Reef Central Online Community

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > General Interest Forums > Responsible Reefkeeping
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
Thread Tools
Old 01/21/2012, 12:43 AM   #76
Made4water
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 52
Never knew this side of the hobby.


Made4water is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/21/2012, 09:46 PM   #77
Agioniko
Registered Member
 
Agioniko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 133
Interesting thread!


Agioniko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/23/2012, 01:44 PM   #78
psychobilly
Registered Member
 
psychobilly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Oklahoma City ,Ok
Posts: 74
We always try to buy captive bred or aquacultured.


psychobilly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/23/2012, 06:57 PM   #79
alcoolaid
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 52
Never knew anything about this as well... until now


__________________
125G (72x18x22) | 3x 20G Sump | DIY 152 LED setup | Mag 9.5 | SRO XP2000 | 2x MP40wES | Neptune Apex | Marine Magic Triple Pump Doser
alcoolaid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02/21/2012, 03:27 PM   #80
CynicalCnidaria
Registered Member
 
CynicalCnidaria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Not in Kansas... anymore?
Posts: 45
I think that removing fish from the wild- no matter how you look at it- is bad. If you remove a fish from the wild, it is just as good to the ocean as killing it. The fish will be out of the breeding population, and that is what counts...

I admit to not following my morals very cleanly, but I think that tank bread and aquacultured is the ONLY way to go if you wish to preserve this hobby for future generations. You can say "who cares" or "aren't reefs dying already," but ultimately you may choose what you want to do... and hopefully you aren't gonna further aggravate a situation.

In terms of the first post on this thread- yes I agree that if fish are to be taken out of the wild they might as well be kept alive, and that sort of wasteful killing is saddening. Perhaps if more conservative and conscious collection techniques were employed, then they could only take a smaller margin of fish collected without having to worry about them dying.

Do not get me wrong- I have broken every one of my own rules- I have killed fish(wild ones), and I have made poor decisions. This thread just now has made me more dedicated and motivated to abstain from buying non captive bread or "used" fish.

I applaud the members here for their concern with the sustainability of this hobby and the responsibility each and every one of us must take.

Keep it up!


CynicalCnidaria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02/21/2012, 08:18 PM   #81
jimmy frag
Registered Member
 
jimmy frag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: burlington ontario
Posts: 847
vary enjoyable read. everyone kept their cool. nice


jimmy frag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02/21/2012, 08:47 PM   #82
chilwil84
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: down the shore
Posts: 790
this thread goes on yet it was started by someone who only started and posted to this thread kinda phishy.


chilwil84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02/21/2012, 09:09 PM   #83
Rocky_Mtn_Reef
Moved On
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 66
Interesting. I have been to a wholesaler before and there shipment only had maybe 15% loss. Could be the location, climate, etc. I could 100% absolutley believe this though. Especially if it was in the colder time of the year.


Rocky_Mtn_Reef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02/22/2012, 11:18 AM   #84
rpjaws74
Registered Member
 
rpjaws74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northeast- El Paso,Tx.
Posts: 1,294
sad but all true..


__________________
rpjaws

Current Tank Info: 500 glln soft coral tank
rpjaws74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03/18/2012, 12:32 PM   #85
ivans75
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
Posts: 340
okay let me tell you a story before your corals even arrived at your LFS and their wholesalers.

I work as a freelancer and consultant in a coral exporter company. I am working and designing their holding system and treatment tank. I also own an LFS as a side business. I got my corals from exporters and direct from collectors in many parts of Indonesia.

The cruelty have started from the collection point. These corals were collected and placed in a 7" deep pool with minimal filtration. Ammonia/nitrate on these pools can go more than 100 ppm in value. Bad looking corals i.e slightly bleached are thrown away instantly in the bin. And in 2 days time, these corals will then be shipped to "holders". These holders hold permits to transport corals to exporters. Here, the corals are treated better, better pools, better filtration, but still minimum. And sometime in less than 24 hours, these corals are already sold to the exporters. Hundreds or even thousand of them to some 20 exporters in Indonesia.

Then in these exporters facility, the corals are well...treated much better. (mostly big companies, they have the money to run the system) Pools with skimmer, some with chillers. Some exporters do care and invest in equipment. But some dont even care. I've seen mountain of dead coral pieces piling up with strong pungent odor in one of coral exporter.

Then these corals are sorted and packed quickly sometimes with no water. Anemones, elegance corals and few LPS are not packed with water or very small amount of water to lessen the cost of air freight. The exporter that I work with, usually ship around 500 kg of corals or around 20 sytrofoam boxes of corals for each shipment. And you know what? Usually 10 percent of the shipment is rejected. If its 500 kg of shipment, then 50 kg of coral pieces/frags are rejected and no matter dead or alive, they go the rubish bin.

Fish is even worst.
Lets take a look at one of our favourite fish to export. Blue damsel. Yes. These fish are selling like popcorn in movie theatre. Hundreds of these fish are kept in a 75 cm sytrofoam box with only aerator for their live supports. There are dead fish and no one seems to care to collect. When they are bagged, they just replace the water with one go without aclimating them. Some will arrive dead in your country and some will arrive half dead. Those are dead and half dead will be thrown away and claim as DOA.

Cruel sad but thats the business. I wish I can do something about it.
I am happy tho that the exporter that I am currently working with do care about this and we are designing a new system in our own holding facility to care about these animals in a more humane manner so we can show it to our client that we are treating our livestock with utmost respect and concern. But guess we can only do it on our own but have no power to prevent these cruelties as a whole.


__________________
Live coral supplier and seller in Jakarta.
ivans75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03/18/2012, 12:33 PM   #86
ivans75
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
Posts: 340
okay let me tell you a story before your corals even arrived at your LFS and their wholesalers.

I work as a freelancer and consultant in a coral exporter company. I am working and designing their holding system and treatment tank. I also own an LFS as a side business. I got my corals from exporters and direct from collectors in many parts of Indonesia.

The cruelty have started from the collection point. These corals were collected and placed in a 7" deep pool with minimal filtration. Ammonia/nitrate on these pools can go more than 100 ppm in value. Bad looking corals i.e slightly bleached are thrown away instantly in the bin. And in 2 days time, these corals will then be shipped to "holders". These holders hold permits to transport corals to exporters. Here, the corals are treated better, better pools, better filtration, but still minimum. And sometime in less than 24 hours, these corals are already sold to the exporters. Hundreds or even thousand of them to some 20 exporters in Indonesia.

Then in these exporters facility, the corals are well...treated much better. (mostly big companies, they have the money to run the system) Pools with skimmer, some with chillers. Some exporters do care and invest in equipment. But some dont even care. I've seen mountain of dead coral pieces piling up with strong pungent odor in one of coral exporter.

Then these corals are sorted and packed quickly sometimes with no water. Anemones, elegance corals and few LPS are not packed with water or very small amount of water to lessen the cost of air freight. The exporter that I work with, usually ship around 500 kg of corals or around 20 sytrofoam boxes of corals for each shipment. And you know what? Usually 10 percent of the shipment is rejected. If its 500 kg of shipment, then 50 kg of coral pieces/frags are rejected and no matter dead or alive, they go the rubish bin.

Fish is even worst.
Lets take a look at one of our favourite fish to export. Blue damsel. Yes. These fish are selling like popcorn in movie theatre. Hundreds of these fish are kept in a 75 cm sytrofoam box with only aerator for their live supports. There are dead fish and no one seems to care to collect. When they are bagged, they just replace the water with one go without aclimating them. Some will arrive dead in your country and some will arrive half dead. Those are dead and half dead will be thrown away and claim as DOA.

Cruel sad but thats the business. I wish I can do something about it.
I am happy tho that the exporter that I am currently working with do care about this and we are designing a new system in our own holding facility to care about these animals in a more humane manner so we can show it to our client that we are treating our livestock with utmost respect and concern. But guess we can only do it on our own but have no power to prevent these cruelties as a whole.


__________________
Live coral supplier and seller in Jakarta.
ivans75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03/18/2012, 06:43 PM   #87
rpjaws74
Registered Member
 
rpjaws74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northeast- El Paso,Tx.
Posts: 1,294
I guess it only takes one to start a trend. So Ivan I think you are making a small difference. Maybe you should mention the Exporter you work with this way LFS can start demanding or choosing what exporter they want to get there fish from. Good thread!!


__________________
rpjaws

Current Tank Info: 500 glln soft coral tank
rpjaws74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03/19/2012, 07:53 AM   #88
ivans75
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
Posts: 340
Unfortunately I cant name them. But this practice is common and normal for this industry. Especially here.


__________________
Live coral supplier and seller in Jakarta.
ivans75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04/16/2012, 12:08 AM   #89
Finisher604
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 10
Ouch a touchy subject for sure


Finisher604 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/05/2012, 07:45 AM   #90
markaren
Registered Member
 
markaren's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Clermont ,Florida
Posts: 635
Some how this reminds me of hunting Deer. This is a good thing that seems bad...let me explain with deer anyway. The hunters are very educated about deer...they contribute to their survival through control. The hunters are the ones that sit a lifetime in the silent woods enjoying nature "completely"...the deer is rare to see for the most part. We have no wild cats or wolves like we used to. Deer populate without control, and disease. Deer are responsible for more human deaths than any other animal on the planet. Example: Mom driving sees a deer (or squirrel) and thinks "oh no...cute deer and instead of hitting the animal she steers left into another car perhaps killing both or right into a tree killing herself and her children are left without. The deer can be hit by a car and live...they are amazingly tough. I digress.

Our hobby is the reason for the above posts. And that is quite a bit different than the deer scenario and the hunter that ensures population through taking a deer. A fish may live its live in the ocean with predators or live a life in a take without. Odd balance of reality it might be to justify 'is this a good thing or a bad thing'...I think as touched on that it is good. Our systems are advancing like crazy compared to 20 years ago. As I read I seem to sense that responsible harvesting will promote ethical following. I would personally pay more for the very same fish if I new the chain of purchase was a published treatment advantage to responsible harvesting. This is how free enterprise works best without regulation. Just the truth ...and good people make good decisions. We just need to know who treats the fish badly and we won't buy from them. Most of us have enough money to not be cheap or we could not afford to do this anyway, right? We can only have a hand full of fish so ...lets spend on fish with a few more questions at purchase time. We can not do this without a whistle blower to let us know who the bads ones are ...right? ...right



Last edited by markaren; 05/05/2012 at 07:48 AM. Reason: spelling
markaren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/05/2012, 11:06 AM   #91
albano
SALTWATER since '73
 
albano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Katonah, NY/ San Fernando Ca./ Sea Isle City NJ/ Port St. Lucie, Fl./ Troupsburg, NY
Posts: 4,205
Quote:
Originally Posted by markaren View Post
...let me explain with deer anyway. The hunters are very educated about deer...
MAYBE, SOME hunters are!
BTW ...Do they wear an orange vest so that a deer doesn't shoot them, by accident?
Quote:
Originally Posted by markaren View Post
Deer are responsible for more human deaths than any other animal on the planet.
Do you have a link to that info...I question that 'statistic'...MAYBE in the US, but 'on the PLANET' ?
I found lists online that don't even include deer in the top 10...but, then again...they didn't have any info about Dingos eating babies, either!


__________________
sent from my computer, using 'my fingers'
______________________________________

Jan. '11 TOTM Manhattan Reefs

Current Tank Info: 450g DT/770g reef system
albano is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05/05/2012, 03:11 PM   #92
markaren
Registered Member
 
markaren's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Clermont ,Florida
Posts: 635
They are educated about how to hunt deer. Non hunters think it is a walk in the park and deer are hopping playfully all around. Deer meat is not injected with hormones. It is very lean natural meat. In a typical year, Bambi is responsible for around 130 times more deaths than alligator, bear,, shark or snake combined in the US. Why is this? Because while deer do not have sharp teeth or claws, but the alarming habit of stepping out in front of cars." I found many links. Deer in the USA are Huge. Control through hunting is the only way to avoid over population, disease, massive crop damage, human deaths. Like it...you may not...feelings are feelings but facts about hunting and control are reality. I hunted deer with a Camera for years...I never got a single picture. Non hunters have absolutely no idea about the subject. Just feelings about how cute they are.This is not argumentative. Walt Disney introduced Bambi to humanize the animal. He was known to dislike hunting. Most hunters are ethical, all of the meat is consumed. A shot is not made unless it will drop the deer instantly.
I found many links...these are just two.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deer-vehicle_collisions

http://www.streetdirectory.com/trave...ed_states.html



Last edited by markaren; 05/05/2012 at 03:12 PM. Reason: spelling
markaren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/05/2012, 05:18 PM   #93
billsreef
Moderator
10 & Over Club
 
billsreef's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Long Island, NY/North Miami
Posts: 35,019
Comparing managed recreational hunting to commercial fisheries isn't a very good comparison. In one case your talking about people going out and harvesting a small number of animals per year for personal consumption, in other we're talking about harvesting as many animals per day as possible as a business. Commercial fisheries is more akin to the old time buffalo hunts that nearly wiped that species off the face of the planet.


__________________
Bill

"LOL, well I have no brain apparently. " - dc (Debi)

Current Tank Info: Far too many tanks according to my wife, LOL.
billsreef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/05/2012, 08:08 PM   #94
markaren
Registered Member
 
markaren's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Clermont ,Florida
Posts: 635
I agree. It only reminded me of hunting. Hunting is responsible control. The other is not...YET. perhaps it will be some day


markaren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/13/2012, 08:46 PM   #95
nine8taco
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: navarre fl
Posts: 69
its definitely shocking how many fish are killed in this process, ive seen posts like this before and it sucks!


nine8taco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/14/2012, 09:38 PM   #96
James77
Calmer than you are....

 
James77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 8,063
Quote:
Originally Posted by markaren View Post
I would personally pay more for the very same fish if I new the chain of purchase was a published treatment advantage to responsible harvesting. This is how free enterprise works best without regulation. Just the truth ...and good people make good decisions. We just need to know who treats the fish badly and we won't buy from them. Most of us have enough money to not be cheap or we could not afford to do this anyway, right? We can only have a hand full of fish so ...lets spend on fish with a few more questions at purchase time. We can not do this without a whistle blower to let us know who the bads ones are ...right? ...right
I'd fully agree and buy more expensive fish, howver the vast majority of people out there will go for the cheap price. 2 tangs in a tank, one twice the price of the other.....how many people do you think would go for the expensive one?

Free enterprise or free markets are great, but in some circumstances they are not. In the effort to get the lowest possible price to consumers to undercut competiton, shortcuts may be taken. No big deal with inanimate objects, but when vast amounts of fish die it is a little disturbing. Animals have been hunted and captured to extinction many, many times because of no regulation....greed wins. Some very simple regulations could be put in place with harsh penalties for not following them....problem solved so long as the requiremnets don't look anything like our tax code .


__________________
Jim

Current Tank Info: 120g SPS and 75g Planted
James77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/15/2012, 10:37 AM   #97
kissman
Registered Member
 
kissman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Waynesboro, Va
Posts: 2,530
i think i would have changed supplier


kissman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/16/2012, 04:19 PM   #98
feh
Registered Member
 
feh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Atlanta area
Posts: 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamOne1 View Post
I have worked at the LFS for over 15 years and wanted to share an experience I had at the largest fish wholesaler in the Chicagoland area in order to inform people on how fish are shipped. My coworker and I had gone to the wholesaler to pick out stock for the store. This is a warehouse-sized facility and we had finished and were waiting for our stock to be bagged, boxed and billed. As we were waiting the workers started wheeling out all these 30-50 gallon garbage cans into the aisles of holding tanks (2-3 cans per aisle). Then stacks of boxes were wheeled in. The workers opened the boxes and started sorting through them. With great speed they threw the bags of dead fish in the garbage and the live ones in the tanks. Most of the bags contained so little water the fish were swimming on their sides (water is heavy and costs a lot to ship). We were shocked that they would toss powder blue tangs and emperor angels into tanks like they were little beach balls. But the really horrifying part was how many bags of fish were immediately thrown into the garbage. Well over half the fish (enough to stock a second warehouse) were DOA. By the end, the garbage cans were full with dead saltwater fish. This was clearly just part of their routine. We were not supposed to be in there when they got their shipment in and the owner was livid that we saw this. I am still horrified that I am part of the reason this happens.



feh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/16/2012, 06:13 PM   #99
albano
SALTWATER since '73
 
albano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Katonah, NY/ San Fernando Ca./ Sea Isle City NJ/ Port St. Lucie, Fl./ Troupsburg, NY
Posts: 4,205
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamOne1 View Post
I have worked at the LFS for over 15 years and wanted to share an experience I had at the largest fish wholesaler in the Chicagoland area
I find it 'strange' that JamOne1 was only on RC for ~ a month...started this thread, then gone !!!



W A I T.... Chicago!...think I've said too much, already!


__________________
sent from my computer, using 'my fingers'
______________________________________

Jan. '11 TOTM Manhattan Reefs

Current Tank Info: 450g DT/770g reef system
albano is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05/16/2012, 08:29 PM   #100
syrinx
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: champaign
Posts: 3,037
Yes it is fishy-he obviously was posting either to inflame- or because he was inflamed. I think the latter for two reasons-#1 this is the most emotional forum of RC and #2 I have been to the same place hundreds of times as well as others up there- and some shipments do come in in such condition. I cannot say the rough handling is constant-because I did see proper acclimation often. However if a shipment has sat on the tarmac at Ohare after being delayed forever- you have to save what you can by just throwing them in.


syrinx is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
My first large tank, what do I need to know? Dante_JoseCuerv Large Reef Tanks 17 04/26/2010 01:14 AM
large naso tang for sale atlantisaquari Alabama Reefers 12 04/15/2010 07:57 PM
WTB Large Sump Jboulerice Florida Marine Aquarium Society (FMAS) - Miami/Ft. Lauderdale 2 02/24/2010 10:50 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:22 AM.


TapaTalk Enabled

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright 1999-2014