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Old 11/25/2011, 09:01 PM   #1
chatyak
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Kole Tang - Scales Gone From Scratching/Rubbing?

My kole tang seemed to be scratching a couple days after cupramine was introduced to the quarantine tank, however has not done it since. I have noticed though, that what appears to be the spot where it was scratching, is now "rouged up" as you can see in the picture. It scratched itself on the "Y" portion of the pvc pipe. Just want to know if this is possible from scratching against pvc fixtures? There has been no scratching since and it is eating well.




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Old 11/25/2011, 09:43 PM   #2
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Hard to say really. That spot could be from scratching and could be developing into an infection. I also seem to remember that certain internal parasites can cause spots like that but I'm not 100% on that. I would wait until you get some sort of consensus before you treat though. Hopefully others will chime in.


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Old 11/25/2011, 11:16 PM   #3
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Currently I am treating with Cupramine and was going to use PraziPro next, but I don't want to use them at the same time - even though people have.


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Old 11/25/2011, 11:30 PM   #4
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could be bacterial


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Old 11/26/2011, 12:35 AM   #5
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How do you know if it is bacterial?


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Old 11/26/2011, 02:32 AM   #6
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Also - his mouth appears to have a tiny white-fluffy piece dangling from the top lip on the inside of the mouth. Similar to this picture I found here - except not nearly as extreme. It only has one or two strands near the top left of its mouth.

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/k...n/IMG_1441.jpg


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Old 11/26/2011, 09:20 AM   #7
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How do you know if it is bacterial?
bacterial infections are usually diagnosed by the presence of lesions on the skin. the fuzzy stuff on the mouth is probably a fungus.


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Old 11/26/2011, 12:11 PM   #8
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Also - his mouth appears to have a tiny white-fluffy piece dangling from the top lip on the inside of the mouth. Similar to this picture I found here - except not nearly as extreme. It only has one or two strands near the top left of its mouth.
After seeing this pic of his mouth, I strongly advise that you also start treating with Maracyn 1 & 2. The active ingredients in Maracyn 1 & 2 will treat a broad range of bacterial infections and even fungus. So it will cover all the bases. I've used Maracyn 1 & 2 many times before concurrently with Cupramine with no ill effects. Just be careful not to overdose! Also, be sure to test your copper levels and make sure they're up high enough because that Tang has a bad case of Ich!


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Old 11/26/2011, 03:30 PM   #9
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After seeing this pic of his mouth, I strongly advise that you also start treating with Maracyn 1 & 2. The active ingredients in Maracyn 1 & 2 will treat a broad range of bacterial infections and even fungus. So it will cover all the bases. I've used Maracyn 1 & 2 many times before concurrently with Cupramine with no ill effects. Just be careful not to overdose! Also, be sure to test your copper levels and make sure they're up high enough because that Tang has a bad case of Ich!
That is not my tang. My fish is the picture in the first post. I said I saw something similar on his mouth - but today it is no longer there and the mouth looks normal. Maybe it was a piece of leftover food. As a side note - what do you think of using PraziPro instead after the Cupramine treatment? I have that and could use it - instead of buying something else, granted it's mostly for flukes, tapeworms, etc... It also has a couple spots on the right side, but very small.

Do you think I should buy Maracyn 1/2 based on the first picture? I will upload a video soon.


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Old 11/26/2011, 05:05 PM   #10
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That is not my tang. My fish is the picture in the first post. I said I saw something similar on his mouth - but today it is no longer there and the mouth looks normal. Maybe it was a piece of leftover food. As a side note - what do you think of using PraziPro instead after the Cupramine treatment? I have that and could use it - instead of buying something else, granted it's mostly for flukes, tapeworms, etc... It also has a couple spots on the right side, but very small.

Do you think I should buy Maracyn 1/2 based on the first picture? I will upload a video soon.
Whoops! Apparently I didn't read your post as closely as I should have.

If the white stuff around his mouth has already gone away then I would hold off on the Maracyn 1 & 2. Although you may end up needing it if that spot from your first post gets worse and develops into a bacterial infection. There's just no way to be 100% certain what's causing that spot. IMO Prazi is one of the safest meds there is to use and I've used it concurrently many times with Cupramine. So, I would absolutely recommend using it, either with or after the Cupramine treatment. The potential benefits far outweigh any risks.


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Old 11/26/2011, 05:58 PM   #11
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Whoops! Apparently I didn't read your post as closely as I should have.

If the white stuff around his mouth has already gone away then I would hold off on the Maracyn 1 & 2. Although you may end up needing it if that spot from your first post gets worse and develops into a bacterial infection. There's just no way to be 100% certain what's causing that spot. IMO Prazi is one of the safest meds there is to use and I've used it concurrently many times with Cupramine. So, I would absolutely recommend using it, either with or after the Cupramine treatment. The potential benefits far outweigh any risks.

Doesn't PraziPro only treat tube/fluke/tape though? I'm not sure I understand the reason for using Prazi - if we don't know if the Kole tang has tube/flukes/tapes etc..

Or are you saying Prazipro will help with this mark on its side?


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Old 11/27/2011, 12:19 AM   #12
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Doesn't PraziPro only treat tube/fluke/tape though? I'm not sure I understand the reason for using Prazi - if we don't know if the Kole tang has tube/flukes/tapes etc..

Or are you saying Prazipro will help with this mark on its side?
Well, basically it's process of elimination. There's no saying for sure what's causing that mark/rash on your Tang. Odds are it's a bacterial infection and might have to be treated with a broad range antibiotic, such as Maracyn 1 & 2. However, there's also a chance that your fish's natural immune system can fight this infection off on it's own. That would be preferable since Maracyn 1 & 2 (and all antibiotics for that matter) aren't the safest meds to use on fish. So IMO antibiotics should only be used as a measure of last resort (i.e. when a fish looks really bad or it's obvious that you're dealing with a bacterial infection that's not going to heal on it's own.)

PraziPro treats most internal parasites/worms and there's a possibility that the mark/rash on your Tang is a secondary symptom of that. And Prazi is so safe to use that you'll find a lot of people on here use it prophylactically. So, from my way of thinking, it's best to start with the least intrusive med (Prazi) and if that doesn't solve the problem then go with something more aggressive (antibiotics). Sometimes you get lucky.


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Old 11/27/2011, 12:37 AM   #13
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Alright. I will use prazipro after the month long cupramine. Tang isn't taking to the nori. Eats frozen and flake readily though. Only eats the nori when it's churned up into bits in the water column.


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Old 11/27/2011, 12:49 AM   #14
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Alright. I will use prazipro after the month long cupramine. Tang isn't taking to the nori. Eats frozen and flake readily though. Only eats the nori when it's churned up into bits in the water column.
If that mark/rash starts looking worse, skip the Prazi and go straight to the antibiotics. Don't wait until the month-long Cupramine treatment is done either... once a bacterial infection turns ugly, it can kill fast. Also, soaking his food in a vitamin-enriched supplement such as Selcon might bolster his immune system.


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Old 11/27/2011, 01:58 AM   #15
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If that mark/rash starts looking worse, skip the Prazi and go straight to the antibiotics. Don't wait until the month-long Cupramine treatment is done either... once a bacterial infection turns ugly, it can kill fast. Also, soaking his food in a vitamin-enriched supplement such as Selcon might bolster his immune system.
I read about people having their fish die in QT with Cupramine and prazipro at the same time so I have been skeptical. I soak everything I feed the fish for about 4-5 minutes using Selcon, yes. Not sure on the "proper" soaking method - I just placed about .5ml of the liquid on the frozen food with a bit of tank water in there as well - then swirl it all around. Also add a couple drops of garlic to enhance the taste.


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Old 11/27/2011, 11:37 AM   #16
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I read about people having their fish die in QT with Cupramine and prazipro at the same time so I have been skeptical. I soak everything I feed the fish for about 4-5 minutes using Selcon, yes. Not sure on the "proper" soaking method - I just placed about .5ml of the liquid on the frozen food with a bit of tank water in there as well - then swirl it all around. Also add a couple drops of garlic to enhance the taste.
I've used Cupramine, PraziPro and Maracyn 1 & 2 concurrently many times with success. IMO & E the one you have to be a little careful not to overdose is the Maracyn. It's also a good idea to take twice as long (96 hrs. vs 48 hrs.) to bring your copper levels up, unless you've got a badly infected fish that needs treatment NOW. While 0.5 mg/L is the copper level most people shoot for, I think 0.35 mg/L is sufficient for copper sensitive species, such as Dwarf Angels.

Your good on the Selcon. I think the directions say to mix 0.5 ml of it in a plastic cup with the fish food.


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Old 11/27/2011, 01:15 PM   #17
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I've used Cupramine, PraziPro and Maracyn 1 & 2 concurrently many times with success. IMO & E the one you have to be a little careful not to overdose is the Maracyn. It's also a good idea to take twice as long (96 hrs. vs 48 hrs.) to bring your copper levels up, unless you've got a badly infected fish that needs treatment NOW. While 0.5 mg/L is the copper level most people shoot for, I think 0.35 mg/L is sufficient for copper sensitive species, such as Dwarf Angels.

Your good on the Selcon. I think the directions say to mix 0.5 ml of it in a plastic cup with the fish food.
I also have a bicolor blenny in the quarantine - bought from same tank/same time, but he has no spots on him - just the tang. I do a 5 1/4gallon water change every 2-3 days. QT is 31.2 gallons. Hoping the spot heals on its own.


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Old 12/01/2011, 08:18 PM   #18
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Ugh - I am having more problems. Someone please chime in - notice the difference around the top part of the eye and down the lateral line of the fish - it looks more black now - almost like a dirty scruff burn mark. The fish is also scratching more - though I am changing 5 1/4 gallons every 2-3 days with the .5 mg/l of cupramine.

Please compare my first photo with these new pics/video attached:











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Old 12/01/2011, 08:56 PM   #19
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I'm starting to think your Tang might have HLLE. Check out these links:

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/koledis.htm

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/hllefaqs.htm


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Old 12/01/2011, 09:13 PM   #20
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I am maintaining good water quality and add vitamins to everything I feed? Hmmm

Edit: Diet consists of home made mix - shrimp, squid, clam, oyster, "seafood mix" blended with mysis shrimp (its what the package says although it should be MYSID not mysis), blood worms, brine shrimp with spiruluna, and nori clips, plus pellet and flake - I soak it all in boyd vitamin-c.

Sigh.


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Old 12/01/2011, 10:43 PM   #21
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I am maintaining good water quality and add vitamins to everything I feed? Hmmm

Edit: Diet consists of home made mix - shrimp, squid, clam, oyster, "seafood mix" blended with mysis shrimp (its what the package says although it should be MYSID not mysis), blood worms, brine shrimp with spiruluna, and nori clips, plus pellet and flake - I soak it all in boyd vitamin-c.

Sigh.
Have you eliminated Flukes as a possibility? Cuz IME without knowing for sure what you're dealing with, process of elimination is your best course of action. I would administer a f/w dip in a clear glass container for 3-4 mins. Take care that both the temp & pH match your QT. If he has Flukes, you should see them fall out and settle on the bottom. If not, then you can cross that off. Seems like you are doing all you can if it's HLLE (diet/WCs) and once you get your copper up to .5 that covers Ich/external parasites. Only thing left you can do is administer antibiotics if it's a bacterial infection.


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Old 12/01/2011, 11:25 PM   #22
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I have Prazipro I could use...


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Old 12/02/2011, 02:19 AM   #23
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I guess I will continue with Cupramine for the time being - since it is scratching like crazy now. The ich must of taken hold during the first few days I had them in QT without copper and as I was slowly adding it. Now that the cyst is on the fish - the parasite only dies in its free swimming stage, which will be when it comes off the fish and goes to find a place to hatch, that will be when the copper kills it?

Once cupramine is done with - I will use prazipro. I am a bit leary on the freshwater dip at this point - don't want to add more stress to it, since prazi can take care of that in the QT.

What do you think?


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Old 12/02/2011, 09:08 AM   #24
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I guess I will continue with Cupramine for the time being - since it is scratching like crazy now. The ich must of taken hold during the first few days I had them in QT without copper and as I was slowly adding it. Now that the cyst is on the fish - the parasite only dies in its free swimming stage, which will be when it comes off the fish and goes to find a place to hatch, that will be when the copper kills it?

Once cupramine is done with - I will use prazipro. I am a bit leary on the freshwater dip at this point - don't want to add more stress to it, since prazi can take care of that in the QT.

What do you think?
Are you sure it's Ich? Have you actually seen any trophonts (looks like sugar/salt sprinkled all over the fish)? If so, then yeah you probably have Ich. If not, then you might wanna consider the possibility that it's something else causing your fish to scratch.


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Old 12/02/2011, 01:00 PM   #25
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Have you eliminated Flukes as a possibility? Cuz IME without knowing for sure what you're dealing with, process of elimination is your best course of action. I would administer a f/w dip in a clear glass container for 3-4 mins. Take care that both the temp & pH match your QT. If he has Flukes, you should see them fall out and settle on the bottom. If not, then you can cross that off. Seems like you are doing all you can if it's HLLE (diet/WCs) and once you get your copper up to .5 that covers Ich/external parasites. Only thing left you can do is administer antibiotics if it's a bacterial infection.
The wound could be due to flukes IMO. Agree with the above, a freshwater dip would rule flukes out if nothing else. One less possibility to have to consider.


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