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Old 05/05/2012, 07:32 AM   #26
Paul B
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I have three times as many fish as you and I would feed one cube of mysis and some live blackworms or clam. I would never feed bloodworms because they are not worms but beetle larvae and not a real good food for salt water fish. Blackworms or clam is much better, I would also never feed brine shrimp plus, again, not the best food. Of course any food must be thawed and rinsed because about half of that frozen food is useless jel or juce that will provide no nutrition except to the bacteria to turn to nitrates.
Fish will eat as much as they feed them but they don't require much food, just the proper food.
Some of my spawning fish are 18 years old so I know they are not underfed.


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Old 05/05/2012, 08:08 AM   #27
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Quote:
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I have three times as many fish as you and I would feed one cube of mysis and some live blackworms or clam. I would never feed bloodworms because they are not worms but beetle larvae and not a real good food for salt water fish. Blackworms or clam is much better, I would also never feed brine shrimp plus, again, not the best food. Of course any food must be thawed and rinsed because about half of that frozen food is useless jel or juce that will provide no nutrition except to the bacteria to turn to nitrates.
Fish will eat as much as they feed them but they don't require much food, just the proper food.
Some of my spawning fish are 18 years old so I know they are not underfed.
Are you refering to Glycera dibranchiata?


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Old 05/05/2012, 08:12 AM   #28
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Are you refering to Glycera dibranchiata?
Yes but in the hobby they are usually sold as dried or frozen bloodworms, not a good food. Blackworms are much better. I know. fifty years of feeding them convinced me.


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Old 05/05/2012, 08:35 AM   #29
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Glycera dibranchiata is a polychaete and usually found in intertidal and subtidal regions. These aren't larva for any kind of insect. They burrow into the sand and only go to the top of the water to reproduce and die. I don't know how much nutritional value they hold but they are a very common bait used in fishing.


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Old 05/05/2012, 08:42 AM   #30
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OK, but the bloodworms commonly sold as fish food are insect larvae. I did look up
Glycera dibranchiata because I am not up on my Latin and you are corrct they are marine worms. Those are not whats sold as bloodworms as far as I ever saw, but I could be wrong. I do know the dried ones are just insect larvae.
This is what I find when I look up frozen bloodworms on the net

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A favorite of both freshwater and saltwater fish alike, frozen bloodworms (red mosquito larvae) contain a variety of important vitamins and minerals This ideal primary food is great for loaches, discus, bettas, as well as saltwater angels, butterflyfish, damsels, and more Treat your fish to the taste and nutrition of all-natural bloodworms
I do collect "real" bloodworms in salt water but they grow about 9" long and I have never found them frozen.


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Old 05/05/2012, 08:44 AM   #31
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if phosphates are 0 ,what is the maximum amount of nitrate you would allow in a sps dominate frag tank


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Old 05/05/2012, 08:48 AM   #32
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OK, but the bloodworms commonly sold as fish food are insect larvae. I did look up
Glycera dibranchiata because I am not up on my Latin and you are corrct they are marine worms. Those are not whats sold as bloodworms as far as I ever saw, but I could be wrong. I do know the dried ones are just insect larvae.
This is what I find when I look up frozen bloodworms on the net



I do collect "real" bloodworms in salt water but they grow about 9" long and I have never found them frozen.
You're right those freeze dried worms are larva. I don't know that I would feed my fish Glycera dibranchiata because they contain copper though.


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Old 05/05/2012, 08:48 AM   #33
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My nitrates are about 15 now and my SPS are growing nicely.
This acro grew from a tiny frag to about 8" across in about a year



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Old 05/05/2012, 09:03 AM   #34
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Getting back to bloodworms, many creatures that look like worms and are red are called Bloodworms. But the ones sold for tropical fish food are not real worms.
Blackworms are grown in California and are real worms that are commonly sold to pet shops. I use them every day.

http://search.aol.com/aol/image?q=bl...i1-standardaol

These are the blackworms I use in their keeper.



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Old 05/05/2012, 09:05 AM   #35
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You're right those freeze dried worms are larva. I don't know that I would feed my fish Glycera dibranchiata because they contain copper though.
Dam, if I saw your post I would not have to post that link. OK just ignore it. "These are not the droids you are looking for."


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Old 05/05/2012, 12:28 PM   #36
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Just my "few cents". I target feed my fish... even more, my Starry Blenny is trained to take food out of my hands, as well as my emerald crab and shrimps. I feed them until I see they are completely stuffed with food, and at the same time I careffully watch that no food pieces escaped from my hands and feeding tube. Yes, that seems to be a bit complicated, and takes some time to feed every creature...

Anyway, hope that helps.

P.S. Zero nitrates and phosphates for now with extremely overstocked 29g Biocube.


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Old 05/05/2012, 12:34 PM   #37
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I have always target fed my fish and would never just throw food in there.
I use one of these



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Old 05/05/2012, 01:23 PM   #38
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I also always taking out all that fluid from, for example, frozen brine shrimp... it is a great source of nitrates

Hmm, and my another thing is my DIY "bio-filter"... but that requires a lot of efforts.


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Old 05/05/2012, 02:30 PM   #39
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Randy:

I was wondering and thinking about your food/nutrients comment. It has been my impression that feeding is the primary method of nutrient import and thus, the less you feed, the lower the nutrients (all other things being properly maintained). I also thought that when fish consume all of the food, they break it down into a simpler form thus making it easier for the bacteria in the tank to run the nutrients through the nitrogen cycle. Uneaten food is still consumed by the bacteria but it takes longer and requires a more robust bacterial population. I assume I'm missing something and follow your suggestions very closely (although I haven't had the guts to start dosing Vodka and very little makes it past my personal consumption).

I'd appreciate your feedback. Thanks.


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Old 05/05/2012, 02:30 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Aiptasia View Post
I also always taking out all that fluid from, for example, frozen brine shrimp... it is a great source of nitrates

Hmm, and my another thing is my DIY "bio-filter"... but that requires a lot of efforts.
How do you know? What exactly do you think you are washing away? Many people have a mistaken impression of how significant those removable nutrients are.

Even more so than phosphate, all foods contain massive amounts of nitrogen that cannot be washed away. Washing out 1% of the N or P is probably not changing anything significant to the overall addition of N and P to the tank.


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Old 05/05/2012, 03:22 PM   #41
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How do you know? What exactly do you think you are washing away? Many people have a mistaken impression of how significant those removable nutrients are.

Even more so than phosphate, all foods contain massive amounts of nitrogen that cannot be washed away. Washing out 1% of the N or P is probably not changing anything significant to the overall addition of N and P to the tank.
Yes, that's true.

I just did one experiment - left that sort of a "juice" with some amount of my tank water (where nitrates are almost 0) in separate container, and then measured amount of nitrates later... seems like they increased significantly. And if biofiltration is not strong enough, I think that may be at least an additional source of nitrates (especially for smaller tanks). Just my humble opinion...

Then, I observed reactions of my corals (escpecially Montipora, Xenia and some Zoanthus species), and they completely don't like the "original juice" - they start to shrink, shrivel, "wither". I started to remove the fluid to make the food as much dry as possible, and replaced the fluid with vitamins and aminoacid solutions, and since then no bad reactions from my corals were noticed. From the other hand, aminoacids and vitamins are source of N as well Ok, then I think these additives are getting absorbed by most of my corals, unlike the original "juice".

Well, of course I may be mistaken, but I did a lot of experiments in my tank, and... yes, I know that what works for one tank, won't work for another for sure.

To be honest, I'm not really concerned about N or P, but... there's something else present in a frozen food original "juice" - preservatives? Stabilizers? I don't know, there's nothing shown on the package, but some critters from my tank definitely don't like it, whatever it is... thats why I prefer to remove the original "juice".

Sorry if I seem incompetent... again, it just some experiments only in my tank.

P.S. Sorry for my "English" again, hope you can read my "scribble"



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Old 05/05/2012, 06:07 PM   #42
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Fair enough. If the corals do not appear to like the liquid, that may be a good reason to avoid it regardless of what it adds or doesn't.


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Old 05/06/2012, 06:47 AM   #43
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I would like to add something about rinsing away liquids from frozen food.
A few weeks ago I went to Europe for a week and left a sitter for the tank. I gave her a cube of frozen food to put in the tank every day. She was to put it in a special feeder that I built that would thaw it in the tank and disperse it around.
I always thaw the food and rinse it before I put it in the tank, but I didn't want to put this person through this for the week.
When I came home, the substrait was almost covered in cyano. This was just from one week of doing this.
I had to add Chemi Clean to eliminate it.
My tank does not usually have hardly any cyano and I feel just this week of liquids from the food did it.
I do not test so I don't know if it raised the nitrates or anything else.


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Old 05/06/2012, 10:27 AM   #44
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What type of food?


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Old 05/06/2012, 11:19 AM   #45
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Frozen mysis is all I gave her to feed.


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Old 05/06/2012, 11:52 AM   #46
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The NLS pellets will not disappoint. I haven't found a single fish (aquatic specialist for a year at Petco, and I have 7 tanks at home) that doesn't go apesh-t for that food.


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Old 05/06/2012, 02:46 PM   #47
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Frozen mysis is all I gave her to feed.
And is that all you usually feed, and in the same amounts?


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Old 05/06/2012, 04:38 PM   #48
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No, I usually feed the cube of mysis along with fresh clam, live worms and live baby brine shrimp. But I always thaw the mysis and rinse it. This was about half the food I usually feed and it was only for a week. I didn't want the sitter to put too much food in the tank when I was not home. About half of the substrait was covered in cyano. I mean it wasent thick and covering the corals or anything but it was definately cyano and much more than I would want to see.
My tank generally only has a very small amount of cyano at the front glass under the gravel.
You can see some of it here as the dark places under the gravel. That is about the only place it ever grows.
I was surprised myself at how much cyano grew in such a short period of time with such a small amount of food.
Randy, you know that I know my tank, and I know when something is off. The only thing I can think of to grow that much cyano was the juices in the mysis which are about half of the material that is in those cubes.
I cleared it up in a day with Chemi Clean but it also killed some large sponges I had for a few years.
The tank is now back to normal




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Old 05/07/2012, 04:39 AM   #49
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OK. might be an interesting experiment once the cyano is gone to do everything the same and just don't rinse the mysis and see what happens.


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Old 05/07/2012, 04:47 AM   #50
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OK. might be an interesting experiment once the cyano is gone to do everything the same and just don't rinse the mysis and see what happens.
OK that sounds like a great experiment. When are we going to do that in "your" tank

It is easy to eliminate it but I lost a large blue sponge that I spent a couple of years growing. Sponges are the only thing so far I can tell dies with Chemi Clean.
All my cyano is gone.

I don't have a problem growing more cyano if it would prove something but what would it prove?
I didn't check the nitrates before or after and I am not sure if nitrates have much to do with cyano. In my experience DOC does grow it quite nicely and in some tanks such as mine it seems to always be on the edge of growing and a little DOC or shrimp juice just tips it over the edge and cyano grows.


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