How to catch a fish without removing 400 pounds of rock. (Anesthesia)

Jk5 · 10/16/2009, 03:26 PM

Many times you whished to catch a fish and this is an impossible job wihtout removing a lot of pounds of rock...
This is an experiment with a "secret" anesthesia, theorically "reef safe", to aply into the tank for sleeping fishes and catch the inhabitant you wish.
Any idea whitch anesthesia is reefsafe with no effects against invertebrates and corals?

http://translate.google.es/translate...hl=es&ie=UTF-8

tatuvaaj · 10/16/2009, 04:35 PM

That product seems to be (?) based on clove oil which is widely used fish anesthetic, both in science and aquaculture.

Clove oil seems to be reasonable safe with invertebrates (I found data for corals and prawns) at moderate amounts and short exposure times.

Still, I wouldn't use it unless absolutely necessary

More information:

Boyer et al. Effects of the fish anesthetic, clove oil (eugenol), on coral health and growth. Journal of Experimental Marine Biology and Ecology (2009) vol. 369 (1) pp. 53-57

Soltani et al. Acute Toxicity and Anesthetic Effects of Clove Oil in Penaeus semisulcatus under Various Water Quality Conditions. Aquaculture International (2004) vol. 12 (4) pp. 457-466

Seol et al. Clove oil as an anaesthetic for common octopus (Octopus minor, Sasaki). Aquaculture Research (2007) vol. 38 (1) pp. 45-49

KarlBob · 10/16/2009, 04:38 PM

Wow. I don't know about that operation. Personally, I would worry that a dose strong enough to sedate the largest fishes in a tank might be an overdose for the smallest fishes. I suppose dosing might be easier in an aquaculture setting, where all the fish in a tank could be approximately the same size, or at least the same species.

Jk5 · 10/17/2009, 06:55 AM

Hello tatu...

Eugenol (clove oil) has a fast induction time of less a minute and eugenol has effect against invertebrates and corals...
Invertebrates euthanasia could be with a dosage of 2ml/20liters of eugenol...
A normal dosage of eugenol for small fishes might be 1ml/20 liters.
Corals might be sure at 0,5 ppm but with 5 ppm corals would have undesirable effects.
I´m sure that product is not based on Eugenol (clove oil).
This is my research about Eugenol (clove oil)... I´m Alcoy.
http://translate.google.es/translate...hl=es&ie=UTF-8

In this case for catching the fishes in reef safe mode the dosage of this "secret" anesthesia was alredy 1 ml/100 liters...
snails, shrimps, and other invertebrates dont fall in anesthesia... (eugenol has anesthesia effect on crustaceans)
The induction time was already ten minutes, more or less (I have not the exact time).

tatuvaaj · 10/17/2009, 07:24 AM

Jk5,

You are right, the product is 50% isoeugenol

The other 50% is a solvent.

We are talking about AQUI-S, yes?

Jk5 · 10/17/2009, 07:32 AM

Thanks tatu for your answers.

I dont know it tatu.
The only anesthesia about I made a research was eugenol (clove oil).
I dont have knowledge about other anesthesia compounds.

I dont like the "secrets"...
And I try to guess it...

We have:

dosage 1ml/100liters
induction time already 10 minutes, more or less
No anesthesia effect against invertebrates

Eric the half-bee · 10/17/2009, 07:57 AM

I understand your pain(no pun meant). I had to catch a pearlscale BF in my tank last spring and ended up removing half the rockwork at night and partitioning the tank to catch him. It was a pain but I would be leary of adding drugs to the tank.

Jk5 · 10/17/2009, 08:27 AM

IMO than Eric...
I dont apologyse for the use of anesthesia drugs into the display tank...
This is a theorycal talk.

Tatu...
AquiS eliminated...
AquiS has effect on other inhabitants diferent of fishes...
http://www.aqui-s.com/

raul leon · 10/17/2009, 09:44 AM

another idea is look where the fish sleep ,and turn on the lights of the tank later in the night . i do this one time, the fish dont see nothing for minutes ,and the other day the other fishes looks like nothing .sorry for my english .

tatuvaaj · 10/17/2009, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jk5

Tatu...
AquiS eliminated...
AquiS has effect on other inhabitants diferent of fishes...

Oh, I should have read the thread more carefully, I thought it was known what product was used

Who is this person who has developed the anaesthetic?

Jk5 · 10/17/2009, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tatuvaaj

Oh, I should have read the thread more carefully, I thought it was known what product was used

Who is this person who has developed the anaesthetic?

we should search among the drugs available for a professional veterinary expert in aquaculture who is the person who has developed it ...
The assistance of veterinarians of the forum is required.

Jk5 · 10/17/2009, 10:53 AM

Another clue like said Karlbob is that the drug must be good for largest and smallest fishes without meaning overdosing for smallest fishes.

Jk5 · 10/18/2009, 04:09 AM

Any veterinary?
Etomidate might be the drug we are searching?
Does etomidate acomplish all the clues we said before?

tatuvaaj · 10/18/2009, 05:09 AM

Jk5,

Why is this secret? Can't you just ask what the chemical is?

I'm sure most reef aquarists would be unwilling to add any "secret sauce" to anesthetize their fishes in a reef aquarium…

And besides, the active ingredients would have to be listed if it is to be sold commercially.

Jk5 · 10/18/2009, 05:18 AM

I assume if it is a new drug or receipe based on an old drug, it needs administrative and legal conditions for comercialitation (and a lot of money).
That is an impossible for a hobbyst...
It might not be comercializated at legal conditions...
I cant ask to the person who developed the product because he doesnt want to say the product...
I dont mind that...
I dont apologyse for the use of anesthesia drugs at the display...
But I love the knowlegdment...

billsreef · 10/18/2009, 11:10 AM

The only fish anesthetic being used on fish that I am aware of is the old standard MS-222. Dosage rates are very species specific, as well as size specific. I would expect the same for any other anesthetic.

Jk5 · 10/18/2009, 01:28 PM

you are right billsreef, that anesthesia (Ms222-tricaine-Finquel) is size dependient...

One of the clues I am thinking about the group etomidate-metomidate is because this drug (hypnotic non barbituric) is non high dependient of size weight.

http://ddr.nal.usda.gov/dspace/bitst...ND23330866.pdf

"The minimum concentration of metomidate producing desirable anesthetic properties was 6 ppm. At this concentration, acceptable induction and recovery times were observed in catfish ranging from 3 to 810 g average body weight.

tatuvaaj · 10/18/2009, 01:47 PM

Here is nice summary: http://ces3.ca.uky.edu/westkentuckya...quaculture.pdf

Here's the list:
MS-222
Benzocaine
Quinaldine
2-Phenoxyethanol
Metomidate
Clove oil (eugenol + isoeugenol + etc)
Aqui-S(isoeugenol)

Jk5 · 10/20/2009, 07:39 AM

Thank you tatu.

2 interesting links about the anaesthetic drug metomidate.

http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/.../ucm164104.htm
http://www.drugs.com/vet/aquacalm-can.html

shirley386 · 10/20/2009, 10:21 AM

Not to change the subject so drastically, but I have talked to several people who have used a small fish hook successfully. The last one I talked to a couple of weeks ago said he went to Dick's Sporting Goods and bought the smallest trout hook he could find. He said he found a barbless hook. I have also seen that others simply filed the barb off or bent it down with needle nosed pliers. He just got a bucket of tank water and started fishing with bits of shrimp. The problem was to keep the unwanted fish away from the hook long enough for the target fish to get to it. When he caught a fish he put it in the bucket until he caught the target fish. He said it didn't take quite 5 minutes before he was done. The next day all the fish were fine.

I remember sitting in front of a tank for hours with a net trying to catch a fish. Next time I'll give this a try.

billsreef · 10/20/2009, 12:11 PM

Some interesting links on the stuff. It's available in the US from Western Chemical, which is also one of the suppliers of MS-222.

skanderson · 10/20/2009, 03:22 PM

i would be surprised if etomidate is available over the counter, and if it is it shouldnt be. also i would never trust some secret formula to anesthetize my fish and keep every other life form alive and well. if it is eugenol you should be able to id it by the smell.

Eric the half-bee · 10/21/2009, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skanderson

i would be surprised if etomidate is available over the counter, and if it is it shouldnt be. also i would never trust some secret formula to anesthetize my fish and keep every other life form alive and well. if it is eugenol you should be able to id it by the smell.

You are correct on the availability of etomidate . It's a general anesthetic and even though not controlled as Pentothal , ketamine or now propofol are (thanks to Michael jacksons private MD), it's a drug not applicable outside of anesthesia .

tatuvaaj · 11/04/2009, 12:31 AM

Jk5,

Any news? Has the product been used by more aquarists?

Jk5 · 11/05/2009, 02:06 AM

No more news...
Only the experiment I talked above.
I think this product cant be comercializated at legal conditions.
If the product will be used by more aquarists it would be trouhght a hidden market trouhgt private messages...
I have not got more cases of people using the product...
I think there is not a hidden market of the product yet.
If I see new cases I´ll talk the experiences.

10/16/2009, 03:26 PM	#1
Jk5 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 319	How to catch a fish without removing 400 pounds of rock. (Anesthesia) Many times you whished to catch a fish and this is an impossible job wihtout removing a lot of pounds of rock... This is an experiment with a "secret" anesthesia, theorically "reef safe", to aply into the tank for sleeping fishes and catch the inhabitant you wish. Any idea whitch anesthesia is reefsafe with no effects against invertebrates and corals? http://translate.google.es/translate...hl=es&ie=UTF-8

10/16/2009, 04:35 PM	#2
tatuvaaj Nutrient Police Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Tampere, Finland Posts: 1,203	That product seems to be (?) based on clove oil which is widely used fish anesthetic, both in science and aquaculture. Clove oil seems to be reasonable safe with invertebrates (I found data for corals and prawns) at moderate amounts and short exposure times. Still, I wouldn't use it unless absolutely necessary More information: Boyer et al. Effects of the fish anesthetic, clove oil (eugenol), on coral health and growth. Journal of Experimental Marine Biology and Ecology (2009) vol. 369 (1) pp. 53-57 Soltani et al. Acute Toxicity and Anesthetic Effects of Clove Oil in Penaeus semisulcatus under Various Water Quality Conditions. Aquaculture International (2004) vol. 12 (4) pp. 457-466 Seol et al. Clove oil as an anaesthetic for common octopus (Octopus minor, Sasaki). Aquaculture Research (2007) vol. 38 (1) pp. 45-49 __________________ Tatu Vaajalahti Tampere, Finland Current Tank Info: 240 gal + 50 gal sump,SDSB,LR,ATB Medium, 2x250W HQI + actinic,Balling

10/16/2009, 04:38 PM	#3
KarlBob Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,763	Wow. I don't know about that operation. Personally, I would worry that a dose strong enough to sedate the largest fishes in a tank might be an overdose for the smallest fishes. I suppose dosing might be easier in an aquaculture setting, where all the fish in a tank could be approximately the same size, or at least the same species. __________________ Later, KarlBob Current Tank Info: 20 - Yellow Watchman/pistol, Pajama Cardinal, Lawnmower Blenny ,GSP, Kenya tree, zoas & palys, shrooms, frogspawn. 80 - 2 Green Chromis, Randall's goby & pistol shrimp, 2 Ocellaris, Duncans, Xenia, toadstools, Anthelia, Echino, zoas/palys, fr

10/17/2009, 06:55 AM	#4
Jk5 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 319	Hello tatu... Eugenol (clove oil) has a fast induction time of less a minute and eugenol has effect against invertebrates and corals... Invertebrates euthanasia could be with a dosage of 2ml/20liters of eugenol... A normal dosage of eugenol for small fishes might be 1ml/20 liters. Corals might be sure at 0,5 ppm but with 5 ppm corals would have undesirable effects. I´m sure that product is not based on Eugenol (clove oil). This is my research about Eugenol (clove oil)... I´m Alcoy. http://translate.google.es/translate...hl=es&ie=UTF-8 In this case for catching the fishes in reef safe mode the dosage of this "secret" anesthesia was alredy 1 ml/100 liters... snails, shrimps, and other invertebrates dont fall in anesthesia... (eugenol has anesthesia effect on crustaceans) The induction time was already ten minutes, more or less (I have not the exact time). Last edited by Jk5; 10/17/2009 at 07:26 AM.

10/17/2009, 07:24 AM	#5
tatuvaaj Nutrient Police Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Tampere, Finland Posts: 1,203	Jk5, You are right, the product is 50% isoeugenol The other 50% is a solvent. We are talking about AQUI-S, yes? __________________ Tatu Vaajalahti Tampere, Finland Current Tank Info: 240 gal + 50 gal sump,SDSB,LR,ATB Medium, 2x250W HQI + actinic,Balling

10/17/2009, 07:32 AM	#6
Jk5 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 319	Thanks tatu for your answers. I dont know it tatu. The only anesthesia about I made a research was eugenol (clove oil). I dont have knowledge about other anesthesia compounds. I dont like the "secrets"... And I try to guess it... We have: dosage 1ml/100liters induction time already 10 minutes, more or less No anesthesia effect against invertebrates Last edited by Jk5; 10/17/2009 at 07:38 AM.

10/17/2009, 07:57 AM	#7
Eric the half-bee Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Right here, right now. Posts: 340	I understand your pain(no pun meant). I had to catch a pearlscale BF in my tank last spring and ended up removing half the rockwork at night and partitioning the tank to catch him. It was a pain but I would be leary of adding drugs to the tank. __________________ There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism-Teddy Roosevelt I'm gonna be on you like ugly on a Baldwin brother-RD Mercer Current Tank Info: Semi agressive reef

10/17/2009, 08:27 AM	#8
Jk5 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 319	IMO than Eric... I dont apologyse for the use of anesthesia drugs into the display tank... This is a theorycal talk. Tatu... AquiS eliminated... AquiS has effect on other inhabitants diferent of fishes... http://www.aqui-s.com/

10/17/2009, 09:44 AM	#9
raul leon Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 21	another idea is look where the fish sleep ,and turn on the lights of the tank later in the night . i do this one time, the fish dont see nothing for minutes ,and the other day the other fishes looks like nothing .sorry for my english . Last edited by raul leon; 10/17/2009 at 09:53 AM.

10/17/2009, 10:53 AM	#12
Jk5 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 319	Another clue like said Karlbob is that the drug must be good for largest and smallest fishes without meaning overdosing for smallest fishes. Last edited by Jk5; 10/17/2009 at 11:46 AM.

10/18/2009, 04:09 AM	#13
Jk5 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 319	Any veterinary? Etomidate might be the drug we are searching? Does etomidate acomplish all the clues we said before? Last edited by Jk5; 10/18/2009 at 04:45 AM.

10/18/2009, 05:09 AM	#14
tatuvaaj Nutrient Police Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Tampere, Finland Posts: 1,203	Jk5, Why is this secret? Can't you just ask what the chemical is? I'm sure most reef aquarists would be unwilling to add any "secret sauce" to anesthetize their fishes in a reef aquarium… And besides, the active ingredients would have to be listed if it is to be sold commercially. __________________ Tatu Vaajalahti Tampere, Finland Current Tank Info: 240 gal + 50 gal sump,SDSB,LR,ATB Medium, 2x250W HQI + actinic,Balling

10/18/2009, 05:18 AM	#15
Jk5 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 319	I assume if it is a new drug or receipe based on an old drug, it needs administrative and legal conditions for comercialitation (and a lot of money). That is an impossible for a hobbyst... It might not be comercializated at legal conditions... I cant ask to the person who developed the product because he doesnt want to say the product... I dont mind that... I dont apologyse for the use of anesthesia drugs at the display... But I love the knowlegdment...

10/18/2009, 11:10 AM	#16
billsreef Moderator 10 & Over Club Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 27,360	The only fish anesthetic being used on fish that I am aware of is the old standard MS-222. Dosage rates are very species specific, as well as size specific. I would expect the same for any other anesthetic. __________________ Bill "LOL, well I have no brain apparently. " - dc (Debi) Current Tank Info: Far too many tanks according to my wife, LOL.

10/18/2009, 01:28 PM	#17
Jk5 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 319	you are right billsreef, that anesthesia (Ms222-tricaine-Finquel) is size dependient... One of the clues I am thinking about the group etomidate-metomidate is because this drug (hypnotic non barbituric) is non high dependient of size weight. http://ddr.nal.usda.gov/dspace/bitst...ND23330866.pdf "The minimum concentration of metomidate producing desirable anesthetic properties was 6 ppm. At this concentration, acceptable induction and recovery times were observed in catfish ranging from 3 to 810 g average body weight.

10/18/2009, 01:47 PM	#18
tatuvaaj Nutrient Police Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Tampere, Finland Posts: 1,203	Here is nice summary: http://ces3.ca.uky.edu/westkentuckya...quaculture.pdf Here's the list: MS-222 Benzocaine Quinaldine 2-Phenoxyethanol Metomidate Clove oil (eugenol + isoeugenol + etc) Aqui-S(isoeugenol) __________________ Tatu Vaajalahti Tampere, Finland Current Tank Info: 240 gal + 50 gal sump,SDSB,LR,ATB Medium, 2x250W HQI + actinic,Balling

10/20/2009, 07:39 AM	#19
Jk5 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 319	Thank you tatu. 2 interesting links about the anaesthetic drug metomidate. http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/.../ucm164104.htm http://www.drugs.com/vet/aquacalm-can.html

10/20/2009, 10:21 AM	#20
shirley386 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 79	Not to change the subject so drastically, but I have talked to several people who have used a small fish hook successfully. The last one I talked to a couple of weeks ago said he went to Dick's Sporting Goods and bought the smallest trout hook he could find. He said he found a barbless hook. I have also seen that others simply filed the barb off or bent it down with needle nosed pliers. He just got a bucket of tank water and started fishing with bits of shrimp. The problem was to keep the unwanted fish away from the hook long enough for the target fish to get to it. When he caught a fish he put it in the bucket until he caught the target fish. He said it didn't take quite 5 minutes before he was done. The next day all the fish were fine. I remember sitting in front of a tank for hours with a net trying to catch a fish. Next time I'll give this a try.

10/20/2009, 12:11 PM	#21
billsreef Moderator 10 & Over Club Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 27,360	Some interesting links on the stuff. It's available in the US from Western Chemical, which is also one of the suppliers of MS-222. __________________ Bill "LOL, well I have no brain apparently. " - dc (Debi) Current Tank Info: Far too many tanks according to my wife, LOL.

10/20/2009, 03:22 PM	#22
skanderson Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: baraboo,wi Posts: 121	i would be surprised if etomidate is available over the counter, and if it is it shouldnt be. also i would never trust some secret formula to anesthetize my fish and keep every other life form alive and well. if it is eugenol you should be able to id it by the smell.

11/04/2009, 12:31 AM	#24
tatuvaaj Nutrient Police Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Tampere, Finland Posts: 1,203	Jk5, Any news? Has the product been used by more aquarists? __________________ Tatu Vaajalahti Tampere, Finland Current Tank Info: 240 gal + 50 gal sump,SDSB,LR,ATB Medium, 2x250W HQI + actinic,Balling

11/05/2009, 02:06 AM	#25
Jk5 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 319	No more news... Only the experiment I talked above. I think this product cant be comercializated at legal conditions. If the product will be used by more aquarists it would be trouhght a hidden market trouhgt private messages... I have not got more cases of people using the product... I think there is not a hidden market of the product yet. If I see new cases I´ll talk the experiences.