Cryptocaryon Irritans - tank transfer method

[alaska clowns]

Thanks hvacman. I'm going to give it a go this week - I started to try hypo, but I'm switching horses in the middle of the stream after losing confidence in my refractometer calibration, and then after reading about hypo-resistant ich. I guess there's a bright spot...now my costs may be cut a bit with my already-lower-than-usual salinity

[OK]

I just use a power head and heater. The lid to the Rubbermaid containers still snap on with the cords pinched in them. The contailers I use have some air vents in the handle area on the sides of the container so they aren't air tight. If thay are non-vented you may want to make some air vents in the lids.

Like I said before, the fish are only in the water for 3 days at a clip, so I don't worry about ammonia too much as they aren't in the water long enough for it to build to toxic levels (at least with my stocking levels).

The bigger problem is setting up a longer term QT with an ich free bio filter for the 8 week or so fallow period should one be needed. This is where you need to be carefull and really monitor ammonia and be ready for instant water changes.

[OK]

Originally Posted by hvacman250

The only downfall to this treatment is cost and stress, but I feel its worth it for Ich. If you used a 10 gallon tank, 50 gallons isnt too bad; a 30 gallon tank for bigger fish (I use a 29 gallon) is 150 gallons, or ~$50 worth of salt to most people. When I do this treatment, I treat multiple fish to keep cost down.

The cost for me isn't too bad. I had ich on all my fish. I used this method on the inhabitants at the time and let the tank sit fallow for 10 weeks. Since then I have considered the tank "ich free".

I now use tank water for the treatment, and add the NSW to the display just as I would a water change, so in all actuallity I'm just doing more frequent water changes and not wasting anything.

BUT... (BIG BUT)...this only works for me because I am confident through previous treatments and a fallow period the display water is ich free.

[Reefing Newbie]

I may be trying this method on my next additions. Two of the fish I have don't get along with each other so I can't put both through this (I may have two sub male fairy wrasses). Would it be possible to carry this process out with 2 20 gallon long aquariums knowing that I will have a purple tang being added down the road?

[snorvich]

Tank transfer is very easy. The initial receiving tank is temp and SG adjusted to the bag water with SG a few points couple of points lower than the bag water is ok but it cannot be higher. This means there is no need for drip acclimation and does not result in prolonged stays in bag water where pH can rise and ammonia toxicity can increase once the bag is opened which is particularly important after prolonged stays in the bag.

The total tank transfer period requires 12 days. After every three day stay in the first tank, the fish is transfered on the morning of the fourth (and 7th and 10th) day to the next tank (two tanks are required, typically a 20 gallon tank times two). The first tank is then drained and cleaned and readied for the next transfer. During the 12 day tank transfer process ( 3 day stays 4 transfers) look for other maladies. Since there are no medications to interact with in the transfer tanks which contain freshly mixed salt water aged and aerated overnight , an ammonia detoxifier is used during each 3 day period. Bound copper products for example can't be safely used with ammonia detoxifiers as more toxic free copper occurs with lethal copper toxicity, even though total copper measures the same.

If there is reason to suspect infestation with brooklynellosis, velvet or flukes , do a formalin bath before starting a treatment with copper for velvet, formalin for brooklynellosis or prazipro for flukes.

Since not all maladies will present symptoms in the 12 days( flukes can easily be missed ), use a larger cycled QT tank for an additional 2 to 4 weeks of observation depending on the condition of the fish with treatment as necessary.

Most fish receive no medications yet all are effectively prophylactically treated for cryptocaryon irritans (ich),the most common killer

Ammonia is monitored and has never been an issue during the 3 day stay but a detoxifier is added just in case, The cycled tank takes care of itself.

BTW there is no need to worry about nitrite or nitrate.

[snorvich]

Tank transfer is very easy. The initial receiving tank is temp and SG adjusted to the bag water with SG a few points couple of points lower than the bag water is ok but it cannot be higher. This means there is no need for drip acclimation and does not result in prolonged stays in bag water where pH can rise and ammonia toxicity can increase once the bag is opened which is particularly important after prolonged stays in the bag.

The total tank transfer period requires 12 days. After every three day stay in the first tank, the fish is transfered on the morning of the fourth (and 7th and 10th) day to the next tank (two tanks are required, typically a 20 gallon tank times two). The first tank is then drained and cleaned and readied for the next transfer. During the 12 day tank transfer process ( 3 day stays 4 transfers) look for other maladies. Since there are no medications to interact with in the transfer tanks which contain freshly mixed salt water aged and aerated overnight , an ammonia detoxifier is used during each 3 day period. Bound copper products for example can't be safely used with ammonia detoxifiers as more toxic free copper occurs with lethal copper toxicity, even though total copper measures the same.

If there is reason to suspect infestation with brooklynellosis, velvet or flukes , do a formalin bath before starting a treatment with copper for velvet, formalin for brooklynellosis or prazipro for flukes.

Since not all maladies will present symptoms in the 12 days( flukes can easily be missed ), use a larger cycled QT tank for an additional 2 to 4 weeks of observation depending on the condition of the fish with treatment as necessary.

Most fish receive no medications yet all are effectively prophylactically treated for cryptocaryon irritans (ich),the most common killer

Ammonia is monitored and has never been an issue during the 3 day stay but a detoxifier is added just in case, The cycled tank takes care of itself.

BTW there is no need to worry about nitrite or nitrate.

[adikira]

My fish got ich (or at least I believe so). I'm considering the multitank fish transfer method while keeping the display empty. I moved almost all my fish to a separate tank (a rather small 20 gal compared to the 187 gal DT) except the marine betta and GSM that I couldn't catch yet.

Two questions, somewhat related tot he multi trank transfer method (let me know if they are not related enough to this topic and I should instead open a new thread for this).

1) do you think that covering the bottom of the tank with some kind of sheet or something and pulling it out after 3 days and putting a new one instead would work as an alternative to transferring the fish to a new tank? I'd assume the Ich would attach to them when dropping off the fish and removing the sheet would also remove the Ich cysts.

I'm not sure how strong their attachment is, if by just pulling the sheet out they would fall off and maybe get in the water current (maybe stop all pumps/powerheads) and then on the bottom.

2) This brings me to the second question. If the ich cysts are not too well attached to the bottom (or side or whatever) is vacuuming a bare bottom instead of transferring be effective? Or maybe used in conjunction with the sheet method I mentioned under question 1? I'm pretty sure I found an article about siphoning a bare bottom every 3 days for so long will erradicate the problem. I'm not 100% if it applied to ich or velvet (well, if it applies to one it may apply to some extent to the other). I'm not sure if it was on the web or a book - I can't find it any more. I only found a general reference online that transfer and siphoning the bare bottom can be used effectively but require timelines and effort. I'm also wondering if brushing the bottom would help to detach the cysts for vacuuming or rather break them off potentially releasing the free swimming tomites?

I'm thinking that avoiding transfers may be easier to implement and less stresfull to the fish.

[adikira]

Originally Posted by adikira

I'm thinking that avoiding transfers may be easier to implement and less stresfull to the fish.

Well, I guess if the fish can be moved with, at least some of the water, without using a net it may not be as stressful - and less concerns about the transfer method

[hajas]

Could I do the transfer method with a 10 gallon and a 20 gallon tank? I plan on introducing a pair of clowns. Thanks.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by hajas

Could I do the transfer method with a 10 gallon and a 20 gallon tank? I plan on introducing a pair of clowns. Thanks.

Sure, no problem. I use 20's because that is what I have and it is able to accommodate good sized fish.

[Reefing Newbie]

I just thought of something. If the ich falls off about every 3 days, wouldn't you need to time the transfers on the schedule of that? This may be a dumb question, but my brain is not connecting this one.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by Reefing Newbie

I just thought of something. If the ich falls off about every 3 days, wouldn't you need to time the transfers on the schedule of that? This may be a dumb question, but my brain is not connecting this one.

No, simply transfer on the morning of days 4,7,10,13 (to established quarantine). Don't over think this.

[Reefing Newbie]

Originally Posted by snorvich

No, simply transfer on the morning of days 4,7,10,13 (to established quarantine). Don't over think this.

Thanks, for the help Steve. I just want to fully understand this before going ahead with it.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by Reefing Newbie

Thanks, for the help Steve. I just want to fully understand this before going ahead with it.

The absolute best way to understand is to intimately understand the life cycle as presented in the sticky.

[SKurj]

Is there any reason the transfers could not be done every 7 days?

(I'm already up before 5 am for the commute...through the week)

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by SKurj

Is there any reason the transfers could not be done every 7 days?

(I'm already up before 5 am for the commute...through the week)

If you want to use this highly effective method, please do it as presented.

[houser]

I gave this a try on a pair of new angels that quickly became coated with ich. Rather than treat with copper (typical) or hypo (few times) I decided to give this a try.

Inspired by an earlier post about using a bucket I simply put them in a 5 gallon bucket with a 50W heater and a rigid airline with a frag plug banded on for weight. A few PVC fittings as well. I transferred a total of 4 times as directed.

In the first bucket the fish quickly lost their visible ich. I never did see it again through all the subsequent transfers. I did not have duplicate heaters, tubes, fittings (all in use throughout other systems) so I pulled the stuff out and gave it a 30 minute bleach soak, thorough rinsing, towel dry, then put it right back into service. I did switch to a new frag plug for weighing down the airline as it was fairly porous.

These two fish are clean as a whistle. I consider them to be 100% clean, which is much more confident than if I treated with copper for a few weeks.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by houser

I gave this a try on a pair of new angels that quickly became coated with ich. Rather than treat with copper (typical) or hypo (few times) I decided to give this a try.

Inspired by an earlier post about using a bucket I simply put them in a 5 gallon bucket with a 50W heater and a rigid airline with a frag plug banded on for weight. A few PVC fittings as well. I transferred a total of 4 times as directed.

In the first bucket the fish quickly lost their visible ich. I never did see it again through all the subsequent transfers. I did not have duplicate heaters, tubes, fittings (all in use throughout other systems) so I pulled the stuff out and gave it a 30 minute bleach soak, thorough rinsing, towel dry, then put it right back into service. I did switch to a new frag plug for weighing down the airline as it was fairly porous.

These two fish are clean as a whistle. I consider them to be 100% clean, which is much more confident than if I treated with copper for a few weeks.

Yes, buckets work fine too. For me this is the easiest and most effective treatment for ich and is easiest on the fish. The four transfers insure that nonvisible ich has dropped off as well. Thanks for posting!

[fishlearner]

Snorvich,
Thank you for all your helpful posts. I have three questions:

1) Would it be wise to combine hyposalinity (possibly mild, say 1.014) with tank transfer or would that only add more work/stress with no benefit ?

2) I have read about the lifecycle and just want to understand why this method works. Is it basically that the tomonts take three+ days to hatch, so as long as you change the water ever three days, no tomonts will be transfered and the cycle will stop at this part of the cycle.

3) I have a bunch of tanks, and was wondering if draining tank and letting it dry for three days would be enough ? Would it be better to add bleach to the (fish-free !!!) tank and let it run for a few hours before allowing it to dry ? Does bleach kill all the cysts ? How much (Chlorox) to add to make a "dilute" solution ?

Thanks !

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by fishlearner

Snorvich,
Thank you for all your helpful posts. I have three questions:

1) Would it be wise to combine hyposalinity (possibly mild, say 1.014) with tank transfer or would that only add more work/stress with no benefit ?

Hyposalinity at 1.014 has no affect on the average strain of cryptocaryon irritans. Moreover, some strains are hyposalinity resistant. For more than you ever wanted to know about this, try reading this.

2) I have read about the lifecycle and just want to understand why this method works. Is it basically that the tomonts take three+ days to hatch, so as long as you change the water ever three days, no tomonts will be transfered and the cycle will stop at this part of the cycle.

Exactly. Exploits the life cycle.

3) I have a bunch of tanks, and was wondering if draining tank and letting it dry for three days would be enough ? Would it be better to add bleach to the (fish-free !!!) tank and let it run for a few hours before allowing it to dry ? Does bleach kill all the cysts ? How much (Chlorox) to add to make a "dilute" solution ?

You would probably be ok with simply draining the tank and letting it dry, but I prefer 1 part clorox to 20 parts water then letting it dry.

Thanks !

[fishlearner]

Again, thanks for your kind dedication.

I read that

Theronts excyst or hatch from the tomont stage consistently between the hours of 2am and 9am (Yoshinaga & Dickerson, 1994).

So why is it important to change water in a.m. ? Seems that if you do it at, say 7 a.m. the Theronts might already have hatched and attached to the fish.

Would evening time or 1 a.m be better (not that I'm awake at that hour) before the Theronts hatch ?

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by fishlearner

Again, thanks for your kind dedication.

I read that

Theronts excyst or hatch from the tomont stage consistently between the hours of 2am and 9am (Yoshinaga & Dickerson, 1994).

So why is it important to change water in a.m. ? Seems that if you do it at, say 7 a.m. the Theronts might already have hatched and attached to the fish.

Would evening time or 1 a.m be better (not that I'm awake at that hour) before the Theronts hatch ?

The issue is when tomonts drop from the fish which is always at night. Theronts hatch when the fish have "retired for the evening" but if the tomonts no longer exist (due to the transfer) it is immaterial.

[Monroereef]

Hello Steve

I have a question related to this method.

Are we saying that the marine ich cannot survive a dry off? I mean the idea of tank transfer is that the ich will die if the tank is dried.

Will it hold true for buckets/nets/dripping supplies as well? If all the "equipment or things" that were in contact with water that had ich, are set to dry, is it safe to say that they do not carry ich anymore in any form?

Thanks for advice.

Sunny

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by Monroereef

Hello Steve

I have a question related to this method.

Are we saying that the marine ich cannot survive a dry off? I mean the idea of tank transfer is that the ich will die if the tank is dried.

Will it hold true for buckets/nets/dripping supplies as well? If all the "equipment or things" that were in contact with water that had ich, are set to dry, is it safe to say that they do not carry ich anymore in any form?

Thanks for advice.

Sunny

When I transfer to the next tank, I rinse the "old" with a mixture of bleach and water, rinse thoroughly with RO water, then dry it out. I NEVER share equipment or water across tanks. And I never use nets for fish. Use tupperware and drain all water.

[_Mackus_]

I was about to try cupramine for the first time on a Kole tang I've had in my QT for about a week, but instead I think I'll try this method, which seems easier for a new-to-medicating person like myself.

Just to be sure I've got this right, can you let me know if I'm planning everything correctly?

I'm going to use 5 gallon buckets, as I typically only get one new fish at a time (biggest being a tang or so) or perhaps two smaller guys. Will all the additional equipment I need be a small heater, powerhead, and maybe a thermometer, with one set for each dedicated tank/bucket? Is there any additional equipment I should use? Ammonia badge? HOB filter? Lights? PVC connectors for hiding spots?

Day 1 - put the fish in bucket A
Day 4 - catch him (no net) and put him into bucket B, which is temp and salinity matched
Day 5/6 - empty, clean (with bleach?), and dry Bucket A and all equipment
Day 7 - catch fish in bucket B, put him in bucket A which now has new water, temp and salinity matched
Day 8/9 - empty, clean, and dry Bucket B and all equipment
Day 10 - catch fish in bucket A, put him in bucket B with new water
Day 11/12 - empty, clean and let dry Bucket A, put in storage
Day 13 - end of tank transfer method, put tang back in QT
Day 14 - empty, clean and let dry Bucket B, put in storage

Sounds like the standard method is to go straight from the LFS bag to the transfer method. However, I currently have my Kole tang in my QT tank. If I was planning on treating him with PraziPro, should I do that before or after the tank transfer method (he is already eating well), or not at all unless I see symptoms that require treatment? I understand while I do the transfer method, in the meantime I'll have to tear down and refill my QT prior to putting the tang back in there. If I treat with Prazi before the transfer method, should I put the fish back into the (new water, clean) QT after the transfer method is complete, or can I go straight into the DT with him?