Ich help/question

[E.intheC]

Hello fellow RC'ers.

It's been almost 3 years since my fish have had ich, and I was a complete newby then. Now I'm pretty rusty. I think I figured out the cause, but I'd like to get a few opinions on the best treatment going forward.

I have a 72 bow (tank below) with only 2 fish - a pair of clownfish. They're both swimming and acting pretty normal, but they have a clear case of Ich.

Luckily they're eating and I've been feeding a variety of food soaked with selcon twice a day. I'm doing water changes of 10% weekly, and will start going with 20% weekly. (Man that's a lotta water on a 72).

The ich was at its worst about 3 days ago, and since then it's been getting better by appearance.

I have a hospital tank made up of water from the tank, heater/powerhead/and air bubbler set up.

Should I send the fish to the hospital tank? I'd rather keep them in the 72 as I'm afraid I'll stress my fish out due to reduced water volume and the whole 'catching process'.

Obviously in the display tank I can't add copper or induce hypo salinity, but feel the overall water params will be more stable in the main tank.

Thank you for your input.

[Ruskin]

if you truly only have 2 fish then I would remove them both to the QT and treat them for ich. You won't ever rid your system of Ich if you dont have it devoid of fish for approx. 6 weeks (im sure there is info available that can confirm the time frame here on RC). Seeing as you only have two fish now is the time to deal with it rather then having a tank full and having to have multiple qt's setup.

Clowns are on the easier side of fish to catch. Drain some water until scooping them out is easy enough, I usually just usher mine into a jar and then move them when I need too. They wont be stressed by the tank size as they can and do stay in much smaller areas quite happily. If you have a 20g or so they will be more then fine for the 6 or so weeks it takes.

[E.intheC]

Thanks ruskin. I think you're right about the 6 weeks time frame. Could be closer to 8 weeks.

And yes, there are only the 2 clowns. I'll end up moving them to the QT setup and monitor their progress

[Ruskin]

Good news. Atleast while you are doing treatment you are able to kill two birds with one stone and have the tank fishless as well. Good luck, let us know how it goes.
oh. and you're welcome

[wooden_reefer]

"Obviously in the display tank I can't add copper or induce hypo salinity, but feel the overall water params will be more stable in the main tank."

The key is to make sure that the water params in the QT is as good as those in the DT, to the fish. Nitrate is next to harmless to fish, so in a QT you need nitrification, not denitrification. Nitrification is very easy to achieve in cycling. The first step is to have cycled the medium for QT very well in advance.

[E.intheC]

Very true for a QT, but I'm talking about a hospital tank where you can't have any live rock or sand bc the copper will kill the live rock's inhabitants. I'm just going to have to rely on water changes and close monitoring of params.

[wooden_reefer]

Originally Posted by E.intheC

Very true for a QT, but I'm talking about a hospital tank where you can't have any live rock or sand bc the copper will kill the live rock's inhabitants. I'm just going to have to rely on water changes and close monitoring of params.

Copper will not harm nitrification bacteria much. Nitrification is not much affected by copper.

There are a few problems with LR. It is bulky and unwieldy to filter thru or by in a compact setup. Then if you have growth of higher lives on it, dieoff will polute the water.

I do not use LR in QT. I use either polyester floss or crushed coral/oyster shell in QT for fish.

I always cycle the medium for QT very well in advance.

No you do not need to rely on WC for the eight or more weeks needed to eradicate ich. Most people don't have the endurance to adhere to eight weeks of WC.

I seldom change water in QT during the eight weeks of QT to eradicate ich.

[Chris27]

Any calcareous material (sand, rock, coral skeletons) in a QT treated with copper will make maintaining a therapeutic copper level next to impossible. The copper will bind with carbonates, quickly lowering the level of ionic copper.

As for water changes - it's best to test the water daily and change the water when testing indicates it's time to do so, ie. measurable levels of ammonia or nitrite. Prime or Amquel will help to detoxify these, but water changes remove it very quickly. A 50% water change on a 10 or 20 gallon QT should really only take a few min, and your fish will love you for it.

[wooden_reefer]

Originally Posted by Chris27

Any calcareous material (sand, rock, coral skeletons) in a QT treated with copper will make maintaining a therapeutic copper level next to impossible. The copper will bind with carbonates, quickly lowering the level of ionic copper.

My experience is that this is not true, or at least this has not been true for me.

In fact, I prefer the instability of straight copper in a tank with calcareous material. Old books suggest that pulses of higher concentration is as safe and effective as a lower constant dose.

On the other hand, the logic behind maintaining a constant level of copper is reasonable. So I don't want to make this a major point of debate. Do whatever you prefer but I would caution against too rigid an interpretation.

I have dosed straight copper periodically to achieve between 0.1 to 0.4 ppm for decades and have not have a case of ich for over 25 years. I think may be doing this for a long enough time is the reason. I will be more keen to maintain a constant level of cooper until I fail once.

Even in human medicine, the issue of compliance is important. What is easy will be done more faithfully. The theoretical best may not be the actual best if compliance is lax.

[Chris27]

Originally Posted by wooden_reefer

My experience is that this is not true, or at least this has not been true for me.

In fact, I prefer the instability of straight copper in a tank with calcareous material. Old books suggest that pulses of higher concentration is as safe and effective as a lower constant dose.

On the other hand, the logic behind maintaining a constant level of copper is reasonable. So I don't want to make this a major point of debate. Do whatever you prefer but I would caution against too rigid an interpretation.

I have dosed straight copper periodically to achieve between 0.1 to 0.4 ppm for decades and have not have a case of ich for over 25 years. I think may be doing this for a long enough time is the reason. I will be more keen to maintain a constant level of cooper until I fail once.

Even in human medicine, the issue of compliance is important. What is easy will be done more faithfully. The theoretical best may not be the actual best if compliance is lax.

Which part isn't true? Are you are saying copper isn't absorbed by calcareous material? It that is the case, we could remove our inverts and coral and dose the DT, when done we could simply remove the copper from the tank by doing a 100% water change...

The parasite is attacked by copper in the free swimming stage of the life-cycle. So, lets say that on the day the tomites hatch, your ever changing copper level is exceptionally low and the theronts go about their business of finding a host, unaffected by a low copper concentration...

[wooden_reefer]

Originally Posted by Chris27

Any calcareous material (sand, rock, coral skeletons) in a QT treated with copper will make maintaining a therapeutic copper level next to impossible.

The part about the impossibility of therapeutic copper level is not true, IME.

I would agree that perhaps that it is superior, from a theoretical perspective, to maintain a constant level of copper.

But in practice, one has to consider the motivation to comply and the length of compliance, as in human medicine.

Pulsing copper in a calcareous environment is easier and has worked for me for over 25 years.

As I have said, I don't want to make this a strong point of debate.

[E.intheC]

interesting discussion. I'm going to with hold my opinions until I've thought about it a bit.

On a side note, My fish's Ich is about 97% gone so I'm very hesitant to put them in the hospital tank.

[Chris27]

Originally Posted by E.intheC

interesting discussion. I'm going to with hold my opinions until I've thought about it a bit.

On a side note, My fish's Ich is about 97% gone so I'm very hesitant to put them in the hospital tank.

Honestly, it may seem as though it's on the out, but unless you remove all your fish from the DT for a period of at least 6 weeks, you will never eradicate the parasite from your aquarium. The life cycle must be broken, luckily, when in the free swimming stage, the parasite only has about 24 hrs to find a host. If no host is available, the parasite will die off leaving you with a crypt free system.

[Ben_Im]

Originally Posted by E.intheC

interesting discussion. I'm going to with hold my opinions until I've thought about it a bit.

On a side note, My fish's Ich is about 97% gone so I'm very hesitant to put them in the hospital tank.

Unless you QT'd them and treated them, I'm 100% sure they still have Crypt.

Sorry, but it won't go away on its own.
If you're concerned about "stressing" your fish by catching them, that's just a personal struggle you'll have to get over. Your fish will be suffering from Crypt in the meantime.

[dwdowney]

My LFS told me that if I treat any fish with copper in a QT tank that the copper on the fishes skin will leach into the main display tank and kill my corals. I don’t believe this for a second, but I was planning on QTing all my fish for at least two weeks before letting them enter my system.

[dwdowney]

My LFS told me that if I treat any fish with copper in a QT tank that the copper on the fishes skin will leach into the main display tank and kill my corals. I don’t believe this for a second, but I was planning on QTing all my fish for at least two weeks before letting them enter my system.

[krowleey]

Originally Posted by dwdowney

My LFS told me that if I treat any fish with copper in a QT tank that the copper on the fishes skin will leach into the main display tank and kill my corals. I don’t believe this for a second, but I was planning on QTing all my fish for at least two weeks before letting them enter my system.

your LFS doesn't know what they are talking about in the least way.

[E.intheC]

I agree with the above.

As for being 'concerned' or 'afraid' about stressing the fish- I was more worried about that when they were completely covered in ich and IMO close to death as it was. I have no problems or qualms about catching them now.

Also, although I feel the fish do still have ich, I don't feel you can ever completely get rid of it. Ich doesn't just randomly show up because your fish are stressed. It has to come from somewhere in your system.

[loverreef]

The cycle of ich is 6 to 8 weeks. Some say 4 to 6 weeks.
If you set up a UV filter properly in most cases it will take care of your ich over time and keep it from coming back. You want to use it as a clairfier, so adjust your flow based on the watts as directed by manufacture.

I have a huge display tank where I cannot take out my fish. When I first set up my tank up one of the show tangs had ich, I was told it was not ich and it would go away over time. Yeah it went away alright. Went all over the other fish. I thought I was going to lose them all. Having spent so much money on my fish I was very worried. My lfs asked if I had my UV filter on the tank, which I didn't because I needed a new bulb.

order bulb ich was off the fish in a few days and has not come back in over a year.

Hope this helps

[Chris27]

Originally Posted by dwdowney

My LFS told me that if I treat any fish with copper in a QT tank that the copper on the fishes skin will leach into the main display tank and kill my corals. I don’t believe this for a second, but I was planning on QTing all my fish for at least two weeks before letting them enter my system.

That statement should make it's way to a top ten list somewhere -

[wooden_reefer]

Originally Posted by dwdowney

My LFS told me that if I treat any fish with copper in a QT tank that the copper on the fishes skin will leach into the main display tank and kill my corals. I don’t believe this for a second, but I was planning on QTing all my fish for at least two weeks before letting them enter my system.

The copper in the WATER will deposit on calcareous materials, such as corals and live rock. I believe the deposit is copper carbonate, but precisely what it is likely doesn't matter much.

Will the deposit leech out? I think it will not unless the ph changes significantly. Many people think otherwise. If you put all the copper treated LR in the sump, and you remember which LR, would it still cause problems? I don't know.

Will many inverts' direct contact with copper carbonate harm them? This is also a consideration. I also don't know.

I know that the prevailing thought is that copper depoist on LR is not a good idea. I don't know enough to refute or affirm this thought.

I'd avoid using copper in DT intended later for inverts, except shrimps and crabs.

[crocodilhunter]

E.IntheC, hey buddy I just wanted to tell you that over the last year I have had several fish come up with Ich and most of them continued to eat, so I thought I will leave him and see how he does because he is still eating. Well, everyone of them died. I now quarantine any new fish I get and currently have a yellow eyed tang in QT and he has been there for 2 weeks, eating strong looking great. I woke up this morning to him absolutely covered in ich, so I am going to treat him with copper. This will be my first copper treatment so I hope it goes well but since I have never had a fish survive after getting ich (and there have been quite a few) I am gonna treat this one. Plus I am going to look into the uv light because a buddy of mine said he put one on his DT and he hasn't had ich since (15 years!). Good luck and I hope yours pull through!

[RBU1]

Originally Posted by dwdowney

My LFS told me that if I treat any fish with copper in a QT tank that the copper on the fishes skin will leach into the main display tank and kill my corals. I don’t believe this for a second, but I was planning on QTing all my fish for at least two weeks before letting them enter my system.

Find another fish store FAST....

[RBU1]

Originally Posted by E.intheC

I agree with the above.

As for being 'concerned' or 'afraid' about stressing the fish- I was more worried about that when they were completely covered in ich and IMO close to death as it was. I have no problems or qualms about catching them now.

Also, although I feel the fish do still have ich, I don't feel you can ever completely get rid of it. Ich doesn't just randomly show up because your fish are stressed. It has to come from somewhere in your system.

If you follow proper QT for everything wet that enters your tank why cant you keep ich out?