Tail rot bacterial infections considerations

[vsiege]

I have had two horses (thats all I had) die a painful death of tail rot or bacterial infection (from what I can tell). I treated the second with furon 2 but I could not save him. The first never showed me signs other than going on a hunger strike. Moving forward I'm trying to address possible issues with my setup and wanted a place to bounce some ideas off of. That's my intension with this post.

Current setup:
37 gallon
Reef Octopus BH-1000 HOB protein skimmer (rated for much higher than my tank)
Marineland Penguin BioWheel 200 HOB filter
200 watt heater (located in the output chamber of the protein skimmer)
Custom three-phase LED lighting setup (currently have only two running on timers for daytime and night time with some overlap)
28 lb. - mudd live rock
6 lb. - fiji live rock
2 lb. - coral skeletons
20 lb. - Bio-Activ Live Aragonite Black Beach Reef Sand
15 lb. - Aragonite Black Sand (can't remember brand)
5 lb. - Fine white sand
1 quart of Codium macroalgae
1 bag of chaeto macroalgea
polypropalene and fiber rope for hitching posts
have a clean up crew and increasing the Giant Nassarius snails from 2 to 12 - currently 1 Astrea Snail, 1 turbo, 3 micro hermits, 2 cerith snails, 2 Giant Nassarius snails

I was told that bacterial infections can come with livestock and can also be caused by mysis shrimp decaying between substrate. Currently my macro is growing well and there seems to be coralline growing on at least three coral skeletons that never had it. I would like to eradicate the bad while keeping the good if thats possible.

Heres my plan:
1. I was told by an authority that my substrate might be contibuting to the problem if it is too corse or big in grain size. Remove or add new finer sand over the top of what is there now.
2. Start using the probiotic Sanolife Mic-F located at seahorsesource.com (treat for twelve weeks at a higher dosage).
3. Always purchase livestock from a credible source such as seahorsesource.com or seahorse.com (OR).
4. Since pipefish are in the same family (and considerably cheaper), once the tank chem looks right after the twelve weeks, add two and watch for any problems for at least two months.

Notes:
1. I try to keep my temp from 74-76 but there are times when it reaches 77 (such as today) and slightly higher (never 80).
2. Prior to the last horse dying, my ph, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate looked great.

I'd love to hear your thoughts. I've done a lot of work and research before ever putting together a setup and thought I was on the right track (except the horse livestock that was given to me as a present -- 2 x h.kuda 1" - 2".... way too young and not from a good source).

I really want to get better substrate (finer Aragonite) but I cant determine from the pics online which would fit the bill for what I need. Can anyone recommend a brand or two?

If you sat through this post and still have nothing to contribute, I thank you for taking it seriously and look forward to the beneficial comments of those who might have some insight to offer.

[mtc1966]

i think you set up looks fine . would like to know more about the seahorses . what kind were they came from were they captive bred or wild caught ? they issue may have came in with the seahorses . you should try to keep the water temp below 74 to prevent disease.

[rayjay]

Bacterial infections usually come from excess decaying food/detritus that accumulates in hidden spots in the tank, creating perfect breading grounds for things like vibriosis. While they are always present in the tank, they multiply exponentially with each rising degree, especially above 74°.
If you can control the source of these bacterial grounds sufficiently then the temperature isn't quite as important if you are just a little high.
IME, seahorse tanks need to be kept cleaner than any form of reef tank.
When you treated the tail rot/ with Furan II, did you do it in a hospital tank and drop the temperature to 68°? Without the temperature drop it's much harder for the Furan II to accomplish successful results.
I definitely don't recommend putting pipe fish in a tank that will house true captive bred seahorses, unless you can get some of the very few captive bred pipe fish. Almost all pipe fish are wild caught and as such will expose your true captive bred seahorses to pathogens that they haven't grown up with and fall victim to. Pathogen deaths are probably the second highest cause of seahorse deaths after bacterial causes.
I can't comment on the substrate as I don't use any, preferring for simplistic cleaning above what some would consider a more natural look.

[rayjay]

Originally Posted by mtc1966

you should try to keep the water temp below 74 to prevent disease.

Keeping temperature below 74° doesn't PREVENT disease, it can only lessen the chances of the diseases taking hold.
Once a week (at least) feeding of live adult brine enriched with Dan's Feed will help the seahorses health and boost immune system to also lessen chances of problems.

[mtc1966]

Originally Posted by rayjay

Keeping temperature below 74° doesn't PREVENT disease, it can only lessen the chances of the diseases taking hold.
Once a week (at least) feeding of live adult brine enriched with Dan's Feed will help the seahorses health and boost immune system to also lessen chances of problems.

kind of splitting hairs on that. i would consider lessening the chance of disease a form of prevention. maybe i should of put the it this way help prevent disease.

[namxas]

I can't say I agree with the size of your substrate grains being an issue, as we've always run #3 grade aragonite in our SH setups. However, temps above 74*F are the top contributors to bacterial infections in healthy SH, IMHO. Every spring when temps spike, we see an outbreak of bacterial infections.

Many keepers are having great results with pro-biotics, as you mentioned in your first post. In fact, we plan on using them in all of our FOWLR setups.

[PintoSeahorse]

I've had my fair share of tail rot troubles in the past. It claimed quite a few of my horses. I would say Furon helps.... but mine are dead, so I wouldn't say that. lol Im no help, sorry. best of luck!

[WallysWorld]

Like already stated keep temp below 74 deg and keep clean.
Also I like to use a good UV sterilizer.
If you see feeding stop try a fresh water dip it has worked for me many times

[timinnl]

Originally Posted by vsiege

I have had two horses (thats all I had) die a painful death of tail rot or bacterial infection (from what I can tell). I treated the second with furon 2 but I could not save him. The first never showed me signs other than going on a hunger strike. Moving forward I'm trying to address possible issues with my setup and wanted a place to bounce some ideas off of. That's my intension with this post.

Do you know what kind of seahorses they were? Were the Captive bred or Tank raised? What exactly did you do for treatment?

Originally Posted by vsiege

Current setup:
37 gallon
Reef Octopus BH-1000 HOB protein skimmer (rated for much higher than my tank)
Marineland Penguin BioWheel 200 HOB filter
200 watt heater (located in the output chamber of the protein skimmer)
Custom three-phase LED lighting setup (currently have only two running on timers for daytime and night time with some overlap)
28 lb. - mudd live rock What is mudd rock?
6 lb. - fiji live rock
2 lb. - coral skeletons
20 lb. - Bio-Activ Live Aragonite Black Beach Reef Sand
15 lb. - Aragonite Black Sand (can't remember brand)
5 lb. - Fine white sand
1 quart of Codium macroalgae
1 bag of chaeto macroalgea
polypropalene and fiber rope for hitching posts
have a clean up crew and increasing the Giant Nassarius snails from 2 to 12 - currently 1 Astrea Snail, 1 turbo, 3 micro hermits, 2 cerith snails, 2 Giant Nassarius snails.

Your tank looks pretty good. I would suggest that you create some more swimming space for them. Also is there a sweet spot where the uneaten food collects in your tank?

Originally Posted by vsiege

I was told that bacterial infections can come with livestock and can also be caused by mysis shrimp decaying between substrate. Currently my macro is growing well and there seems to be coralline growing on at least three coral skeletons that never had it. I would like to eradicate the bad while keeping the good if thats possible.

The good & bad bacteria is ever present in your tank, it is a matter of controling it with lower temp, water changes, removing the uneaten food, using a probiotic (as an aid.) and so on.

Originally Posted by vsiege

1. I was told by an authority that my substrate might be contibuting to the problem if it is too corse or big in grain size. Remove or add new finer sand over the top of what is there now.

What is the grain size of the products? I use the Indo Pacific Black from Caribsea in my Rio 180.(BTW I liked their old site better for info.) It could cause a problem for you long term if you do not remove the accumulation of organic/inorganic matter that slowly builds up. When you do a water change do you gravel vac your tank?

Originally Posted by vsiege

2. Start using the probiotic Sanolife Mic-F located at seahorsesource.com (treat for twelve weeks at a higher dosage).

If you view it as an aid and not a cure all you will do fine using the product. It clearly states that: (It is important to understand this product is not a substitute or replacement for good husbandry practices, proper filtration, water changes and efforts to reduce bacterial loads in live foods.) The product does a great job if you follow the guidelines on using it.

Originally Posted by vsiege

3. Always purchase livestock from a credible source such as seahorsesource.com or seahorse.com (OR).

Go with seahorsesource.

Originally Posted by vsiege

4. Since pipefish are in the same family (and considerably cheaper), once the tank chem looks right after the twelve weeks, add two and watch for any problems for at least two months.

You are just going to compound the situation by doing that. Most if not all pipefish are wild caught carrying their own bacteria that tends cause problems when mixing with seahorses. One species or the other normally infects the other one. I would just run the tank fallow for 12 weeks using the ammonia methed to keep the filter going and dose with the probiotic. Or you could do a complete break down of the tank and start all over.

Notes:

Originally Posted by vsiege

Current setup:1. I try to keep my temp from 74-76 but there are times when it reaches 77 (such as today) and slightly higher (never 80).

As stated to you, please try to run your tank below 74 if possible.

Originally Posted by vsiege

Current setup:2. Prior to the last horse dying, my ph, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate looked great.

What were the results? It does really help if you post them when asking for help.

Originally Posted by vsiege

Current setup:I'd love to hear your thoughts. I've done a lot of work and research before ever putting together a setup and thought I was on the right track (except the horse livestock that was given to me as a present -- 2 x h.kuda 1" - 2".... way too young and not from a good source).

Ok it looks like you were given Tank Raise kuda going by the size of them. Just to let you know, they have a very dismal record worldwide of living long term unless you were prepared to deal with their special needs when you first received them. I think the high temp you kept them at just didn't agree with them leading them to fall ill.

Originally Posted by vsiege

Current setup:I really want to get better substrate (finer Aragonite) but I cant determine from the pics online which would fit the bill for what I need. Can anyone recommend a brand or two?

Look at the grain size. I think around 4mm/3mm or less is ok. (Please correct if I am wrong.)

Kind Regards,

Tim

[vsiege]

Thank you all. Now let me try to address everyones comments and hopefully I will be a lot closer to making solid steps to correct issues.

Originally Posted by mtc1966

i think you set up looks fine . would like to know more about the seahorses . what kind were they came from were they captive bred or wild caught ? they issue may have came in with the seahorses . you should try to keep the water temp below 74 to prevent disease.

They were h.kuda that were from a LFS, given to me as a present (i know). I have two excellent sources for captive-bred. seahorsesource and oceanrider

Originally Posted by rayjay

...always present in the tank, they multiply exponentially with each rising degree, especially above 74°.
If you can control the source of these bacterial grounds sufficiently then the temperature isn't quite as important if you are just a little high.

My temp fluctuates between 75.4 - 77. Yes, there are days when it is 74 but in my opinion - not enough. I have all hang on the back equipment and would be open to hearing about anything (thats not insaning noisy to sit next to) that will lower my temp. I was target feeding, so the amount that fell to substrate - i didnt think was substantial, but I will increase my Giant Nassarius snails. Perhaps I should be vacuuming even more.

Originally Posted by PintoSeahorse

I've had my fair share of tail rot troubles in the past. It claimed quite a few of my horses

sorry to hear that. I hope you have better success moving forward.

Originally Posted by rayjay

Once a week (at least) feeding of live adult brine enriched with Dan's Feed will help the seahorses health and boost immune system to also lessen chances of problems.

Thanks, could you PM any instructions regarding this?

Originally Posted by namxas

I can't say I agree with the size of your substrate grains being an issue, as we've always run #3 grade aragonite in our SH setups. However, temps above 74*F are the top contributors to bacterial infections in healthy SH, IMHO. Every spring when temps spike, we see an outbreak of bacterial infections.

Many keepers are having great results with pro-biotics, as you mentioned in your first post. In fact, we plan on using them in all of our FOWLR setups.

Just got the probiotics. Wish I could lower my temp more..... have a HOB style equipment and looking for a way to move forward (logically) and keep my size tank.... but control temps better. I actually have two sands mixed together:
20 lb. - Bio-Activ Live Aragonite Black Beach Reef Sand
15 lb. - CaribSea’s Arag-Alive - Hawaiian Black (the bag I received was terrible in color (brownish) and in my opinion, size)
5 lb. - Fine white sand

Originally Posted by WallysWorld

Also I like to use a good UV sterilizer.
If you see feeding stop try a fresh water dip it has worked for me many times

Dip them in RO/DI for a couple of seconds? How about garlic oil or B12? Isn't the UV sterilizer only good for parasites?

TIM.... I have a lot to write you.... thanks esp. for going through every lineWhat is mudd rock?[/quote]This just looks like solid rock.... much less porous then the fiji. Its the rock to the far left and right. would suggest that you create some more swimming space for them. Also is there a sweet spot where the uneaten food collects in your tank?[/quote]Most of what you see is open for them to explore, the ropes are just fine strands with algae on them and the rocks to the left have voids, but I will examine their space more. I dont see one area where it piles up, but I generally only feed them in one area (when they were alive). I was trying to train them to eat out of the shell on the right so that it was easier to clean up.

Originally Posted by timinnl

The good & bad bacteria is ever present in your tank, it is a matter of controling it with lower temp, water changes, removing the uneaten food, using a probiotic (as an aid.) and so on.

I change 6 to ten gallons a week. At times I have done 10 to fifteen. Lately less b/c the water params have been great. I will attach an image below.

Originally Posted by timinnl

What is the grain size of the products?...When you do a water change do you gravel vac your tank?

20 lb. - Bio-Activ Live Aragonite Black Beach Reef Sand [.5 - 1.5 mm]
15 lb. - CaribSea’s Arag-Alive - Hawaiian Black [can't find the grain size, prob. similar to yours as I bought it in Nov. 2011]
5 lb. - Nature's Ocean Marine White Sand [0.1 - 0.5 mm]
Vacuumed only once a month. Could increase that more. Should I change my filter cartridge more than once a month?

Originally Posted by timinnl

What were the results?

Image below to follow. I took a the image the week the last one died...
pH = 8.2
Ammonia = 0
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = 0
I have a red sea dissolved oxygen test..... having some troubles reading the chart correctly. I think my results are good but would need to ask someone.

Originally Posted by timinnl

they have a very dismal record worldwide of living long term unless you were prepared to deal with their special needs when you first received them. I think the high temp you kept them at just didn't agree with them leading them to fall ill.

They really were beautiful animals and I'm looking to do way better when I decide to purchase new and better livestock more properly suited for my setup (probably and h.erectus). I need to get the temp down and am open to ideas (just want to not destroy the custom spray paint job I did on the back..... but maybe its possible not to).

Thank you everyone and I look forward to your comments. Here is the water params I took ( i was excited and sent it to another marine buddy).

[mtc1966]

clip on fan will lower temps