elegance came off shell - Page 2

oddballs · 08/04/2009, 11:07 AM

I do not think that this book is based on folklore,legends or myths.Eric bornemen has put many hours into studying these animals not just in aquariums but also in the ocean.This is what he does for a living .I am not saying you are wrong or trying to offend either.And I honestly do not care if this is the biggest site of its kind in the universe,I have heard and seen some really stupid things said and done on this site.The funny thing is that he said that less than 5% of these animals survive after polyp bailout?So did he just make that number up? It looks to me like there have been some kind of work or a study was done on this? J.E.N Veron is one of the worlds biggest authorites on corals,I do not think he is gonna write the forward of a book and put his name on it if it were based on folklore?

elegance coral · 08/04/2009, 09:24 PM

I did not intend to offend anyone that still idolizes Borenman. My apologies.

We may not be using the term "polyp bailout" to describe the same condition. After reading your first post again, I noticed that the data you quoted is very similar to a process that a species of SPS coral goes through. It is not the same process that Elegance corals go through. In the SPS coral, the polyps separate while still on the coral. Once detached, they no longer resemble the polyp while it was living on the coral. The tentacles are no longer detectable, and filiments develop. The filiments are unknown structures. Maybe mesenterial filiments?????? Elegance corals go through no such metamorphoses. All of the living tissue remains intact, they do not produce filiments, and they don't settle to form a new coral. In the SPS coral this is clearly a form of reproduction and it coincides with the corals normal breeding season. It's not as though the coral simply detaches form the skeleton like we see in Elegance corals. It's much more complicated than that.

chi3f · 08/05/2009, 02:33 AM

crap sry. there goes a nice 9 head elegance!!!! all but 1 head is left attached!

oddballs · 08/05/2009, 11:48 AM

Elegance coral you are a REALLY funny guy!! I do not have to idolize someone just because I quoted there book! But I decided that since you have ALL the info I need I am just waiting on your book to come out,when is the release date on it?Also it takes a lot more than that to offend me.You think what you want and I will do the same.

1DeR9_3Hy · 08/06/2009, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by elegance coral
This is a nice theory that's been around forever, and I do wish it were true. Unfortunately, there is no evidence to back up these claims. Corals don't lay down calcium carbonate unless the area responsible for this task is isolated from the surrounding ocean water. Coral larvae do not begin producing calcium carbonate until after they have settled and created a bond with an appropriate substrate. A bailed out polyp doesn't have this ability.

High flow rates can cause polyp bailout especially in LPS corals like Elegance. All it takes is one small portion of the polyp to be pulled off the skeleton by excessive flow and the seal is broken. Sea water can then directly enter the area where calcification takes place and disrupt the whole process. Eventually the polyp simply falls off.

This is not a survival tactic. We are on the largest site of this kind in the world. If anyone has evidence to suggest I'm wrong, I would gladly admit my error. Any photos of a bailed out polyp producing a new skeleton or a link to a reputable scientific study that documents the process of bailed out polyps resettling in a new location will do. Just one well documented case will do.

No offence to you Oddballs or anyone else, but aquarium authors parroting old myths, legends, and folklore isn't exactly what I would call sound scientific evidence.

Good info, but we would be parrots our selves if we didn't have a source for this info. Care to share?

aalhait · 08/07/2009, 07:28 PM

This has happened to me before... I had a brain detach from the skeleton and float free! If fed, it should have grown another skeleton, but it died a couple of months later since it kept floating and pumping into things.

Rare indeed!

NateDizzle · 08/30/2009, 07:04 AM

i've heard once it detaches from its skeleton, odds of survival are pretty slim, i'm really looking into getting an elegance coral also but am fearful that i'll be fighting a losing battle

deeper moods · 08/30/2009, 11:56 AM

I saved one elegance coral that was dieing from a LFS, I took it home to see if it would survive. It elegance pretty much did survive but it only on the far end of its shell. Its been very nicely open for 6mnths now. I hope it does not detach it self from its shell.

NeilFox · 09/01/2009, 09:10 AM

Stranger things have happened. I started in this hobby over 20 years ago and at that time everyone was obsessed with making sps species grow (propegatation was in its infancy). Still the same today! The difference is that anyone can do it with SPS and enough money. LPS is another story and a bit more of a mystery. It was common for Elegance corals to detach from their skeletons with insufficient strontium ( no survival stories however). Back in the day that was a major additive, it seems as though things have changed though. Please pardon my ignorance, I am following this thread with intrest. Very interesting.

Neil

thefreshfish · 09/07/2009, 12:14 AM

weird

lostintheocean · 11/06/2009, 10:03 AM

I had a frogspawn bail out a while ago. it has some babie heads sprouting when this occured. I put the baile dout polyps on a shell covered with a torm poece of Lufa rubber baned down. The baby sprouts have started getting larger. Some of the polyps floated around adn disappeared. The one I have under the mesh lufa piece is now HUGE, but i still do not see any evidence od calcium growth. The few LPC corals I have do not seel to grow very well though. My other corals do great. Well anyway this polyp has been secured for about a year now, it has great color adn when expanded is just smaller then a baseball. I am still hoping to see it grow a new skeletion......

PogoMonogo · 11/06/2009, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elegance coral

This is a nice theory that's been around forever, and I do wish it were true. Unfortunately, there is no evidence to back up these claims. Corals don't lay down calcium carbonate unless the area responsible for this task is isolated from the surrounding ocean water. Coral larvae do not begin producing calcium carbonate until after they have settled and created a bond with an appropriate substrate. A bailed out polyp doesn't have this ability.

High flow rates can cause polyp bailout especially in LPS corals like Elegance. All it takes is one small portion of the polyp to be pulled off the skeleton by excessive flow and the seal is broken. Sea water can then directly enter the area where calcification takes place and disrupt the whole process. Eventually the polyp simply falls off.

This is not a survival tactic. We are on the largest site of this kind in the world. If anyone has evidence to suggest I'm wrong, I would gladly admit my error. Any photos of a bailed out polyp producing a new skeleton or a link to a reputable scientific study that documents the process of bailed out polyps resettling in a new location will do. Just one well documented case will do.

No offence to you Oddballs or anyone else, but aquarium authors parroting old myths, legends, and folklore isn't exactly what I would call sound scientific evidence.

I have 3 torch coral "babies" in my aquarium that began as polyps that drifted and are now attached to live rock, with a full skeleton and everything.

eswgato · 11/06/2009, 11:05 AM

Hey Reefslugs you might want to read up on the cal alk and mag fourm http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1179702 it's a good guide on what mat's to get where to get them and how to mix them good luck

Bdimas · 11/06/2009, 12:20 PM

For all the people that are having bail out issues with your acans and elegance corals. What salt are you using and how often are you doing water changes? Also is your tank heavily stocked?

Dustin1300 · 11/06/2009, 10:49 PM

I would also have to agree that it can still grow a skeletal structure. Some stated that the skeletal structure would not but how do they think the polyps each started out? Take care of it and good luck!

elegance coral · 11/07/2009, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1DeR9_3Hy

Good info, but we would be parrots our selves if we didn't have a source for this info. Care to share?

Sorry I missed this post a month ago.

Very good point. Unfortunately, It's kinda hard to prove that this process doesn't take place. It's kinda like trying to prove that we're not being visited by ET, or that Bigfoot and Nessie don't exist. What we have is countless cases of polyp bail out in these corals, and no documented cases of them building a new skeleton and living happily ever after. I find it irresponsible, to say the least, for authors to downplay the significance of this problem by saying, "it's no big deal. The coral will simply grow a new skeleton". Especially when we have absolutely no evidence to support such a claim.

elegance coral · 11/07/2009, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dustin1300

I would also have to agree that it can still grow a skeletal structure. Some stated that the skeletal structure would not but how do they think the polyps each started out? Take care of it and good luck!

They start out as larvae. The larvae settle and attach to a suitable substrate, go through metamorphoses, and begin laying down calcium carbonate. A bailed out elegance coral is a mature polyp. It does not attach to a substrate, it does not go through metamorphoses, or begin laying down calcium carbonate.

elegance coral · 11/07/2009, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PogoMonogo

I have 3 torch coral "babies" in my aquarium that began as polyps that drifted and are now attached to live rock, with a full skeleton and everything.

Did you document this process?

oddballs · 11/07/2009, 03:00 PM

(Aquarium corals by eric bourneman) is one of the books that I was talking about in my post earlier in this thread.I am not gonna go re read this info but I do not think that ANYONE in this book has downplayed polyp bailout or said it was "NO big deal"I find that one of the reasons that we are all on these boards is to try and pass on info to fellow aquarist. That is what we were all doing on this thread.Sorry if I take the word of a guy that writes books, works at a university and makes his entire living off of corals.I guess I am just starstruck!!!

zeppelin · 11/07/2009, 03:22 PM

I dont know anyone who has done as much specific research into this particular coral as elegance coral has recently. No, he has not written any books about it, but has extensive hands on experience.

There are years and years of posts on many message boards speaking of polyp bailout in various lps, not just this particular coral. In all those years of going through posts, I have yet to see any pictorial documentation of a bailed out adult polyp beginning to grow a new skeletal base. It just doesn't happen.

As far as the torch mentioned above, I would venture to say it was a baby that had begun to develop as a new branch, complete with a tiny skeletal base, and broke off the main coral. It then settled and continued its development. I have had that happen several times with branching hammer coral. I glue the tiny piece to a rock and it does continue to develop, because it began as skeletal base and polyp, not a bailed out mature polyp. Same with plate corals. They 'drop' babies as part of their normal lives. Those small pieces already have a small skeletal base included and continue to grow. This is completely different from an adult polyp bailing out of its skeletal base.

elegance coral · 11/07/2009, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oddballs

(Aquarium corals by eric bourneman) is one of the books that I was talking about in my post earlier in this thread.I am not gonna go re read this info but I do not think that ANYONE in this book has downplayed polyp bailout or said it was "NO big deal"I find that one of the reasons that we are all on these boards is to try and pass on info to fellow aquarist. That is what we were all doing on this thread.Sorry if I take the word of a guy that writes books, works at a university and makes his entire living off of corals.I guess I am just starstruck!!!

I have no desire to argue about this. My whole problem with authors suggesting that this is a natural form of reproduction, or an escape tactic, is that it downplays the urgency to understand and prevent this condition. If we believe that a bailed out elegance will simply move to a new location and begin life anew, why would we concern ourselves with understanding what causes this condition and how to prevent it? I believe that it is important for people to understand that this is a death sentence for these corals, and that understanding its causes, and taking steps to prevent them, is the only chance these corals have.

1DeR9_3Hy · 11/08/2009, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elegance coral

Sorry I missed this post a month ago.

Very good point. Unfortunately, It's kinda hard to prove that this process doesn't take place. It's kinda like trying to prove that we're not being visited by ET, or that Bigfoot and Nessie don't exist. What we have is countless cases of polyp bail out in these corals, and no documented cases of them building a new skeleton and living happily ever after. I find it irresponsible, to say the least, for authors to downplay the significance of this problem by saying, "it's no big deal. The coral will simply grow a new skeleton". Especially when we have absolutely no evidence to support such a claim.

Better late than never

Ill side with your opinion on this since that's basically what i was getting at. I have yet to here of a magical skeleton re-appearing.

Bdimas · 11/08/2009, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bdimas

For all the people that are having bail out issues with your acans and elegance corals. What salt are you using and how often are you doing water changes? Also is your tank heavily stocked?

Gary Majchrzak · 11/08/2009, 06:59 PM

Bdimas- rather than ask salt brand and stocking levels you should be asking about calcium, alkalinity and magnesium levels.

elegance coral- thanks for the info.

Bdimas · 11/08/2009, 07:04 PM

Thanks Gary. So basically this happens because Ca, Alk, and Mag are too low?

Just asking because i have never heard or experienced this.

09/07/2009, 12:14 AM	#35
thefreshfish Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: MN Posts: 51	weird __________________ love sps, hate flatworms Current Tank Info: 200 custom acrylic , 50 gal sump, 8 T5's.. 40 gal. frag tank, 30 gal sump, 4 T5's . LPS/SPS

11/06/2009, 11:05 AM	#38
eswgato Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: long beach Ca Posts: 152	Hey Reefslugs you might want to read up on the cal alk and mag fourm http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1179702 it's a good guide on what mat's to get where to get them and how to mix them good luck __________________ I can't Take it back honey I Lost the receipt Current Tank Info: 55gal 2x-175w 14,000k halide and 2-96w pc'c

11/07/2009, 03:22 PM	#45
zeppelin CORA Vice President Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pickerington, OH Posts: 3,188	I dont know anyone who has done as much specific research into this particular coral as elegance coral has recently. No, he has not written any books about it, but has extensive hands on experience. There are years and years of posts on many message boards speaking of polyp bailout in various lps, not just this particular coral. In all those years of going through posts, I have yet to see any pictorial documentation of a bailed out adult polyp beginning to grow a new skeletal base. It just doesn't happen. As far as the torch mentioned above, I would venture to say it was a baby that had begun to develop as a new branch, complete with a tiny skeletal base, and broke off the main coral. It then settled and continued its development. I have had that happen several times with branching hammer coral. I glue the tiny piece to a rock and it does continue to develop, because it began as skeletal base and polyp, not a bailed out mature polyp. Same with plate corals. They 'drop' babies as part of their normal lives. Those small pieces already have a small skeletal base included and continue to grow. This is completely different from an adult polyp bailing out of its skeletal base. __________________ They call it the 'passing lane' and the 'fast lane' for a reason. If you're not doing either, GET OUT OF IT! '02 Trans Am WS6 PEACE.....from Zeppelin 300 gallon Tenacor Acrylic Peninsula tank

11/08/2009, 06:59 PM	#49
Gary Majchrzak Team RC Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 28,215	Bdimas- rather than ask salt brand and stocking levels you should be asking about calcium, alkalinity and magnesium levels. elegance coral- thanks for the info. __________________ 16 years experience with multiple types of marine aquarium systems. Current Tank Info: 72x24x30 225 gallon peninsula reef aquarium

08/04/2009, 11:07 AM	#26
oddballs Registered Member. Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Tulsa, Ok. Posts: 1,706	I do not think that this book is based on folklore,legends or myths.Eric bornemen has put many hours into studying these animals not just in aquariums but also in the ocean.This is what he does for a living .I am not saying you are wrong or trying to offend either.And I honestly do not care if this is the biggest site of its kind in the universe,I have heard and seen some really stupid things said and done on this site.The funny thing is that he said that less than 5% of these animals survive after polyp bailout?So did he just make that number up? It looks to me like there have been some kind of work or a study was done on this? J.E.N Veron is one of the worlds biggest authorites on corals,I do not think he is gonna write the forward of a book and put his name on it if it were based on folklore?

08/04/2009, 09:24 PM	#27
elegance coral Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: central Florida Posts: 2,836	I did not intend to offend anyone that still idolizes Borenman. My apologies. We may not be using the term "polyp bailout" to describe the same condition. After reading your first post again, I noticed that the data you quoted is very similar to a process that a species of SPS coral goes through. It is not the same process that Elegance corals go through. In the SPS coral, the polyps separate while still on the coral. Once detached, they no longer resemble the polyp while it was living on the coral. The tentacles are no longer detectable, and filiments develop. The filiments are unknown structures. Maybe mesenterial filiments?????? Elegance corals go through no such metamorphoses. All of the living tissue remains intact, they do not produce filiments, and they don't settle to form a new coral. In the SPS coral this is clearly a form of reproduction and it coincides with the corals normal breeding season. It's not as though the coral simply detaches form the skeleton like we see in Elegance corals. It's much more complicated than that.

08/05/2009, 02:33 AM	#28
chi3f Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 50	crap sry. there goes a nice 9 head elegance!!!! all but 1 head is left attached!

08/05/2009, 11:48 AM	#29
oddballs Registered Member. Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Tulsa, Ok. Posts: 1,706	Elegance coral you are a REALLY funny guy!! I do not have to idolize someone just because I quoted there book! But I decided that since you have ALL the info I need I am just waiting on your book to come out,when is the release date on it?Also it takes a lot more than that to offend me.You think what you want and I will do the same.

08/07/2009, 07:28 PM	#31
aalhait Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Cupertino, CA Posts: 222	This has happened to me before... I had a brain detach from the skeleton and float free! If fed, it should have grown another skeleton, but it died a couple of months later since it kept floating and pumping into things. Rare indeed!

08/30/2009, 07:04 AM	#32
NateDizzle Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 5	i've heard once it detaches from its skeleton, odds of survival are pretty slim, i'm really looking into getting an elegance coral also but am fearful that i'll be fighting a losing battle

08/30/2009, 11:56 AM	#33
deeper moods Moved On Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: los angeles Posts: 28	I saved one elegance coral that was dieing from a LFS, I took it home to see if it would survive. It elegance pretty much did survive but it only on the far end of its shell. Its been very nicely open for 6mnths now. I hope it does not detach it self from its shell.

09/01/2009, 09:10 AM	#34
NeilFox Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: HCMC Viet Nam Posts: 27	Stranger things have happened. I started in this hobby over 20 years ago and at that time everyone was obsessed with making sps species grow (propegatation was in its infancy). Still the same today! The difference is that anyone can do it with SPS and enough money. LPS is another story and a bit more of a mystery. It was common for Elegance corals to detach from their skeletons with insufficient strontium ( no survival stories however). Back in the day that was a major additive, it seems as though things have changed though. Please pardon my ignorance, I am following this thread with intrest. Very interesting. Neil

11/06/2009, 10:03 AM	#36
lostintheocean Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: deep blue Posts: 81	I had a frogspawn bail out a while ago. it has some babie heads sprouting when this occured. I put the baile dout polyps on a shell covered with a torm poece of Lufa rubber baned down. The baby sprouts have started getting larger. Some of the polyps floated around adn disappeared. The one I have under the mesh lufa piece is now HUGE, but i still do not see any evidence od calcium growth. The few LPC corals I have do not seel to grow very well though. My other corals do great. Well anyway this polyp has been secured for about a year now, it has great color adn when expanded is just smaller then a baseball. I am still hoping to see it grow a new skeletion......

11/06/2009, 12:20 PM	#39
Bdimas Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Stockton, CA Posts: 1,818	For all the people that are having bail out issues with your acans and elegance corals. What salt are you using and how often are you doing water changes? Also is your tank heavily stocked?

11/06/2009, 10:49 PM	#40
Dustin1300 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Muncie, IN Posts: 307	I would also have to agree that it can still grow a skeletal structure. Some stated that the skeletal structure would not but how do they think the polyps each started out? Take care of it and good luck!

11/07/2009, 03:00 PM	#44
oddballs Registered Member. Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Tulsa, Ok. Posts: 1,706	(Aquarium corals by eric bourneman) is one of the books that I was talking about in my post earlier in this thread.I am not gonna go re read this info but I do not think that ANYONE in this book has downplayed polyp bailout or said it was "NO big deal"I find that one of the reasons that we are all on these boards is to try and pass on info to fellow aquarist. That is what we were all doing on this thread.Sorry if I take the word of a guy that writes books, works at a university and makes his entire living off of corals.I guess I am just starstruck!!!

11/08/2009, 07:04 PM	#50
Bdimas Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Stockton, CA Posts: 1,818	Thanks Gary. So basically this happens because Ca, Alk, and Mag are too low? Just asking because i have never heard or experienced this.