FOWLR - How Many Fish

FishDad2 · 05/03/2012, 10:03 AM

I'm in the process of converting a well established 225 gallon reef tank to a FOWLR and, as I ponder the list of fish I want to add, I'm finding that the list is longer than the tank can hold. Not unexpected of course but I need to get the list down to a reasonable number of fish and need to consider both their size at acquisition and growth potential, among the usual factors of who plays nice together in the aquarium.

In the old days, the rule of thumb for a beginner hobbiest starting a marine tank from scratch said a maximum of 1" of fish per 5 gallons of water...up to 1" per 10 gallons if you're stocking big fish like large angels, etc.

I'm planning for a few butterflies but mostly smaller stuff so I can have lots of activity and a variety of colors. And again, there's loads of live rock and the tank has been in operation for ~6 years.

So, what do you recommend as a guideline vis-a-vis total size/quantity of fish in an established 225 gallon FOWLR that also has a large sump, DSB filter and refugium attached?

Thanks,
Chris

FishDad2 · 05/03/2012, 11:07 AM

There's also a protein skimmer in the sump and I will continue using only RODI water. So water quality will be about as good as it gets.

sandwi54 · 05/03/2012, 12:23 PM

The inch per gallon rule does not apply in marine tanks anymore, as stocking levels depend more on filtration and bioload capabilities, and more importantly, fish compatibilities.

The best way to go about this is to post the fish you want to keep, and we will comment on them.

FishDad2 · 05/03/2012, 12:44 PM

Underlined names represent fish already owned. I will be removing the Yellow Tang, Anthias and Six-Line Wrasse to allow the CBB and other timid/delicate fish to fully acclimate before reintroducing the tang, etc. and/or adding other tank mates who might cause problems. As well, I will QT all new arrivals prior to adding them to the DT.

Angelfish, Dwarf
Flame Angelfish

Butterflyfish
Copperband Butterflyfish
Heniochus Butterflyfish
Auriga Butterflyfish
Tear Drop Butterflyfish

Tangs
Yellow Tang
Hippo Tang

Anthias
Lyretail Anthias (female) (2)

Wrasses
Six-Line Wrasse
Carpenter's Flasher Wrasse
Longfin Fairy Wrasse
Exquisite Fairy Wrasse
Orange-Back Fairy Wrasse

Bassletts
Royal Gramma

Cardinalfish
Banggai Cardinalfish

Clownfish
Ocellaris Clownfish

Gobies
Tiger Watchman Goby

Other fish that I'd like to add but right now are excluded from the plan for fear of over-crowding (especially the large angel) are:

Angelfish, Large
Blue Girdled Angelfish (large juvenile)

Wrasses
Red Velvet Fairy Wrasse
McCosker's Flasher Wrasse
Whip Fin Fairy Wrasse

Cardinalfish
Spotted Cardinalfish
Orange Lined Cardinalfish

Would love to add the large angel and perhaps one or two more wrasses/cardinal. But again, I'm concerned with overcrowding, particularly as they grow. As I've been running the tank as reef since day one so I've had only a few fish in there...need to get some advice now that I'm stocking it as a fish-only.

Thanks

Monkeyfish · 05/04/2012, 11:43 AM

IMO most large angels will NOT do well in a 6' tank as they need more swimming room and can be very territorial, not too mention the bioload.

4 Butterflies and 2 tangs are gonna be too much for that tank IMO. Heniochus get huge and the Copperband might not fare to well with the tangs. Also, most Copperbands are finicky eaters so be prepared to offer a lot of mysis and live black worms if you do add one.

Any of the wrasses you have listed would do fine, but I'd avoid the 6 line as they become unholy terrors as they age.

FishDad2 · 05/04/2012, 07:03 PM

Agreed...the large angel is a stretch and I figured I might have to cut back on the butterflies.

The cbb will be the first acquisition...it's the fish that first attracted me to the hobby and I think this tank will give it a good shot at success. I'm already planning for the finiky eating. I'm hopeful that it will work out.

I like the heniochus but it will likely be the first sacrifice given its size. Was hoping I could do more butterflies but gotta live within the limits of the tank.

FishDad2 · 05/07/2012, 09:10 AM

I've been pondering that yellow tang as well. I've read that there can be concerns it won't get along with the CBB...some folks in here have agreed and others said not to worry. I like the yellow tang but I could also live with replacing it. I'd want a yellow fish though to keep the tank bright and colorful.

Perhaps I will drop the Heniochus & Tear Drop butterflies as well as the Yellow Tang...and add a Semilarvatus Butterfly (if I win the lottery) and White Tail Bristletooth Tang. So, replace two butterflies with one and drop the Yellow Tang in favor of a smaller and less aggressive tang.

JBarnes · 05/07/2012, 01:21 PM

Hey FishDad, I did a similar thing with my 240. Got tired of always worrying about the corals when I was gone on vacation. Moved my best stuff to a 30 gallon with my pair of breeding clowns and sold the rest of the corals off to pursue FOWLR. No more worries about dosing, nitrates, life is easier. Throw food in anytime you like.

I've got the following in my tank as a reference to what might work for you.

Blue Face Angel (large)
Purple Tang (med)
Tomini Tang (med)
Naso Tang (med)
Copper Band (med)
Hawaiian Long Nose (small)
Algae Blenny
3 Anthia's

I have 300 lbs of live rock a 40 gallon DSB with calupra and large skimmer.
Watching for a nice dog face puffer to add and then I'm done with my fish stocking. I think wrasses like green birds add alot of movement to the tank. Wish I would have purchased one of those when I had the chance.
Good luck, Jerry.

mattsilvester · 05/08/2012, 06:46 AM

Not sure how many times I've posted this recent, but here it goes again

First thing is to make a reaosnable assessment of how big a fish will get. As arule of thumb that is about 65% of the size listed on fish base.

Next, the tank should be 8 times longer than any fish, at its expected full captive size. In this case 72" / 8 = 9".

5 gallons of well (appropriately) aquascaped space should be provided per territorial medium-large bodied fish. But I would could only a depth of water equal to or less than the tank width. e.g. even though your tank is 30" tall, it is only 24" wide - so I would could it as 72"x24"x24" which is 180 gals: so in total, your fish (including thier tails) should not amount to more than 36" - and they should be in an appropraite variety of size, colours, shapes, and behaviours.

In your tank, that will ammount to (say) navarchus angel at say 7-8", a couple of tangs at say 4-6", a couple of butterflies at say 3-4", and a medium size wrasse at say 6". I think you will agree that is quite a lot.

Of course that doesn't mean stock smaller fish liberally and at will - sensbility needs to be applied there - but some fish like anthias, chromis, etc. are what I call "fillers".

From the list you gave, not including the "extras", I would say you could keep them all.
Angelfish, Dwarf
Flame Angelfish

Butterflyfish
Copperband Butterflyfish
Heniochus Butterflyfish
Auriga Butterflyfish
Tear Drop Butterflyfish

Tangs
Yellow Tang
Hippo Tang

Anthias
Lyretail Anthias (female) (2)

Wrasses
Six-Line Wrasse
Carpenter's Flasher Wrasse
Longfin Fairy Wrasse
Exquisite Fairy Wrasse
Orange-Back Fairy Wrasse

Bassletts
Royal Gramma

Cardinalfish
Banggai Cardinalfish

Clownfish
Ocellaris Clownfish

Gobies
Tiger Watchman Goby

FishDad2 · 05/08/2012, 08:53 AM

Excellent...thanks.

I'm pondering some alterations to the list but this gives something solid I can work with in making my decisions.

Looking at the list of fish I assume you'd lump everything below the Tangs in the "filler" category...Anthias, Wrasses, Bassletts, Cardinal, Clown and Goby...Agree?

WuHT · 05/09/2012, 11:16 PM

In 225 gallons, without too much rock where you actually lose swimming space, I dont have 4 butterflies and a couple of tangs to be outrageous. You've got a bunch of smaller fish which imo will add to the bioload equivalent to slightly under 3rd and 4th tang.

Since you've been keeping reefs you should be familiar with maintaining good water quality (generally in excess of what is "acceptable" in a fowlr") so all you've got to look out for is aggression.

FishDad2 · 05/10/2012, 02:13 PM

Well, it's time for the experiment to begin...LiveAquaria sent out an alert that Australian CBB's are in stock so I placed an order. My CBB and other butterflies arrive on Wednesday. Now I have to make sure the QT is in top shape and that I have all my needed supplies stocked.

05/03/2012, 10:03 AM	#1
FishDad2 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Northern NJ Posts: 662	FOWLR - How Many Fish I'm in the process of converting a well established 225 gallon reef tank to a FOWLR and, as I ponder the list of fish I want to add, I'm finding that the list is longer than the tank can hold. Not unexpected of course but I need to get the list down to a reasonable number of fish and need to consider both their size at acquisition and growth potential, among the usual factors of who plays nice together in the aquarium. In the old days, the rule of thumb for a beginner hobbiest starting a marine tank from scratch said a maximum of 1" of fish per 5 gallons of water...up to 1" per 10 gallons if you're stocking big fish like large angels, etc. I'm planning for a few butterflies but mostly smaller stuff so I can have lots of activity and a variety of colors. And again, there's loads of live rock and the tank has been in operation for ~6 years. So, what do you recommend as a guideline vis-a-vis total size/quantity of fish in an established 225 gallon FOWLR that also has a large sump, DSB filter and refugium attached? Thanks, Chris

05/03/2012, 12:23 PM	#3
sandwi54 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 1,772	The inch per gallon rule does not apply in marine tanks anymore, as stocking levels depend more on filtration and bioload capabilities, and more importantly, fish compatibilities. The best way to go about this is to post the fish you want to keep, and we will comment on them. __________________ 375g Envision FOWLR + 125g sump, Reef Octopus XP-5000 EXT, 2 x Vortech MP60W housing angels, tangs, and puffers. 110g Deep Sea Aquatics FOWLR housing angels, puffer, and butterflies. Current Tank Info: 375g FOWLR, 110g FOWLR

05/04/2012, 11:43 AM	#5
Monkeyfish Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Long Island (NY) Posts: 3,713	IMO most large angels will NOT do well in a 6' tank as they need more swimming room and can be very territorial, not too mention the bioload. 4 Butterflies and 2 tangs are gonna be too much for that tank IMO. Heniochus get huge and the Copperband might not fare to well with the tangs. Also, most Copperbands are finicky eaters so be prepared to offer a lot of mysis and live black worms if you do add one. Any of the wrasses you have listed would do fine, but I'd avoid the 6 line as they become unholy terrors as they age. __________________ Eric Over the years I've learned enough to know that I know very little and have a lot more to learn. Current Tank Info: 12g softie tank, 75g SPS reef, 180g softie tank

05/08/2012, 06:46 AM	#9
mattsilvester Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2000 Location: Bangkok, Thailand Posts: 3,282	Not sure how many times I've posted this recent, but here it goes again First thing is to make a reaosnable assessment of how big a fish will get. As arule of thumb that is about 65% of the size listed on fish base. Next, the tank should be 8 times longer than any fish, at its expected full captive size. In this case 72" / 8 = 9". 5 gallons of well (appropriately) aquascaped space should be provided per territorial medium-large bodied fish. But I would could only a depth of water equal to or less than the tank width. e.g. even though your tank is 30" tall, it is only 24" wide - so I would could it as 72"x24"x24" which is 180 gals: so in total, your fish (including thier tails) should not amount to more than 36" - and they should be in an appropraite variety of size, colours, shapes, and behaviours. In your tank, that will ammount to (say) navarchus angel at say 7-8", a couple of tangs at say 4-6", a couple of butterflies at say 3-4", and a medium size wrasse at say 6". I think you will agree that is quite a lot. Of course that doesn't mean stock smaller fish liberally and at will - sensbility needs to be applied there - but some fish like anthias, chromis, etc. are what I call "fillers". From the list you gave, not including the "extras", I would say you could keep them all. Angelfish, Dwarf Flame Angelfish Butterflyfish Copperband Butterflyfish Heniochus Butterflyfish Auriga Butterflyfish Tear Drop Butterflyfish Tangs Yellow Tang Hippo Tang Anthias Lyretail Anthias (female) (2) Wrasses Six-Line Wrasse Carpenter's Flasher Wrasse Longfin Fairy Wrasse Exquisite Fairy Wrasse Orange-Back Fairy Wrasse Bassletts Royal Gramma Cardinalfish Banggai Cardinalfish Clownfish Ocellaris Clownfish Gobies Tiger Watchman Goby __________________ Regards, Matt "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men." "Nemo mortalium omnibus horis sapit" - no man is at all times wise. "To a hammer, everything is a nail!" Current Tank Info: Mixed Reef with T5 HO

05/03/2012, 11:07 AM	#2
FishDad2 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Northern NJ Posts: 662	There's also a protein skimmer in the sump and I will continue using only RODI water. So water quality will be about as good as it gets.

05/03/2012, 12:44 PM	#4
FishDad2 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Northern NJ Posts: 662	Underlined names represent fish already owned. I will be removing the Yellow Tang, Anthias and Six-Line Wrasse to allow the CBB and other timid/delicate fish to fully acclimate before reintroducing the tang, etc. and/or adding other tank mates who might cause problems. As well, I will QT all new arrivals prior to adding them to the DT. Angelfish, Dwarf Flame Angelfish Butterflyfish Copperband Butterflyfish Heniochus Butterflyfish Auriga Butterflyfish Tear Drop Butterflyfish Tangs Yellow Tang Hippo Tang Anthias Lyretail Anthias (female) (2) Wrasses Six-Line Wrasse Carpenter's Flasher Wrasse Longfin Fairy Wrasse Exquisite Fairy Wrasse Orange-Back Fairy Wrasse Bassletts Royal Gramma Cardinalfish Banggai Cardinalfish Clownfish Ocellaris Clownfish Gobies Tiger Watchman Goby Other fish that I'd like to add but right now are excluded from the plan for fear of over-crowding (especially the large angel) are: Angelfish, Large Blue Girdled Angelfish (large juvenile) Wrasses Red Velvet Fairy Wrasse McCosker's Flasher Wrasse Whip Fin Fairy Wrasse Cardinalfish Spotted Cardinalfish Orange Lined Cardinalfish Would love to add the large angel and perhaps one or two more wrasses/cardinal. But again, I'm concerned with overcrowding, particularly as they grow. As I've been running the tank as reef since day one so I've had only a few fish in there...need to get some advice now that I'm stocking it as a fish-only. Thanks

05/04/2012, 07:03 PM	#6
FishDad2 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Northern NJ Posts: 662	Agreed...the large angel is a stretch and I figured I might have to cut back on the butterflies. The cbb will be the first acquisition...it's the fish that first attracted me to the hobby and I think this tank will give it a good shot at success. I'm already planning for the finiky eating. I'm hopeful that it will work out. I like the heniochus but it will likely be the first sacrifice given its size. Was hoping I could do more butterflies but gotta live within the limits of the tank.

05/07/2012, 09:10 AM	#7
FishDad2 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Northern NJ Posts: 662	I've been pondering that yellow tang as well. I've read that there can be concerns it won't get along with the CBB...some folks in here have agreed and others said not to worry. I like the yellow tang but I could also live with replacing it. I'd want a yellow fish though to keep the tank bright and colorful. Perhaps I will drop the Heniochus & Tear Drop butterflies as well as the Yellow Tang...and add a Semilarvatus Butterfly (if I win the lottery) and White Tail Bristletooth Tang. So, replace two butterflies with one and drop the Yellow Tang in favor of a smaller and less aggressive tang.

05/07/2012, 01:21 PM	#8
JBarnes Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Mead, Colorado Posts: 286	Hey FishDad, I did a similar thing with my 240. Got tired of always worrying about the corals when I was gone on vacation. Moved my best stuff to a 30 gallon with my pair of breeding clowns and sold the rest of the corals off to pursue FOWLR. No more worries about dosing, nitrates, life is easier. Throw food in anytime you like. I've got the following in my tank as a reference to what might work for you. Blue Face Angel (large) Purple Tang (med) Tomini Tang (med) Naso Tang (med) Copper Band (med) Hawaiian Long Nose (small) Algae Blenny 3 Anthia's I have 300 lbs of live rock a 40 gallon DSB with calupra and large skimmer. Watching for a nice dog face puffer to add and then I'm done with my fish stocking. I think wrasses like green birds add alot of movement to the tank. Wish I would have purchased one of those when I had the chance. Good luck, Jerry.

05/08/2012, 08:53 AM	#10
FishDad2 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Northern NJ Posts: 662	Excellent...thanks. I'm pondering some alterations to the list but this gives something solid I can work with in making my decisions. Looking at the list of fish I assume you'd lump everything below the Tangs in the "filler" category...Anthias, Wrasses, Bassletts, Cardinal, Clown and Goby...Agree?

05/09/2012, 11:16 PM	#11
WuHT Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 875	In 225 gallons, without too much rock where you actually lose swimming space, I dont have 4 butterflies and a couple of tangs to be outrageous. You've got a bunch of smaller fish which imo will add to the bioload equivalent to slightly under 3rd and 4th tang. Since you've been keeping reefs you should be familiar with maintaining good water quality (generally in excess of what is "acceptable" in a fowlr") so all you've got to look out for is aggression.

05/10/2012, 02:13 PM	#12
FishDad2 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Northern NJ Posts: 662	Well, it's time for the experiment to begin...LiveAquaria sent out an alert that Australian CBB's are in stock so I placed an order. My CBB and other butterflies arrive on Wednesday. Now I have to make sure the QT is in top shape and that I have all my needed supplies stocked.