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Old 04/29/2012, 01:17 PM   #1
hvacman250
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"First Night Death" syndrome

I read about this on MOFIB. This seems to be what I am experiencing. Of about 600 that hatch, 150 seem to free swim after hatching and growout fine; the rest hit the bottom immediately after hatching. They are most definately alive on the bottom. If I shine a light on them, them seem to twitch off the botom, but settle back. In the morning after hatch, they are dead. The remaining ones growout fine.

Parents have spawned 15-20 times and are very well fed. Rods food, NLS pellets, enriched Spirulina brine, Formula One/two, etc 4-6 times a day. Parent tank is 80.5-81.5 so they hatch day 8. I pull them a couple hours before hatching, run 8 gallons of parent water thru a UV sterilizer slow (25W @ around 100 GPH flow rate) and put them in a sterile 10g w/ airstone and heater. Rotifers are added,water is tinted green, and CloramX is added.

What causes this? What can I try?


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Old 04/29/2012, 02:27 PM   #2
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I've just tried this on Friday, tank water from the parents tank, no green water or rots until the next. I think the greenwater kills them as this has happened way to many times before to me. But this is my experience and others have their own. I only had a small hatch and theres a bunch that are still going strong today. Don't add any chemicals is my first bit of advice...


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Old 04/30/2012, 07:38 PM   #3
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What causes this is subject to several theories.
What to do: http://www.marinebreeder.org/forums/...p=94060#p94060


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Old 04/30/2012, 08:08 PM   #4
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What causes this is subject to several theories.
What to do: http://www.marinebreeder.org/forums/...p=94060#p94060
Thanks for the help on MOFIB.

I am trying to source erythromycin from a vet.

How much bleach do I put in 5 gallons of water?

So I set up 5 gallons of 1.010 aged saltwater. Add x amount of bleach and 125 mg of erythromycin. Transfer eggs before hatching. Bubble like normal until hatching is complete.

I dont add anything to neutralize the bleach?


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Old 04/30/2012, 10:39 PM   #5
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what type of lighting are you using? how much water do you keep in the 10 gallon?

can we see a picture of your setup?

adding chemicals is a very bad idea. stability is more important. it's better to have them in poor parent water then to be playing around with the parameters.

they can live for 2-3 days off the yolk. it's not starvation and it's not transfer damage. it's definitely something you are doing.


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Old 04/30/2012, 11:20 PM   #6
Luis A M
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hvacman250 View Post
Thanks for the help on MOFIB.

I am trying to source erythromycin from a vet.

How much bleach do I put in 5 gallons of water?

So I set up 5 gallons of 1.010 aged saltwater. Add x amount of bleach and 125 mg of erythromycin. Transfer eggs before hatching. Bubble like normal until hatching is complete.

I dont add anything to neutralize the bleach?
Oh yes,I took it for granted!
Sterilizing with Cl overnight is followed by neutralizing with Thiosulphate.
1 ml of bleach /gal.is fine.


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Old 05/01/2012, 05:27 AM   #7
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what type of lighting are you using? how much water do you keep in the 10 gallon?

can we see a picture of your setup?

adding chemicals is a very bad idea. stability is more important. it's better to have them in poor parent water then to be playing around with the parameters.

they can live for 2-3 days off the yolk. it's not starvation and it's not transfer damage. it's definitely something you are doing.
Remember, they are dying overnight within 8-10 hours of hatch. That automatically eliminates lighting/food. Lights out are at 10pm. I typically do dark until 7 am, but have done a blue small CFL in the center of the room as a moonlight with no change.

I dont have any pictures at the moment, but my setup is the same as 80% of everybody elses. 10g with 5-6 g starting out. 50w heater and airstone. Tile with eggs. I can almost guarantee you its not the set-up. Like I said, I can raise 150 fry/hatch to sellable size just like every other novice you see on this board; I want to raise 5-700 per hatch.

Sushi, google "MPD, first night death syndrome". Apparantly other breeders are plagued by it as well.


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Old 05/01/2012, 11:02 AM   #8
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Remember, they are dying overnight within 8-10 hours of hatch. That automatically eliminates lighting/food. Lights out are at 10pm. I typically do dark until 7 am, but have done a blue small CFL in the center of the room as a moonlight with no change.

I dont have any pictures at the moment, but my setup is the same as 80% of everybody elses. 10g with 5-6 g starting out. 50w heater and airstone. Tile with eggs. I can almost guarantee you its not the set-up. Like I said, I can raise 150 fry/hatch to sellable size just like every other novice you see on this board; I want to raise 5-700 per hatch.

Sushi, google "MPD, first night death syndrome". Apparantly other breeders are plagued by it as well.
Are these the same breeders recommending that you nuke fragile fry with harsh chemicals? Don't be so quick to write off the lighting...

I run 24 hour lighting the first day. I don't want the fry settling down immediate after hatch. I want them hunting and active. My fry don't get a dark period until day 2. Why don't you try keeping them active like I do?

No one listens to me but I swear by my slow-drip fry tank. Here's a link. When you suddenly get 100% success rates, you know who to thank. : )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLVDyjDNtOQ


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Old 05/01/2012, 11:44 AM   #9
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Are these the same breeders recommending that you nuke fragile fry with harsh chemicals? Don't be so quick to write off the lighting...

I run 24 hour lighting the first day. I don't want the fry settling down immediate after hatch. I want them hunting and active. My fry don't get a dark period until day 2. Why don't you try keeping them active like I do?

No one listens to me but I swear by my slow-drip fry tank. Here's a link. When you suddenly get 100% success rates, you know who to thank. : )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLVDyjDNtOQ
I'm totally not being unappreciative. I really do thank everybody for any input. I've tried about every possible scenario over the past 12 months (so about 24 spawns) and this seems to be the hang-up.

I also run 24 hour lighting for the first couple days. Remember, though, my problem is with the first 8 hours after hatch. About 25% are normal; the other 75% seems to have a neurological/some other defect. As soon as they hatch, they settle to the bottom. If you light them up, they twitch off the bottom, do a couple spins, and settle back down. Ive tried a low wattage CFL directly at the tanks surface, same light diffused, over head ceiling fan light, blue CFLs for moonlights (both at the tank and at the ceiling). Ive tried every possible lighting scenario, but I need to figure out what is physically wrong with the doomed fry. I really dont think there is another lighting scenario to try. FYI, lights out is 10 pm. Fry hatch between 10-12 pm. By 6 am the "doomed" ones are dead. This cant be from lighting or starvation. They look good when they are on the bottom, its almost like they dont have the strength to swim. Parents are well fed; 4-6 times a day with a variety of quality food. At 80.5*, hatch is 8 days, so there is egg sack left. Maybe its genetic with the parents ???

The drip method is a method Ive been planning to implement for a year or more, but I have no room currently. With 10 pairs of clowns, 18 growout tanks, and 4 fry tanks, there is just no room.

Next hatch is am going to try sterilizing the equipment with Clorox but rinse well. Setup as normal with .0265 parent water thru the UV as normal, BUT lower the water to 1.020ish by hatch. Then no rots or greenwater until morning.


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Old 05/01/2012, 01:54 PM   #10
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Setup as normal with .0265 parent water thru the UV as normal, BUT lower the water to 1.020ish by hatch. Then no rots or greenwater until morning.
I keep the parents water at 1.024. That way I can feed rotifers at 1.018 to my fry without having to worry about the rotifers or the fry going into shock.

I don't begin to lower the salinity for a month and even then I only drop it to 1.022.

I hear you about running out of room. But this is one thing I make room for. As you can see, I just use a little wire rack. It needs to be next to a stable system for all of 3 weeks until I can get them off rotifers and onto a sponge filter.


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Old 05/01/2012, 02:06 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by ClownfishSushi View Post
Are these the same breeders recommending that you nuke fragile fry with harsh chemicals? Don't be so quick to write off the lighting...

I run 24 hour lighting the first day. I don't want the fry settling down immediate after hatch. I want them hunting and active. My fry don't get a dark period until day 2. Why don't you try keeping them active like I do?

No one listens to me but I swear by my slow-drip fry tank. Here's a link. When you suddenly get 100% success rates, you know who to thank. : )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLVDyjDNtOQ

You are my new mentor! I like your thinking.


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Old 05/01/2012, 02:24 PM   #12
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I keep the parents water at 1.024. That way I can feed rotifers at 1.018 to my fry without having to worry about the rotifers or the fry going into shock.

I don't begin to lower the salinity for a month and even then I only drop it to 1.022.

I hear you about running out of room. But this is one thing I make room for. As you can see, I just use a little wire rack. It needs to be next to a stable system for all of 3 weeks until I can get them off rotifers and onto a sponge filter.
My whole fish room runs at 1.020. A happy medium.

I stop rotifers at day 7 and add a sponge filter then. At day 7 they are eating NHBBS and TDO B1 at day 10. I have them at sellable size in 4 months.

If I can get this bug worked out, I'll be set. I lose 1% or less after day 1. The first 8 hours is whats troubling me.


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Old 05/01/2012, 02:36 PM   #13
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The only way I have overcome this is to let the nest hatch in the DT and then use a snagger I made to get them. Then I transfer them to a tank I have ready with display water.


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Old 05/01/2012, 02:55 PM   #14
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The only way I have overcome this is to let the nest hatch in the DT and then use a snagger I made to get them. Then I transfer them to a tank I have ready with display water.
I wish I could. Pajama cardinals eat them within inches of the nest. Been there, done that in the beginning.


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Old 05/02/2012, 06:20 AM   #15
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You are my new mentor! I like your thinking.
Sweet.


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Old 05/02/2012, 09:51 AM   #16
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I wish I could. Pajama cardinals eat them within inches of the nest. Been there, done that in the beginning.
Don't know if this helps but I had the same problem with my cardinals eating them when trying to use a snagger but I found by covering the tank with a bed sheet and keeping it completely dark for about 20 minute the cardinals would go to sleep then i would turn on the led for the snagger it had to be completely dark though if there was any light in the room at all they would catch the fry


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Old 05/02/2012, 10:44 AM   #17
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Don't know if this helps but I had the same problem with my cardinals eating them when trying to use a snagger but I found by covering the tank with a bed sheet and keeping it completely dark for about 20 minute the cardinals would go to sleep then i would turn on the led for the snagger it had to be completely dark though if there was any light in the room at all they would catch the fry
How do yours "sleep"? I thought all cardinals are nocturnal. My house stays pitch black after 10 pm, but anytime I visit the tank with a flashlight the cardinals are always on the hunt in the darkness.

During the day they seem to hover in one spot and chill, but at darktime they are active.


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Old 05/02/2012, 10:57 AM   #18
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I may be on to something. I just pulled all my notes for the past year of spawning. When the parents are on a 14 day cycle (8 day hatch, 6 days later laying) the hatch/survival numbers are great.

The past 6 cycles have gone like this (in the form of days tohatch/days later laying):
8/3
8/6
8/4
8/3
8/3
8/3

So the past 3 cycles, or the ones that have given me fits, they only waited 3 days between hatching and laying. Maybe this is caused poor egg quality? Why are they even doing this?


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Old 05/02/2012, 11:05 AM   #19
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sorry its not much help with the cardinals thats the way mine are as i said it only works if i cover the tank any light at all seems to keep them active
sorry i cant help with your other post but it looks like you could be on to something good luck


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Old 05/04/2012, 12:04 PM   #20
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Wow I have not posted in here for ages :-)

Hola Luis, hermano!

Try to feed a little bit more squid in diet , not much just a bit. Antibiotics like the ones suggested by Luis do not harm the fish. It does not matter how you set the lights as long as it is not too bright, ambient light is fine.

Since I have been lost for a while here a link to my company, we raise about 2000 clowns , dottybacks and gobies every week.

http://www.addy-zone.com

The E


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Old 05/04/2012, 09:44 PM   #21
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Hola Edgar!
Didn´t hear from you since you went to France...But I saw some pics of your hatchery when Matt W.and Tal visited.
There are many ways to breed fish,some work for some, but not for others.I try to show respect for other people´s methods even if they seem wrong to me.


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Old 05/09/2012, 08:28 PM   #22
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Are you having the trouble with the same pair of clowns or different pairs?

I am having the same trouble with my gsm, tomatoes and I think my Darwin's as well. I would get about 90% death like you hvac. I feed mine very well too. I have my own recipe and I do use squid too. I keep a low watt bulb on for 3 days also and same mass death Happening. I do bleach my tanks out after each use and I rinse with vinegar and water after that to clean lit the residue. I don't feed or tint till next morning either unless I am up anxiously waiting for them to hatch. I think is glorious to see them hatch. Like I am 8 all over opening all my transformers I got from Santa!!
Sushi I am gonna send you a pm. Hope you figure it out and if I find out I will drop you a line. Good luck.


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Old 05/09/2012, 09:50 PM   #23
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I think mine is a parent issue, but I didnt get to experiment this hatch. The idiots laid 2 days after hatching. I thought it was 3 (which is what they have been doing when I have mass die-off quick), so I went to pull the eggs tonight and they must have hatched last night.

So after an 8 day hatch, they laid 2 days later. Maybe them not waiting the full 6 days to lay after hatching is turning up poor quality eggs. Maybe the energy to hatch is wiping them out? Pure speculation though.

Quote:
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Are you having the trouble with the same pair of clowns or different pairs?

I am having the same trouble with my gsm, tomatoes and I think my Darwin's as well. I would get about 90% death like you hvac. I feed mine very well too. I have my own recipe and I do use squid too. I keep a low watt bulb on for 3 days also and same mass death Happening. I do bleach my tanks out after each use and I rinse with vinegar and water after that to clean lit the residue. I don't feed or tint till next morning either unless I am up anxiously waiting for them to hatch. I think is glorious to see them hatch. Like I am 8 all over opening all my transformers I got from Santa!!
Sushi I am gonna send you a pm. Hope you figure it out and if I find out I will drop you a line. Good luck.


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Old 05/11/2012, 08:48 PM   #24
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Back to an 11 day spawn.

Is anybody else having frequent spawnings like this? I thought 14 days was pretty common.


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Old 05/12/2012, 10:49 AM   #25
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my last spawning pair were on an 8 day schedule. From eggs to spawn 8 days, it was no longer than 7 days before a new clutch was laid. I had it timed to the hour when they hatched. My black o's hatched 8 days but took 12 days after the hatch to lay another batch.


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