my sump line down also and just run the 2 closed loops, but I will need to have carbon and I wanted to put the carbon right in front of the intake to the sump.

I have 2 bottles coming hopefully shipping tomorrow.

Yes I want to try it, before I have any fish.

My 300g tank has about 240g of water, sump is about 75g and the refugium is 90g.

So actual water volume is 405g

Steve

[Habib]

Johara,

I will try to answer your questions in the coming days. The questions are not easy because of too many variables such as flow through rate, tank volume and time period in which the flatworms are still dying to name just a few. I however expect that the answer will be that 24 hours use of carbon in a working canister filter should be sufficient.


Do you have an estimate how many flatworms were still in the tank when commencing with the treatment. A couple of hundred, a few thousand,..?

TIA

[johara]

Steve - I would highly recommend that you treat all the parts of your system and not isolate sump or refugium - there have been almost no reports of loss of pods etc. esp with your low FW load and it would be awfully easy to miss a few FWs in those parts of the system and then need to retreat later when you do have fish or more vulnerable inhabitants. Also, despite your low FW load, I think ACTIVE carbon filtration with a cannister filter is far safer than more passive carbon at sump intake or ouput. There are pretty cheap diy ideas you'll find with a search if you don't have a cannister filter or yu can borrow one from someone nearby, maybe even your lfs if you know them well.

Habib -

Thanks for responding. It's not easy dealing with problems with a new product and I respect your willingness to work with us on finding the right way to use it. As for a FW count estimate, my best guess is one to two thousand but I could be way off, kind of like trying to estimate numbers of anti-war protesters .. I'm attaching a picture of the reef before treatment. The reddish brown area on the lower right front glass is a cluster of FWs, there was a similar sized cluster on the sand in back of the rocks. Maybe 12x8 cm. in area for each cluster, and a scattering more on rocks. The sandbed was otherwise clear, and no matting on rocks. I, of course, siphoned everything visible off before treatment, and had been siphoning it off every few days for several weeks beforehand, but they reaccumulated within 24 hours each time, so clearly there were more hiding in the rocks and I don't know how to estimate those. After siphoning off everything I could and then dosing I saw dead worms floating in the water column, certainly not clouds of them, but enough to easily see a few pretty much anywhere you looked and that is in a 155 gal tank so I'm sure it added up.