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Old 05/10/2012, 08:26 PM   #26
madjoe
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i had that problem all test say zero but soon as i put phosphate remover things r all colored up now and looking good. sps hate any phosphates and the nuisance algae use it for food hence for reading of zero


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Old 05/10/2012, 08:30 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madjoe View Post
i had that problem all test say zero but soon as i put phosphate remover things r all colored up now and looking good. sps hate any phosphates and the nuisance algae use it for food hence for reading of zero
What was the name of the phosphate remover?


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Old 05/11/2012, 04:42 AM   #28
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The corals actually looked starved to me. Your algae is not really alot and seems to be growing in possible dead spots or areas of liitle flow where detritus accumilates. In cases of detritus settlement which can be high in nutrients algae my grow using the localized nutrients from the detritus. This could be why you are not getting any NO3 or PO4 when you test. I would increase the flow to the back corners of the tank and see if that makes a difference.

I would also increase feeding to see if the corals color up again.


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Old 05/11/2012, 08:13 AM   #29
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I'm sure there are many unknown causes for color loss, but IME when I've had this happen and the lighting hasn't been changed recently, it seems to be caused by my adding to much carbon/GFO to the system, or to little food for the corals (not feeding the fish enough/not enough fish), or maybe alkalinity/temp swings.

Elevated PO4 causes browning out, but bleaching? I don't think your problem has to do with PO4 levels, it's more likely something else.

Stay on top of regular water changes to eliminate the unknown factor, maintain your skimmer regularly, keep feeding your fish daily, add mexican turbo snails/hebivores as needed, and if you deem it necessary, maybe get a hanna checker for PO4. Also keep your alkalinity stable, and importantly don't add to much carbon/gfo to quickly, that alone can cause coral bleaching and tissue recession.

This was one thing it took me a while to figure out, sps need food in the form of fish waste. I was always scared of getting algae blooms, but IME corals need nutrients to maintain color. it's a balancing act isn't it?


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Old 05/11/2012, 01:59 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gon08 View Post
The corals actually looked starved to me. Your algae is not really alot and seems to be growing in possible dead spots or areas of liitle flow where detritus accumilates. In cases of detritus settlement which can be high in nutrients algae my grow using the localized nutrients from the detritus. This could be why you are not getting any NO3 or PO4 when you test. I would increase the flow to the back corners of the tank and see if that makes a difference.

I would also increase feeding to see if the corals color up again.
I have a extra koralia nano pump that I could put in place to help the flow. I will also turn up the flow on the MP10.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swerve's Reef View Post
I'm sure there are many unknown causes for color loss, but IME when I've had this happen and the lighting hasn't been changed recently, it seems to be caused by my adding to much carbon/GFO to the system, or to little food for the corals (not feeding the fish enough/not enough fish), or maybe alkalinity/temp swings.

Elevated PO4 causes browning out, but bleaching? I don't think your problem has to do with PO4 levels, it's more likely something else.

Stay on top of regular water changes to eliminate the unknown factor, maintain your skimmer regularly, keep feeding your fish daily, add mexican turbo snails/hebivores as needed, and if you deem it necessary, maybe get a hanna checker for PO4. Also keep your alkalinity stable, and importantly don't add to much carbon/gfo to quickly, that alone can cause coral bleaching and tissue recession.

This was one thing it took me a while to figure out, sps need food in the form of fish waste. I was always scared of getting algae blooms, but IME corals need nutrients to maintain color. it's a balancing act isn't it?
This is interesting. Now that I think about it this could have started when I began using GFO and carbon. I actually read a few threads from other reefers about the BRS ROX 0.8 stripping the water of nutrients. With this in mind I cut back the GFO and carbon in half by their recommended dose. I didnt see any changes.

I just picked up some Coral Frenzy but I have been hesitant to use it because of the algae. It seems that most of you think that the corals are being starved. Should I not worry about the algae and feed the corals?


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Old 05/11/2012, 02:08 PM   #31
Logzor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gon08 View Post
The corals actually looked starved to me. Your algae is not really alot and seems to be growing in possible dead spots or areas of liitle flow where detritus accumilates. In cases of detritus settlement which can be high in nutrients algae my grow using the localized nutrients from the detritus. This could be why you are not getting any NO3 or PO4 when you test. I would increase the flow to the back corners of the tank and see if that makes a difference.

I would also increase feeding to see if the corals color up again.
I agree. Increase flow, pull the GFO. GFO will quickly starve SPS.


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Old 05/11/2012, 07:36 PM   #32
CUNAReefer
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Some interesting reading on algae and low phosphates. I received this from Christopher Brightwell a couple of days ago...

"The Biofilm
One of the complaints often voiced by some aquarists using this method is that a
short, brownish film forms on static surfaces (as previously mentioned, it is most
prominent on aquarium panes and less so on live rock and sand) that detracts from
the overall appearance of what would otherwise be a “pristine” display. Ironically, the
film seems to be directly related to insufficient phosphate being present in the system.
The current theory, based on research recently presented in Nature, is that
cyanobacteria in phosphate-limited ecosystems can shift from the utilization of
phosphorus to sulfur and/or nitrogen compounds in their cellular tissue. Of greater
importance, in our opinion, is that in many cases the appearance of brown
cyanobacteria is an indication that the phosphate concentration in the system is too
low for long-term survival of corals. The experiences conveyed to us by many
aquarists indicate that corals maintained in these conditions appear to be more
susceptible to succumbing to infections or suboptimal conditions that would normally
© 2010 Brightwell Aquatics. All rights reserved.
not be considered lethal. This is, perhaps, what is meant by some experienced
aquarists as “maintaining the corals on the knife’s edge between life and death”.
Rapid- or slow-tissue necrosis and/or bleaching may result if the situation is not
remedied, which may be achieved by increasing dosing rates of CoralAmino,
Vitamarin-C, and/or Restor, and/or by decreasing the dosing rates of MicroBacter7,
Reef BioFuel, and the utilization of NeoZeo media in the system. Encouraging water
flow within the main aquarium and regularly cleaning these surfaces tends to
decrease the propensity for biofilm formation inside the display. Additionally, several
species of Acanthurids will graze on this film, helping control it and simultaneously
recycling some of the constituent nutrients (which decreases the need to feed)."

Hope this helps you as I have suffered from the same issues described in this thread. Maintaining some phosphate in my system has helped quite a bit.

Warmest Regards,
James


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Old 05/11/2012, 08:00 PM   #33
ChrisKirkland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CUNAReefer View Post
Some interesting reading on algae and low phosphates. I received this from Christopher Brightwell a couple of days ago...

"The Biofilm
One of the complaints often voiced by some aquarists using this method is that a
short, brownish film forms on static surfaces (as previously mentioned, it is most
prominent on aquarium panes and less so on live rock and sand) that detracts from
the overall appearance of what would otherwise be a “pristine” display. Ironically, the
film seems to be directly related to insufficient phosphate being present in the system.
The current theory, based on research recently presented in Nature, is that
cyanobacteria in phosphate-limited ecosystems can shift from the utilization of
phosphorus to sulfur and/or nitrogen compounds in their cellular tissue. Of greater
importance, in our opinion, is that in many cases the appearance of brown
cyanobacteria is an indication that the phosphate concentration in the system is too
low for long-term survival of corals. The experiences conveyed to us by many
aquarists indicate that corals maintained in these conditions appear to be more
susceptible to succumbing to infections or suboptimal conditions that would normally
© 2010 Brightwell Aquatics. All rights reserved.
not be considered lethal. This is, perhaps, what is meant by some experienced
aquarists as “maintaining the corals on the knife’s edge between life and death”.
Rapid- or slow-tissue necrosis and/or bleaching may result if the situation is not
remedied, which may be achieved by increasing dosing rates of CoralAmino,
Vitamarin-C, and/or Restor, and/or by decreasing the dosing rates of MicroBacter7,
Reef BioFuel, and the utilization of NeoZeo media in the system. Encouraging water
flow within the main aquarium and regularly cleaning these surfaces tends to
decrease the propensity for biofilm formation inside the display. Additionally, several
species of Acanthurids will graze on this film, helping control it and simultaneously
recycling some of the constituent nutrients (which decreases the need to feed)."

Hope this helps you as I have suffered from the same issues described in this thread. Maintaining some phosphate in my system has helped quite a bit.

Warmest Regards,
James
Very interesting read, I always knew it was a balancing act between the correct amount of PO4 and not having too much or too little.


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Old 05/11/2012, 08:18 PM   #34
Swerve's Reef
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That is interesting, thanks for sharing James.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reeflow View Post
Should I not worry about the algae and feed the corals?
It's all about "garbage in-garbage out" right? The trick is about balancing the food input to waste export on your particular system to make it happy. I'd feed the tank, monitor NO3/PO4 levels, reduce or temporarily eliminate the GFO and add some clean up crew to handle any algae.


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Old 05/11/2012, 08:34 PM   #35
CUNAReefer
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Its amazing at the amount of "pale" colors threads I see now since the increase in popularity of ULNS. Unfortunately, I too bought into the new methodology and have also been impacted by pale colors and slow growth. I run the full ZEO system. It wasn't until I started feeding on a daily basis, lowered my amount of PAR, Lowered my daylight to 6 hours, and increased my water changes did I see improvement. I sincerely hope that this article helps the OP. Here are some pics of my very pale colors. Hopefully these pics make the OP feel a little better about their corals. I just implemented some changes recommended by G. Alexander on the ZEO Forum. Its been a whole two weeks now since making the changes.

Warmest Regards,
James

Couple videos of my ULNS W/OLR BB tank:

http://s136.photobucket.com/albums/q...rent=007-2.mp4

http://s136.photobucket.com/albums/q...rent=008-2.mp4













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Last edited by CUNAReefer; 05/11/2012 at 08:47 PM.
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Old 05/11/2012, 08:34 PM   #36
CUNAReefer
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and some more because of the 10 pic limit...













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Old 05/11/2012, 09:36 PM   #37
napsterMS
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I know this sounds basic, but do you know if your temperature fluctuates at night. I had to put two heaters in my tank and use a controller because a little over 1.5 degrees of change killed some of my sps.


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