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Old 05/05/2012, 08:02 PM   #1
Euler Kernighan
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Thumbs up LED, driver & controller, power supply: advice for a large reeftank

Hello LED DIY'ers and Masters!

I really need your help and expertise here! I'm working in a large reef tank >>> http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2003931 <<< and the illumination phase arrived.

At the beginning of this project was considered MH+T5 combo (it was based on my experience back on '02) , but nowadays i'm really excited to play around with LED. still a newbie on this LED world but loving this thing.

I spent a lot of time researching here at RC and learnt a lot from:

DIY LEDs - The write-up - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...php?p=18488741
Arduino with display for DWZM's CAT4101 LED drivers - http://mail1.reefcentral.com/forums/...php?p=18847574
Who wants a cheap, simple, Arduino-based LED controller? - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1847680
DIY LED driver for reef lighting - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1759758

But I have to confess that i'm really confused about:
  • LED color ratio: blues (royal and blue), whites (cool or neutral), red, green, violet, cyan
  • secondary optics options
  • power supply
  • drivers - MW 'regular' dimm ones or CAT4101, LM3409HV controlled by Arduino board. Intend to dimm each color.
  • thinking about 8.46"x 12" heatsink - 36 to 42 LEDs on it - two or four coolers.
  • find a realiable LED reseller with a good customer service/support

As I said I know nothing about LED and i'm ready to strictly follow your advices!


btw, that's the LED layout that i'm planning






Thanks in advance!


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Old 05/05/2012, 08:08 PM   #2
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... just found this valuable information (i guess):

Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneG View Post
Just some food for thought here...



This is a photo from a Japanese LED reefing site showing the spectrum of the sun, along with (what I believe to be) the spectral peaks for optimal coral coloration.

For comparison, here's what cool white and royal blue looks like according to the same website:



It's a little ridiculous to expect good results in terms of color when so much is lacking here. Mainly, it's lacking ~650nm, ~420nm, 500nm and in UV. As opposed to RGB, I would suggest adding a deep red LED that peaks around 650nm (ex. the Osram 660nm 3w- most commonly used red LEDs are in the ~620-640nm range, so they won't work for filling in that gap), an LED that peaks around 420nm (the SemiLED BlueViolet is the only one I know of- 415-420nm), and an LED that peaks around 500nm (the 3w Cyan Rebel is the only one I know of- the "Cree blues" commonly used to fill in this gap are 465-485nm, which won't completely work). I'm not completely sure about the need for UV yet (I haven't done enough research on this, although I've heard that the colorful coral "sunscreen" is in fact transparent- but again, I don't really know). However, these 3 LEDs (when mixed with Neutral White and Royal Blue) should give stunning results for coloration/aesthetics.
what do you guys think about this?


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Old 05/05/2012, 08:10 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneG View Post
That's what I would personally recommend, but they all need to be in a good ratio. I have yet to try this out myself (I will soon, however), but some reefers in Japan have had great success by using "full spectrum" LED lighting like this. Here's an example of one that uses a similar LED combination. According to the owner of the tank, it has been under LEDs for over a year... his results are spectacular.




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Old 05/05/2012, 08:33 PM   #4
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Not sure if any of this will help you, but I just finished my led setup. I have a 210g (72x24x30h)... Below is the diagram I used. The heat sinks are 8.5x18" and are about 14" above the water. I used 10 inventronics drivers to drive all led's on 6 channels. I'm disappointed in the incentronics as I thought I could dim them more than they do. I would suggest meanwells instead. I get really good spectrum with them all around 85-90% ramped up. I did go thru a brown phase when I swapped out, but the color is quickly coming back. I had mh's before. I can say this...there's no comparison with the shimmur of the leds. Makes a huge difference...and the royal blues make everything pop! If you have any specific things I can help with, just ask...

Scott.






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Old 05/06/2012, 07:48 AM   #5
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Hey Scott, thank you and WOW!!!!

what about the intensity at the moment of the shot, 99% for every color?

and where did you buy all this LEDs? are they glued on the heat sink or did you use the solderless approach?

just to know, per fixture you're using 43 LEDs on a 8.5" x 18" heat sink, right? any cooling fan?

i just noticed you're using quite a few white LEDs, is there anything special here or just a preference matter? the ratio is:

13 - Royal Blue
10 - Blue
4 - Red
4 - Green
8 - XM-L Neutral White
4 - True Violet


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Old 05/06/2012, 08:09 AM   #6
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I will be following along as I am getting ready to a 120g 6' long tank, although not near as impressive as yours. I have been going through the same threads as you mentioned and also feel a little confused with the flood of info out there on DIY LEDs.

I planned on using the LM3409HV driver based on terhaz's design located here http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...0#post19781750. I currently trying to figure out my DIY controller so I can run the lights.

Have you thought about using aluminum U channel as your heatsinks? I am leaning towards the U channel as it is way cheaper and there are several others running them without fans. What are your thoughts?


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Old 05/06/2012, 08:44 AM   #7
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ohh yeah, i'm confused too.

I'd like to use the LM3409HV limited to 48v, it is seems it's the better shot for large and complicated LED arrays as DWZM stated here http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...postcount=2245. but I have no idea where to start.

if you gonna to give it a try maybe we can do a group by but I have to say that i don't know the component list, where to buy them, how to weld each component in the board...

may we can help each other, you do list all components, LM3409HV board, arduino, for both projects and I pay it all, sounds good uh?

whithout fans? really? can you share the link address? I need to learn more about this subject 'cause the only thing I did was get into heatsink usa site e choose a heat sink who looks like the AI.


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Old 05/06/2012, 10:30 AM   #8
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I would be interested in a group buy and working together once we get all the details figured out. I am hoping to order the controller parts in the next couple of weeks and getting that built then moving on to the leds. I wasn’t clear if you were using a controller or building your own, what are you doing?

At the bottom of this post http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...postcount=2193 is a link to the BOM and board design. I was getting ready to order some boards some seedstudio, you have to buy in quantities of 10. But wanted to get controller done first. I am planning on 8 different colors (white, RB 450nm, RB 465nm, blue, green, red, red/orange, UV) with each being dimmable so I will be using 8 boards and may use the other 2 boards for the sump and put some frags in the sump.
For the controller I am leaning towards using the hydra-reef described here http://hydra-reef.com/wiki/Home.

I did quite a bit of reading on using U channel on RC. I tried to find some of posts I read in the past but I was not finding them. Here is a thread that people describe their LED build…post 16 terahz details his build and is not using a fan. But if you start searching you will find lots of info on not using a fan with a few stipulations. The obvious big one is that you have to have adequate ventilation. I have hood on my tank that is open on top so that should fine for convection cooling. Also it is going to depend on how close you put your leds. There was a post where they tested using an aluminum plate with no fins and no fans and if I remember correctly if spaced the leds 3” apart convection cooling was enough.


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Old 05/06/2012, 06:52 PM   #9
Euler Kernighan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kruserm View Post
I would be interested in a group buy and working together once we get all the details figured out. I am hoping to order the controller parts in the next couple of weeks and getting that built then moving on to the leds. I wasn’t clear if you were using a controller or building your own, what are you doing?

I'd like to build my own controller (hope be able to do that ).



Quote:
Originally Posted by kruserm View Post
At the bottom of this post http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...postcount=2193 is a link to the BOM and board design. I was getting ready to order some boards some seedstudio, you have to buy in quantities of 10. But wanted to get controller done first. I am planning on 8 different colors (white, RB 450nm, RB 465nm, blue, green, red, red/orange, UV) with each being dimmable so I will be using 8 boards and may use the other 2 boards for the sump and put some frags in the sump.

ok, so I'm following you on that and we're taking the terahz's LM3409HV route.

step by step:

1) access that link (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...postcount=2193) to the last revision of the LM3409HV based driver

2) overthere get into the link to the project files where you'll find the following files:
LICENSE.tx - no comments
LM3409.v06.brd - board layout
LM3409.v06.brd.png - just a board illustration
LM3409.v06.jpg - board photo (end product)
LM3409.v06.sch - board design
LM3409.v06.sch.png - schematics illustration
Parts.List.ods - BOM file (component list)
Parts.List.xls - BOM file (component list - same as previous but in .xls)

3) inside de BOM file ( Parts.List.xls ) there is a link to the Mouser Eletronics website where it's possible to get a quotation on (and buy) all components needed by the LM3409HV driver board

4) Save all files in a common place inside your home directory [ directory where LM3409.v06.brd is ]

5) the board itself can be ordered on a PCB prototyping service - http://www.iteadstudio.com , http://www.seeedstudio.com - 10 boards at minimum at the price of USD 10 ($1 each)


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Old 05/06/2012, 06:59 PM   #10
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6) on http://www.seeedstudio.com > Services (bottom left side menu) > Fusion PCB Service > Product Options:
Qty. : 10 (minumum)
Layer: 2
PCB Thickness : 1.6
PCB Dimension : 5cm Max * 5cm Max
PCB Color : Green / Blue / White / Red / Yellow
Surface Finish: Hasl / Hasl (Lead Free) / ENIG - what does all this means?
E-Test : 50% / 100% - what does it means?
7) after you've placed a P.O. of the board to SeeedStudio, you have to send the board layout to this guys by email but pay attention on this 'cause the guys at SeeedStudio does NOT accept .brd files so you CAN NOT send the LM3409.v06.brd to them before you have to make some 'preparation':
  • install EAGLE Layout Editor (http://www.cadsoftusa.com/ > Downloads > Download EAGLE)
  • access the EAGLE Layout Editor installation directory and
  • go to Fusion PCB Service at seeedstudio website, scroll down and download the "Eagle Design Rule" zip file
  • open the zipfile, there are two files there:
    - extract the file Fusion_eagle_rule_v1.1.dru into the EAGLE PCB Software installation directory\dru

    - extract the file Seeed_Gerber_Generater_v0r95_DrillAlign.cam into the EAGLE PCB Software installation directory\cam
  • open EAGLE Layout Editor MENU File > Open > Board > [ directory where LM3409.v06.brd is ]
  • after that you have to validade compliance with Fusion_eagle_rule_v1.1.dru: on EAGLE Layout Editor MENU > Tools > Drc...
    - on the DRC (default) window, click on load bottom and choose the [EAGLE PCB Software installation directory\dru]\Fusion_eagle_rule_v1.1.dru

    - then click on check bottom and the "DRC (default) window" will close

    - after tha click on MENU > Tools > Errors, the "DRC Errors windows appears". if there are any error (in my case), just click on error and "aprove it" clicking on Aprove bottom.
  • then it's time to generate (export) the project files to send them to seeedstudio: "EAGLE Layout Editor" MENU File > CAM Processor,
    - in "CAM Processor window" Menu > File > Job > [EAGLE PCB Software installation directory\cam\]Seeed_Gerber_Generater_v0r95_DrillAlign.cam

    - click on Process Job bottom - a lot of files will be generated on [ directory where LM3409.v06.brd is ]


8) after that you can pack (zip/rar) all the following files and name this file as D[ORDER_NUMBER]_[PCBSIZE (in this case 5x5)].zip
LM3409.v06.GTL - (top layer)
LM3409.v06.GBL - (bottom layer)
LM3409.v06.GTS - (solder stop mask top)
LM3409.v06.GBS - (solder stop mask bottom)
LM3409.v06.GTO - (silk top)
LM3409.v06.GBO - (silk bottom)
LM3409.v06.TXT - (drill sizes and positions)

after placed a order to SeeedStudio you'll receive a confirmation email with the order number, so you have to:


reply this email:
- in the subject place: D[ORDER_NUMBER]_[PCBSIZE (in this case 5x5)]

- attach the zip file D[ORDER_NUMBER]_[PCBSIZE (in this case 5x5)].zip

- in the body: This is y PCB file for order D[ORDER_NUMBER], Thank
and wait...


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Old 05/06/2012, 07:02 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kruserm View Post
For the controller I am leaning towards using the hydra-reef described here http://hydra-reef.com/wiki/Home.
I may use it too or Arduino controller - it seems it is the easiest way... but i have not decide yet, need to read more!


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Old 05/06/2012, 07:36 PM   #12
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So did you order the LM3409HV boards already or are you just describing on how to convert the brd file to their acceptable format?


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Old 05/06/2012, 07:39 PM   #13
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Quote:
Surface Finish: Hasl / Hasl (Lead Free) / ENIG - what does all this means?
I am not sure what this means but I have a friend that I can ask tomorrow.

Quote:
E-Test : 50% / 100% - what does it means?
This is asking do you want 50% or 100% of the ordered boards tested.


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Old 05/06/2012, 07:52 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kruserm View Post
So did you order the LM3409HV boards already or are you just describing on how to convert the brd file to their acceptable format?
just describing 'cause i got some questions:
- as you i'm going to make 8 LED array colors, do we need just 8 drivers? can a driver control 50 LEDs (cree cool white xp-g)?
- what about the power supply for this driver version?


thinking about ordering the drivers this week, what do you think?


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Old 05/06/2012, 08:06 PM   #15
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Quote:
just describing 'cause i got some questions:
- as you i'm going to make 8 LED array colors, do we need just 8 drivers? can a driver control 50 LEDs (cree cool white xp-g)?
I dont think you would be able to get 50 led's on one driver, but I would post that question on the LM3409 thread.

Quote:
- what about the power supply for this driver version?
This is one thing I have not figured out yet....I was waiting to figure this out after I built the controller. Figuring I can always use the controller for other things as well.

Quote:
thinking about ordering the drivers this week, what do you think?
We could but I was initially thinking of getting the controller running first as I would want the controller for the leds, but either way doesnt matter to me. What are your thoughts?


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Old 05/06/2012, 09:52 PM   #16
Euler Kernighan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kruserm View Post
...

We could but I was initially thinking of getting the controller running first as I would want the controller for the leds, but either way doesnt matter to me. What are your thoughts?

let's see if we are in the same page

[CONTROLLER: Hydra or Arduino] > [ DRIVER: LM3409 board ] > [ LEDs ]


by controller you meaning hydra or arduino 'layer', right? if you take the hydra route it'll be necessary to place an order in a PCB service the same as driver, you can buy they both together I guess.

i'm leaning toward to use the arduino board as a controller just because it is 'simple' and spend my energy on driver matters (i think it will be very hard).

a question just occurs right now: can I use just one controller to control all the drivers or it is mandatory using one controller to one driver?

thank you for helping me!

btw, all PCB services (seeedstudio, iteadstudio and batchpcb) only accept Gerber files not the .brd... so be prepared to install:


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Old 05/07/2012, 06:15 AM   #17
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Quote:
[CONTROLLER: Hydra or Arduino] > [ DRIVER: LM3409 board ] > [ LEDs ]
Yes, I was thinking of building the controller then start working on the driver then connect the led's.

Quote:
by controller you meaning hydra or arduino 'layer', right? if you take the hydra route it'll be necessary to place an order in a PCB service the same as driver, you can buy they both together I guess.

i'm leaning toward to use the arduino board as a controller just because it is 'simple' and spend my energy on driver matters (i think it will be very hard).
Yes we would have to have the board made, there is another reefer that has few boards available and said he would sell a board for $5 shipped and $2 for each additional. BTW, the boards would be blank and there is a BOM on the hydra site for all the components we would need order then solder the components on the board.

I was originally going the arduino route as well but the hydra is fairly well documented which steered me to lean towards the hydra. It seems like the arduino would be able to handle anything you wanted to do, I need to do a little more research on the differences between the two. Hopefully someone will chime in and be able to provide some details on arduino vs hyrda. Even though they are both based on the arduino code.

Quote:
a question just occurs right now: can I use just one controller to control all the drivers or it is mandatory using one controller to one driver?
You can use one controller for many drivers.


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Old 05/07/2012, 07:38 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Euler Kernighan View Post
a question just occurs right now: can I use just one controller to control all the drivers or it is mandatory using one controller to one driver?
It depends on the capabilities of the controller and the requirements of the drivers.

In this context, a normal Arduino (328p) with no other hardware can produce 6 PWM signals, so in effect you have 6 "channels" of control. Assuming your driver of choice is fine with a 5v pwm signal, you need no interface hardware. Assuming there are no strange complications, and the driver's current pull on the 5v channel is low enough, you can probably fit more of the drivers on a given channel than you could possibly want.


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Old 05/07/2012, 09:42 AM   #19
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Quote:
In this context, a normal Arduino (328p) with no other hardware can produce 6 PWM signals, so in effect you have 6 "channels" of control. Assuming your driver of choice is fine with a 5v pwm signal, you need no interface hardware. Assuming there are no strange complications, and the driver's current pull on the 5v channel is low enough, you can probably fit more of the drivers on a given channel than you could possibly want.
DWZM, with using terahz's LM3409 driver do you know if you would just use 1 of the PWM signals to control the 8 drivers using the addressing options of the MCP4726? I may be way off here but I thought you could daisy chain the 8 drivers together and then connect 1 of the 8 LM3409 drivers to the controller and then have the ability to talk to the all drivers through the 1 driver connected to the controller via the address of that driver.


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Old 05/07/2012, 10:14 AM   #20
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Hi guys,

I'm actually abroad so I'll not be very active, but from skimming the thread I have a few things to point out.

The latest version of the board is here: https://github.com/TeraHz/I2C-LED-Driver
The driver doesn't required PWM pins. The drivers are on the I2C bus. HOWEVER, because the DAC on the driver can have only 8 unique addresses you can have up to 8 drivers per controller without additional hardware (it uses 2 data pins from the controller). That being said, there are ways to chain up to 56 drivers on one i2c bus using a single chip like the MAX4572. I've specified all that in the Limitations paragraph under Hardware at the address above.

As for power supply, that would be largely determined by the components you select. I see you're considering my BOM which is for 48V. In that case, that would be the power supply voltage. Try to keep the LED array voltage within 10 volts under the power supply. It will make the driver work less and better.
The current requirement, again, depends on the component selection and how many boards you want to power by a single power supply. If, for example, you plan to run 1A per driver and power all 8 drivers with one power supply, I'd use at least a 10A power supply.

Good luck, and sorry if I don't respond right away.


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Old 05/07/2012, 12:10 PM   #21
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DWMZ / TeraHZ,

thank you guys for helping us on this!

one more thing (last thing?) gimme your honest opinion here, i'm try to do:


a) six modules fixture, each one with 40 LEDs - each color Dimmable - modules don't "talk" each other
ratio of: 14 WHT (cool or neural?) + 14 BL (8 BL + 6 RB) + 4 RED + 4 GRN + 4UV

or


b) just "one" module fixture, total of 240 LED - each color Dimmable - modules "talk" each other
ratio of: 84 WHT (cool or neural?) + 84 BL (52 BL + 32 RB) + 24 RED + 24 GRN + 24UV


What is the best option?


based on your choice, what route should I take?

CAT4101 LED driver (how many per module) or LM3409HV
Arduino (how many per drive) or Hydra
power supply?


i tried to make some math on power supply (700mA for XPE, 1050mA for XPG) but didn't get it. got some information on the LEDs i'm planning to use but don't know how to use them:

these two must runnning @ 700mA, right?
Cree XT-E Royal Blue 3.5V
Cree XP-E Blue 3.5V

this one must runnning @ 1050mA?
Cree XP-G R5 Cool White 3.v

a just got this information about this three:
Osram 3W Red LED 2.15V @400mA
Violet UV 3W LED 3.5V @ 700mA
XP-E Green 3W LED 3.8V @ 1000mA


should I run all @700mA?

it seems there's a word caution with parallel string of LEDs, right? so i'm intend run them in series - what do you think?


as you guys know, I knwo nothing about this and will strictly follow your directions.


thanks a lot!


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Old 05/09/2012, 08:44 PM   #22
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bump


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Old 05/13/2012, 11:51 AM   #23
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Sorry for the delay in the answer.... been offshore. Currently I am ramping up over an hour from 15% to 85%. I turned the intensity down some. I start the royal blues ramping 2 hours before and 2 hours after daylights. I have 2 rb's on each heat sink on a different driver and use those for moon lights...they turn off at midnight and back on at 5am. I do have a good bit of whites...and the stronger whites at that. I ended up adding more rb to help with that and cut down the intensity. Still waiting for all the sps to get used to them. Most of the color came back, just haven't seen any new growth yet.... Like I said, everything that comes from mh's or t5's go thru a brown phase. I hate it, but it is what it is...

Scott.


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Old 05/13/2012, 06:10 PM   #24
phasezero
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Euler Kernighan View Post
DWMZ / TeraHZ,

thank you guys for helping us on this!

one more thing (last thing?) gimme your honest opinion here, i'm try to do:


a) six modules fixture, each one with 40 LEDs - each color Dimmable - modules don't "talk" each other
ratio of: 14 WHT (cool or neural?) + 14 BL (8 BL + 6 RB) + 4 RED + 4 GRN + 4UV

or


b) just "one" module fixture, total of 240 LED - each color Dimmable - modules "talk" each other
ratio of: 84 WHT (cool or neural?) + 84 BL (52 BL + 32 RB) + 24 RED + 24 GRN + 24UV


What is the best option?


based on your choice, what route should I take?

CAT4101 LED driver (how many per module) or LM3409HV
Arduino (how many per drive) or Hydra
power supply?


i tried to make some math on power supply (700mA for XPE, 1050mA for XPG) but didn't get it. got some information on the LEDs i'm planning to use but don't know how to use them:

these two must runnning @ 700mA, right?
Cree XT-E Royal Blue 3.5V
Cree XP-E Blue 3.5V

this one must runnning @ 1050mA?
Cree XP-G R5 Cool White 3.v

a just got this information about this three:
Osram 3W Red LED 2.15V @400mA
Violet UV 3W LED 3.5V @ 700mA
XP-E Green 3W LED 3.8V @ 1000mA


should I run all @700mA?

it seems there's a word caution with parallel string of LEDs, right? so i'm intend run them in series - what do you think?


as you guys know, I knwo nothing about this and will strictly follow your directions.


thanks a lot!
I think you should create separate heat sink layouts for modular capability. Then you could arrange your heat sinks to fit whatever aquascape you choose. If you limit yourself to one large heatsink with a ton of LED's, and you all of a sudden want a minimalistic aquascape with tons of open space, it would be a waste to have all these LED's blasting the sand bed, when you could just place less fixtures with no optics around those areas.

The separate heat sink clusters also gives you a chance for some extra planning. Experiment with one heatsink and order a butt ton of LED's and find out what you like best. Then you can just take this design and scale it to fit your tank. While you can do a ton of research to find what other people like, there's still that possibility it might not fit your taste when you see it in person. So experimenting with one gives you that chance to find out what fits your personal taste.

As far as the LED specs, many people seem to be satisfied with their light output using optics and don't see a need to run their LED's at their max rated capabilities to prevent bleaching or extending their LED life. I on on the other hand don't use optics and have my drivers set so that with my potentiometer turned to the max, that my LED's are using their max current. So right now I have my XPG's set to use 1.5A if i choose to, and my XPE RB's at 1A. I would set my whites to max but I don't have enough royal blues to offset the powerful whites.


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