Reef Central Online Community

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > Invert and Plant Forums > Cephalopods
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
Thread Tools
Old 08/29/2011, 01:35 PM   #176
cadre
Registered Member
 
cadre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexS95 View Post
No, they don't: they ship horribly.
Actually, I don't think the shipping is the reason for the high mortality rate on these guys. It seems to be more likely that many die due to old age after being received. I have received many octopuses at my store and never had one die except due to old age. I have not received Blue Rings however, so they may be different (doubt it).

That said, the fact that it can be done is not a reason to do it. There are many awesome cephs that are not nearly as poisonous as the blue rings. The people who get blue rings as their first ceph, or as their first saltwater animal tend to be the ones that think of animals as "accessories." I know not everyone like this but from my personal experience it seems to be the case. I just wonder why people don't start with an octopus that won't kill you. I'd rather have an octopus I can interact with, especially since they are so smart.


cadre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/07/2011, 01:16 AM   #177
matt604
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 107
Iv read that the blue ring does not always inject its poison into its prey,if the shell is to hard or if it doesn't hit its mark,it will inject the poison into the surrounding water to paralyze its prey. which might be why its evolved with such strong venom .If someone fed it snails and hermits this would potentially increase the volume of venom in the water. Something to think about well doing water changes or touching the water at all.But I have no problem with people doing what ever they want as long as it doesn't harm the creature or any humans other then there selves


matt604 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/07/2011, 08:10 AM   #178
Gonodactylus
Premium Member
 
Gonodactylus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Berkeley, CA, USA
Posts: 4,775
There is no study that I know of that has shown that blue-rings purposefully release TTX into the water column to kill prey.

Roy


Gonodactylus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/07/2011, 01:51 PM   #179
matt604
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 107
im not 100% by any means, heres an artical of google.but hey its just google and its not a scientific artical. The blue-ringed octopus is the size of a golf ball but its poison is powerful enough to kill an adult human in minutes. There’s no known antidote. The only treatment is hours of heart massage and artificial respiration until the poison has worked its way out of your system.

The poison is not injected but is contained in the octopus’s saliva, which comes from two glands each as big as its brain. Poison from the one is used on its main prey, crabs, and is relatively harmless to humans. Poison from the other gland serves as defense against predators. The blue-ringed octopus either secretes the poison in the vicinity of its prey, waits until it is immobile and then devours it, or it jumps out and envelops the prey in its 8 tentacles and bites it



See: The blue-ringed octopus


matt604 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/07/2011, 01:53 PM   #180
matt604
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 107
anouther artical These species are also clever in camouflaging themselves in the water. The presence of certain dermal chromatophore helps the octopus to blend with environment when needed. You can thus never know when this clever creature can change its color!

When the prey is at a distance, the Blue Ringed octopus can even squirt the venom through the water to attack its prey and one more... The most dangerous cephalopod is the small blue-ringed octopus, which produces highly toxic saliva powerful enough to kill a human.

To catch prey, it either releases saliva into the water and waits for the poison to take effect, or catches, bites, and injects prey directly. Its bright coloring is unusual for an octopus, and the numerous blue rings covering its body become more iridescent if it is disturbed.


matt604 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/07/2011, 04:08 PM   #181
AlexS95
Registered Member
 
AlexS95's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Brandon, FL
Posts: 1,043
I'm going to side with Roy instead of Google.


AlexS95 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/07/2011, 04:35 PM   #182
asid61
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Cupertino, CA
Posts: 1,113
The poison is probably strong so that it can kill things larger than itself and protect itself to make up for it's size.
Just my opinion.


asid61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/07/2011, 05:03 PM   #183
matt604
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 107
yup i have no doubt roy is right after reading his profile.One thing is forsure octopus have to be one of the most interesting sea creatures out there. iv always wanted to see the giant pacific octopus off my coast here in bc.



Last edited by matt604; 09/07/2011 at 05:18 PM.
matt604 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10/07/2011, 08:33 PM   #184
asid61
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Cupertino, CA
Posts: 1,113
Quote:
Originally Posted by CephDude View Post
Not in my experience, I've had over 10 trans-shipped, all of then have survived over 3 months. I consider that a pretty good survival rate, for an animal that has a natural life cycle of 6 months... You hear that Wunderpuss and Mimic's have bad survival rates as well, I've never had a problem with them.
Pics please?


asid61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10/08/2011, 07:03 AM   #185
Hotpuppy
Registered Member.
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 116
APHIS / FWS (Fish and Wildlife Service) in the United States requires a permit to *move* injurious wildlife... the fee for said permit is $100. It's highly unlikely that they do not require a permit to possess or import the same. If they sold it for $20 it means they had no permit for it.

Here is the link to the permit:
http://www.fws.gov/forms/3-200-42.pdf

Blue ring will fall under the Lacey Act.... which bans the importation of injurious wildlife.
Part 16 is titled "Injurious Wildlife"
Full citatioin is Title 50 CFR, Part 16
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...1.2.10&idno=50

Section 22 specifically deals with Injurious wildlife......
for your amusement here is the law.
§ 16.22 Injurious wildlife permits.

top
The Director may, upon receipt of an application and in accordance with the issuance criteria of this section, issue a permit authorizing the importation into or shipment between the continental United States, the District of Columbia, Hawaii, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, or any possession of the United States of injurious wildlife (See subpart B of this part) for zoological, educational, medical, or scientific purposes.

(a) Application requirements. Submit applications for permits to import, transport or acquire injurious wildlife for such purposes to the Director, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, (Attention: Office of Management Authority), 4401 N. Fairfax Drive, Room 700, Arlington, VA 22203. Submit applications in writing on a Federal Fish and Wildlife License/Permit application (Form 3–200) and attach all of the following information:

(1) The number of specimens and the common and scientific names (genus and species) of each species of live wildlife proposed to be imported or otherwise acquired, transported and possessed;

(2) The purpose of such importation or other acquisition, transportation and possession;

(3) The address of the premises where such live wildlife will be kept in captivity;

(4) A statement of the applicant's qualifications and previous experience in caring for and handling captive wildlife.

(b) Additional permit conditions. In addition to the general conditions set forth in part 13 of this subchapter B, permits to import or ship injurious wildlife for zoological, educational, medical, or scientific purposes shall be subject to the following conditions:

(1) All live wildlife acquired under permit and all progeny thereof, must be confined in the approved facilities on the premises authorized in the permit.

(2) No live wildlife, acquired under permit, or any eggs or progeny thereof, may be sold, donated, traded, loaned, or transferred to any other person unless such person has a permit issued by the Director under §16.22 authorizing him to acquire and possess such wildlife or the eggs or progeny thereof.

(3) Permittees shall notify the nearest Special Agent-in-Charge (see §10.22 of this chapter) by telephone or other expedient means within 24 hours following the escape of any wildlife imported or transported under authority of a permit issued under this section, or the escape of any progeny of such wildlife, unless otherwise specifically exempted by terms of the permit.

(c) Issuance criteria. The Director shall consider the following in determining whether to issue a permit to import or ship injurious wildlife for zoological, educational, medical, or scientific purposes:

(1) Whether the wildlife is being imported or otherwise acquired for a bona fide scientific, medical, educational, or zoological exhibition purpose;

(2) Whether the facilities for holding the wildlife in captivity have been inspected and approved, and consist of a basic cage or structure of a design and material adequate to prevent escape which is maintained inside a building or other facility of such structure that the wildlife could not escape from the building or other facility after escaping from the cage or structure maintained therein;

(3) Whether the applicant is a responsible person who is aware of the potential dangers to public interests posed by such wildlife, and who by reason of his knowledge, experience, and facilities reasonably can be expected to provide adequate protection for such public interests; and

(4) If such wildlife is to be imported or otherwise acquired for zoological or aquarium exhibition purposes, whether such exhibition or display will be open to the public during regular appropriate hours.

(d) The Office of Management and Budget approved the information collection requirements contained in this part 16 under 44 U.S.C. 3507 and assigned OMB Control Number 1018–0093. The Service may not conduct or sponsor, and you are not required to respond to, a collection of information unless it displays a currently valid OMB control number. We are collecting this information to provide information necessary to evaluate permit applications. We will use this information to review permit applications and make decisions, according to criteria established in various Federal wildlife conservation statutes and regulations, on the issuance, suspension, revocation, or denial of permits. You must respond to obtain or retain a permit. We estimate the public reporting burden for these reporting requirements to average 2 hours per response, including time for reviewing instructions, gathering and maintaining data, and completing and reviewing the forms. Direct comments regarding the burden estimate or any other aspect of these reporting requirements to the Service Information Collection Control Officer, MS–222 ARLSQ, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, Washington, DC 20240, or the Office of Management and Budget, Paperwork Reduction Project (1018–0093), Washington, DC 20603.

[39 FR 1169, Jan. 4, 1974, as amended at 47 FR 30786, July 15, 1982; 63 FR 52634, Oct. 1, 1998]


Hotpuppy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10/08/2011, 07:11 AM   #186
Hotpuppy
Registered Member.
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 116
Now, I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last nite..... so your mileage may vary...

But -

My guess is that it is a violation of Federal Law to import, possess, or sell a Blue Ringed Octopus based on the fact that it is a highly venemous animal capable of causing serious injury or death.

Aquaria will falll under zoological.... so

Can you get away with it? Yea.... one stupid LFS did, one wholesaler did, and one idiot got one for $20.

However, all it take is one phone call to the FWS and they will probably fine the LFS, confiscate the specimen, and revoke the wholesalers import/export permit. Frankly, for good reason. My opinion is that selling highly venemous animals is irresponsible. Some things simply belong on the discovery channel, and the blue ringed octopus is one of them. It is definately a look but don't touch animal.

Now, before anyone gets excited enough to do panty orgami...... the OP did not post a photo so this is all conjecture based on an accurate ID by the OP. What's strange to me is that a LFS would only charge $20 to sell something that is highly poisonous and rare. Most LF$ charge more for the strange or poisonous..... just sayin. Most folks in this business know their goodies and it's bit wierd that the LFS, distributor, etc missed this being a rare specimen. There are probably more than a few commercial aquariums and researchers who would have been happy to pay good money for a blue ring. They also would have had the right permits......

very strange indeed.....


Hotpuppy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10/15/2011, 02:01 PM   #187
asid61
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Cupertino, CA
Posts: 1,113
There are far less restraints on buying marine animals than land animals. For instance, it is illegal to buy a ferret or sugar glider or poisonous snake in CA, but buying lionfish, stonefish, or jellyfish is perfectly legal, though jellyfish and lionfish can be far more dangerous than a snake.


asid61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10/16/2011, 11:12 AM   #188
nixer
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: NWINDIANA
Posts: 777
http://www.fws.gov/fisheries/ans/ANSInjurious.cfm


nixer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/01/2011, 12:02 PM   #189
nateqt
Registered Member
 
nateqt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotpuppy View Post
Now, before anyone gets excited enough to do panty orgami...... the OP did not post a photo so this is all conjecture based on an accurate ID by the OP. What's strange to me is that a LFS would only charge $20 to sell something that is highly poisonous and rare. Most LF$ charge more for the strange or poisonous..... just sayin. Most folks in this business know their goodies and it's bit wierd that the LFS, distributor, etc missed this being a rare specimen. There are probably more than a few commercial aquariums and researchers who would have been happy to pay good money for a blue ring. They also would have had the right permits......

very strange indeed.....
Blue rings are not as rare as you think you are, I commonly see that at the LA wholesalers, at least a few times a month.


nateqt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/02/2011, 10:20 PM   #190
asid61
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Cupertino, CA
Posts: 1,113
Quote:
Originally Posted by nixer View Post
If this is the case, then why can you buy one from here: http://www.oceanproaquatics.com/shop...a-p-19775.html
It is a CA company in Los Angeles.


asid61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/03/2011, 10:27 PM   #191
Moray keeper
Registered Member
 
Moray keeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: In the tank behind you
Posts: 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by asid61 View Post
If this is the case, then why can you buy one from here: http://www.oceanproaquatics.com/shop...a-p-19775.html
It is a CA company in Los Angeles.
Has anyone here ordered from Oceanproaquatics? I tried doing a search but couldn't find much listed on RC


__________________
26 morays, 10 anglers, 23 scorpionfish, 1 black trigger, 1 clownfish, 1 ornate octopus
Moray keeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/05/2011, 07:41 PM   #192
oblongshrimp
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 33
Cool and beautiful but sound dangerous if you don't know what your doing.


oblongshrimp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/06/2011, 05:31 PM   #193
asid61
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Cupertino, CA
Posts: 1,113
I would not order from oceanpro, because the their supposed "bimaculatus" octopus ictually has a chance of not being one. There are many flaws on their site, and while I contacted the owner to report them, there has been no change. Not to mention that he gives discounts to people who advocate him on other sites. I think that he is censoring bad reviews or making up reviews.
Here it is: http://www.oceanproaquatics.com/coupons.html


asid61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/04/2012, 04:47 PM   #194
DanK13
Registered Member
 
DanK13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: MA
Posts: 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gonodactylus View Post
There is no study that I know of that has shown that blue-rings purposefully release TTX into the water column to kill prey.

Roy
I have seen video footage of the blue ringed releasing toxin into water to stun prey for an easy kill. I can ask my former invert zoology professor the name of the video if you wish. Just let me know.


__________________
Never try to understand water and electricity. The more you think you know the less you do.
Sweet! I just won a bid to install a 5500gal system in paradise.

Current Tank Info: Big

Last edited by DanK13; 01/04/2012 at 04:54 PM.
DanK13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/04/2012, 04:55 PM   #195
Gonodactylus
Premium Member
 
Gonodactylus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Berkeley, CA, USA
Posts: 4,775
I know the photographer who made the film and who staged the shot in an aquarium. The stomatopod and the blue-ring are from different parts of Australia. It is quite possible that the octopus was damaged in repeated interactions with the stomatopods and may have "leaked" some TTX.

Roy


Gonodactylus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/04/2012, 06:14 PM   #196
DanK13
Registered Member
 
DanK13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: MA
Posts: 153
Well I dont remember the source of the video since it was 12 or so years ago but I do remember that it was shot in the wild off the coast of southern Japan. Weather it was a damaged venom gland or not they didn't say but it did invert a fish from the opposite side of a rock and easily snatch it.


__________________
Never try to understand water and electricity. The more you think you know the less you do.
Sweet! I just won a bid to install a 5500gal system in paradise.

Current Tank Info: Big

Last edited by DanK13; 01/04/2012 at 06:21 PM.
DanK13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/20/2012, 02:48 PM   #197
Kasasah7
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by waynem View Post
Wow I hope you guys don't have kids. I mean I really really hope you don't.

I did see a LFS once with a stone fish in a tank with out a lid once, when I pointed out risk of death with 15min not to mention the lawsuit waiting to happen they just shrugged. I guess they didn't even know how deadly a fish it is.

Its not often but sometime laws do make sense.
I've seen that kind of thing before but with piranhas. Awesome Yellow flounder tang btw :P


Kasasah7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/02/2012, 04:01 PM   #198
moshi1ry
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 163
From what i have been told maybe someone else has already mentioned this blue ringed octopus is not an endangered species. I read a thread some where ill post if i can find it again. But it was an aussy talking about how the octys cover there water near his house and he has pictures.


moshi1ry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/08/2012, 01:56 AM   #199
King Venom
Registered Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by waynem View Post
Wow I hope you guys don't have kids. I mean I really really hope you don't.

I did see a LFS once with a stone fish in a tank with out a lid once, when I pointed out risk of death with 15min not to mention the lawsuit waiting to happen they just shrugged. I guess they didn't even know how deadly a fish it is.

Its not often but sometime laws do make sense.
There is a shop in Australia, that deals in, stones, blue ring, cone shells, angler fish. Rare things not everyone wants he had a close call with a B.Ring when it crawled across his hand while cleaning the tank.


__________________
Spearfishing - Safe - Selective - Sustainable - Seafood.
King Venom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/09/2012, 10:07 PM   #200
gamecockfan803
Registered Member
 
gamecockfan803's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 39
Its only illegal depending on were you live I work at a LFS and we can special order stone fish and other venomous saltwater live stock but the selling of these only go to expert keepers and there would be paperwork for fish of this caliber to release the store of any accidents that might happen due to poor owner ship that could happen at the customers home the thing about the is the blue ring like the rest of his cousins are escape experts and will almost always find a way out


gamecockfan803 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:23 PM.


TapaTalk Enabled

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright ©1999-2014