dosing nitrates?

flipteg · 05/22/2012, 12:48 AM

i set up a recirculating bio pellet reactor a couple of weeks ago. in about 2 weeks, the bio pellets brought my nitrates from 20 ppm to less than 2 ppm and phosphates from 0.24 ppm to 0.16 ppm. once nitrates went below 2 ppm though, it's been quite harder to maintain proper phosphate levels. nitrates right now is at 0.5 ppm and it is quite hard to get phosphates below 0.2 ppm. at one point, phosphates got up to 0.3 ppm, which is even higher than when i started the bio pellets with less feeding!

i have been running a GFO reactor which has been quite effective, but it's still having a hard time trying to maintain phosphates below 0.1 ppm. i'm quite positive that my rocks are leaching phosphates.

i'm thinking if i can dose nitrates, this will be cheaper than Rowaphos for controlling phosphates. i already know that bio pellets is effective at controlling phosphates provided that there is nitrate in the water.

i just need to know what form of nitrates are available for aquariums that i can use.

bertoni · 05/22/2012, 01:50 AM

Dosing nitrate might be easy enough. Sodium nitrate is one way to go. Amino acids might be easier to get in a food-grade form, though. Either should be okay, IMO.

flipteg · 05/22/2012, 09:00 AM

I saw a product called Seachem Flourish Nitrogen. it says it has 50/50 nitrates and nitrogen in ammonium form. would this be ok? I'm not sure if ammonium is ok for reef.

matt9190 · 05/22/2012, 09:06 AM

The ammonium will inevitably be oxidized to nitrate by the bacteria in your aquarium. It is safe for the reef if not added in excess. (ie, don't trigger an ammonia spike, and cause a cycle)

bertoni · 05/22/2012, 09:48 PM

I agree that Flourish likely is fine, as well. I would check the cost, but not worry otherwise.

Randy Holmes-Farley · 05/23/2012, 04:53 AM

I wish Seachem identified its products better. This one claims to be

"Flourish Nitrogen™ is a concentrated (15,000 mg/L) blend of nitrogen sources. It provides nitrogen in both the nitrate form and the plant-preferred ammonium form. However, no free ammonia is released because the ammonium in Flourish Nitrogen™ is complexed and unavailable until utilized by the plants. Flourish Nitrogen™ also provides nitrate for those plants that can readily utilize nitrate as well. "

which leaves people really not knowing what they are adding.

flipteg · 05/23/2012, 10:13 AM

hi, from their website it says "Derived from: potassium nitrate, urea (iminium salt)"

flipteg · 05/27/2012, 01:47 AM

so i started dosing the Seachem Flourish Nitrogen a few days ago. before dosing, i tested.
PO4 - 0.1 ppm
NO3 - 0.5 ppm
i dosed 13.5 ml of Flourish to target 5 ppm NO3. i used their online calculator to determine dosage.

24 hours later, i retested.
PO4 - 0.073 ppm
NO3- 1 ppm
dosed 12 Flourish to target 5 ppm NO3

another 24 hours later
PO4 - 0.098 ppm
NO3 - 1.5 ppm
dosed 25.5 ml Flourish to target 10 ppm NO3

that last dosage was 24 hours ago. my test tonight shows PO4 - 0.104 ppm and NO3 - 3 ppm. i dosed another 21 ml Flourish to target 10 ppm NO3. i will test again tomorrow. it shows just how hard it is for me to lower PO4. this is with a 10 day old 300 ml of Rowaphos in a reactor. before i replaced the Rowaphos, PO4 is at 0.15 ppm

Randy Holmes-Farley · 05/27/2012, 06:30 AM

After 10 days at 0.1 ppm phosphate, I expect the Rowaphos is depleted. It may have been in a couple of days.

Randy Holmes-Farley · 05/27/2012, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flipteg

hi, from their website it says "Derived from: potassium nitrate, urea (iminium salt)"

Thanks, I missed that. Well, that's pretty much a description intended to say little of value but sound sophisticated. A chemist would not no way to know what the material is.

Bear in mind that you are not just adding nitrate here. I'd be a bit careful of the other, basically unknown ingredient as it is not apparently intended for a reef tank.

flipteg · 05/27/2012, 11:51 AM

what else would you recommend for nitrate dosing? i tried to find NaNO3 or KNO3 but it is quite hard to find food grade. bertoni mentioned amino acids. i don't know what they are, can you please elaborate on this and where i can get them?

Randy Holmes-Farley · 05/27/2012, 12:28 PM

Amino acids are a fine source of nitrogen. There are many hobby brands, or a health food store may have suitable ones. They are an organic material that contains nitrogen that will break down to ammonia/nitrite/nitrate. They may provide useful nutrition to corals as well.

Some people have found a stump removal product to be potassium nitrate.

flipteg · 05/27/2012, 12:45 PM

yes, i found a lot of potassium nitrate on Amazon sold as stump remover or for making smoke bombs. i'm just not sure if these are pure enough to use on an aquarium. also, is there any worries of build up of potassium over time?

for the amino acids, is there a specific product that you would recommend. i just don't really know what it is. thanks for all the help!

Randy Holmes-Farley · 05/27/2012, 02:30 PM

The amount you'd be adding is fairly small, I presume, so that lessens the concern over purity, but it is a concern.

I wouldn't worry about building up potassium unless you do no water changes.

Search on amino acids here for tons of threads on brands people use.

flipteg · 06/09/2012, 03:54 AM

so for the first 4 days, starting May 23, i dosed a total of 72 ml. it has been 2 weeks since the last dose and today is the first time my nitrates went below 4 ppm. for the first 10 days of dosing, my phosphate was fluctuating and reaching a high of 0.14 ppm. i think this is because prior to this, i let the nitrates sit at less than 1 ppm for a couple of weeks. the bacteria on the pellets has leveled off to that level so when i added nitrates, it had to essentially re-cycle the media with bacteria. 10 days after dosing is when i started seeing skimmate activity and the phosphate levels tapering off. this is pretty much the same time frame as when i first installed the pellet reactor.

7 days ago phosphorus is at 26 ppb. it is at 23 ppb today. since i wanted to keep a fairly high nitrates of around 4 ppm to help process leaching phosphates, and to prevent the bacteria on the pellets from dying off, i dosed Flourish again to get it back up above 4 ppm nitrates. i also noticed that testing for nitrates 24 hours after dosing does not really show the whole picture. i think this is because the ammonium content of Flourish takes quite a bit more time to breakdown into nitrates.

tecapparatus · 06/09/2012, 05:20 AM

Gotta think for planted tank, KNO3 is easy to get for EI PMDD

http://greenleafaquariums.com/aquarium-fertilizer.html

its kinda like BRS for planted tanks.

NPK mix plus iron and micros are added everyday in my planted tank.

Diablo · 08/07/2012, 04:29 AM

Randy, is there any reason no one has recommended CaNO3?... seems to kill 2 birds with one stone... I have a DSB in my refugium and heaps of live rock. I expect that Nitrogen is limiting uptake of Phosphate. While I acknowledge that the amount of calcium dosed would be very small, it would ensure that there is no build up of accumulating ions like Na+ or K+.

Soggytoes · 08/07/2012, 06:10 AM

just get a fish that poops alot : )

bertoni · 08/08/2012, 03:48 AM

I guess it'd be okay, but you'd have to dose some sort of alkalinity without calcium as well, which would add to some sort of buildup.

sabbath · 08/08/2012, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soggytoes

just get a fish that poops alot : )

That would raise the po4 allot.

kissman · 01/30/2013, 05:50 AM

any updates on this thread? I am having trouble with coral colors because of low NO3. I want to raise my nitrates to 1-2ppm and have been trying to for weeks by over feeding.

barjam · 01/30/2013, 07:50 AM

I saw another thread on another forum where a guy claimed kno3 dosing caused rtn on two of his corals. One guys anecdote doesn't mean much just throwing it out there. I don't see how pure kno3 could do that.

I have had a have a bag of kno3 sitting around for a year too chicken to try it. I have pale corals like you kissman but have hair algae localized to a few rocks. Keeping 0 nitrate (salifert) and below .03 (hi-736) for over a year has not beat it.

kissman · 01/30/2013, 08:13 AM

yea I understand that i wouldn't be happy adding it either but I would try it. I would rather it come up on its own. I am at 0 NO3 on Red Sea Pro and Salifert, and .05ppm or 14ppb on Hanna 736 which is what I use aswell. I have a little algae on my powerheads but thats it. I have even been dialing down my skimmer a little each week trying to raise NO3 the problem though is I don't want PO3 to go up either. I do want to get NO3 to 1-2ppm and raise Alk to encourage my frags to grow but I need a constant food source of a little NO3 and PO4 to be able to do it. I am going to try the Red Sea Reef Care Program, but I 1 want to get color back and then start it.

05/22/2012, 12:48 AM	#1
flipteg Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 914	dosing nitrates? i set up a recirculating bio pellet reactor a couple of weeks ago. in about 2 weeks, the bio pellets brought my nitrates from 20 ppm to less than 2 ppm and phosphates from 0.24 ppm to 0.16 ppm. once nitrates went below 2 ppm though, it's been quite harder to maintain proper phosphate levels. nitrates right now is at 0.5 ppm and it is quite hard to get phosphates below 0.2 ppm. at one point, phosphates got up to 0.3 ppm, which is even higher than when i started the bio pellets with less feeding! i have been running a GFO reactor which has been quite effective, but it's still having a hard time trying to maintain phosphates below 0.1 ppm. i'm quite positive that my rocks are leaching phosphates. i'm thinking if i can dose nitrates, this will be cheaper than Rowaphos for controlling phosphates. i already know that bio pellets is effective at controlling phosphates provided that there is nitrate in the water. i just need to know what form of nitrates are available for aquariums that i can use.

05/22/2012, 01:50 AM	#2
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 68,496	Dosing nitrate might be easy enough. Sodium nitrate is one way to go. Amino acids might be easier to get in a food-grade form, though. Either should be okay, IMO. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

05/22/2012, 09:06 AM	#4
matt9190 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 88	The ammonium will inevitably be oxidized to nitrate by the bacteria in your aquarium. It is safe for the reef if not added in excess. (ie, don't trigger an ammonia spike, and cause a cycle) __________________ - Matt 30g glass DT (3" SB, 45lb DIY LR) + 20g DIY sump/fuge T5 HO (39w 10k, 39w actinic) + 2 LED DIY moonlight CPR overflow box + DIY protein skimmer

05/22/2012, 09:48 PM	#5
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 68,496	I agree that Flourish likely is fine, as well. I would check the cost, but not worry otherwise. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

05/23/2012, 04:53 AM	#6
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 81,937	I wish Seachem identified its products better. This one claims to be "Flourish Nitrogen™ is a concentrated (15,000 mg/L) blend of nitrogen sources. It provides nitrogen in both the nitrate form and the plant-preferred ammonium form. However, no free ammonia is released because the ammonium in Flourish Nitrogen™ is complexed and unavailable until utilized by the plants. Flourish Nitrogen™ also provides nitrate for those plants that can readily utilize nitrate as well. " which leaves people really not knowing what they are adding. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Club 65535 Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

05/22/2012, 09:00 AM	#3
flipteg Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 914	I saw a product called Seachem Flourish Nitrogen. it says it has 50/50 nitrates and nitrogen in ammonium form. would this be ok? I'm not sure if ammonium is ok for reef.

05/23/2012, 10:13 AM	#7
flipteg Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 914	hi, from their website it says "Derived from: potassium nitrate, urea (iminium salt)"

05/27/2012, 01:47 AM	#8
flipteg Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 914	so i started dosing the Seachem Flourish Nitrogen a few days ago. before dosing, i tested. PO4 - 0.1 ppm NO3 - 0.5 ppm i dosed 13.5 ml of Flourish to target 5 ppm NO3. i used their online calculator to determine dosage. 24 hours later, i retested. PO4 - 0.073 ppm NO3- 1 ppm dosed 12 Flourish to target 5 ppm NO3 another 24 hours later PO4 - 0.098 ppm NO3 - 1.5 ppm dosed 25.5 ml Flourish to target 10 ppm NO3 that last dosage was 24 hours ago. my test tonight shows PO4 - 0.104 ppm and NO3 - 3 ppm. i dosed another 21 ml Flourish to target 10 ppm NO3. i will test again tomorrow. it shows just how hard it is for me to lower PO4. this is with a 10 day old 300 ml of Rowaphos in a reactor. before i replaced the Rowaphos, PO4 is at 0.15 ppm

05/27/2012, 06:30 AM	#9
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 81,937	After 10 days at 0.1 ppm phosphate, I expect the Rowaphos is depleted. It may have been in a couple of days. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Club 65535 Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef Last edited by Randy Holmes-Farley; 05/27/2012 at 06:38 AM.

05/27/2012, 11:51 AM	#11
flipteg Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 914	what else would you recommend for nitrate dosing? i tried to find NaNO3 or KNO3 but it is quite hard to find food grade. bertoni mentioned amino acids. i don't know what they are, can you please elaborate on this and where i can get them?

05/27/2012, 12:28 PM	#12
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 81,937	Amino acids are a fine source of nitrogen. There are many hobby brands, or a health food store may have suitable ones. They are an organic material that contains nitrogen that will break down to ammonia/nitrite/nitrate. They may provide useful nutrition to corals as well. Some people have found a stump removal product to be potassium nitrate. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Club 65535 Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

05/27/2012, 12:45 PM	#13
flipteg Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 914	yes, i found a lot of potassium nitrate on Amazon sold as stump remover or for making smoke bombs. i'm just not sure if these are pure enough to use on an aquarium. also, is there any worries of build up of potassium over time? for the amino acids, is there a specific product that you would recommend. i just don't really know what it is. thanks for all the help!

05/27/2012, 02:30 PM	#14
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 81,937	The amount you'd be adding is fairly small, I presume, so that lessens the concern over purity, but it is a concern. I wouldn't worry about building up potassium unless you do no water changes. Search on amino acids here for tons of threads on brands people use. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Club 65535 Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

06/09/2012, 03:54 AM	#15
flipteg Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 914	so for the first 4 days, starting May 23, i dosed a total of 72 ml. it has been 2 weeks since the last dose and today is the first time my nitrates went below 4 ppm. for the first 10 days of dosing, my phosphate was fluctuating and reaching a high of 0.14 ppm. i think this is because prior to this, i let the nitrates sit at less than 1 ppm for a couple of weeks. the bacteria on the pellets has leveled off to that level so when i added nitrates, it had to essentially re-cycle the media with bacteria. 10 days after dosing is when i started seeing skimmate activity and the phosphate levels tapering off. this is pretty much the same time frame as when i first installed the pellet reactor. 7 days ago phosphorus is at 26 ppb. it is at 23 ppb today. since i wanted to keep a fairly high nitrates of around 4 ppm to help process leaching phosphates, and to prevent the bacteria on the pellets from dying off, i dosed Flourish again to get it back up above 4 ppm nitrates. i also noticed that testing for nitrates 24 hours after dosing does not really show the whole picture. i think this is because the ammonium content of Flourish takes quite a bit more time to breakdown into nitrates.

06/09/2012, 05:20 AM	#16
tecapparatus Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 63	Gotta think for planted tank, KNO3 is easy to get for EI PMDD http://greenleafaquariums.com/aquarium-fertilizer.html its kinda like BRS for planted tanks. NPK mix plus iron and micros are added everyday in my planted tank.

08/07/2012, 04:29 AM	#17
Diablo Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 215	Randy, is there any reason no one has recommended CaNO3?... seems to kill 2 birds with one stone... I have a DSB in my refugium and heaps of live rock. I expect that Nitrogen is limiting uptake of Phosphate. While I acknowledge that the amount of calcium dosed would be very small, it would ensure that there is no build up of accumulating ions like Na+ or K+.

08/07/2012, 06:10 AM	#18
Soggytoes Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 131	just get a fish that poops alot : )

08/08/2012, 03:48 AM	#19
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 68,496	I guess it'd be okay, but you'd have to dose some sort of alkalinity without calcium as well, which would add to some sort of buildup. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

01/30/2013, 05:50 AM	#21
kissman Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Waynesboro, Va Posts: 2,357	any updates on this thread? I am having trouble with coral colors because of low NO3. I want to raise my nitrates to 1-2ppm and have been trying to for weeks by over feeding.

01/30/2013, 07:50 AM	#22
barjam Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,606	I saw another thread on another forum where a guy claimed kno3 dosing caused rtn on two of his corals. One guys anecdote doesn't mean much just throwing it out there. I don't see how pure kno3 could do that. I have had a have a bag of kno3 sitting around for a year too chicken to try it. I have pale corals like you kissman but have hair algae localized to a few rocks. Keeping 0 nitrate (salifert) and below .03 (hi-736) for over a year has not beat it.

01/30/2013, 08:13 AM	#23
kissman Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Waynesboro, Va Posts: 2,357	yea I understand that i wouldn't be happy adding it either but I would try it. I would rather it come up on its own. I am at 0 NO3 on Red Sea Pro and Salifert, and .05ppm or 14ppb on Hanna 736 which is what I use aswell. I have a little algae on my powerheads but thats it. I have even been dialing down my skimmer a little each week trying to raise NO3 the problem though is I don't want PO3 to go up either. I do want to get NO3 to 1-2ppm and raise Alk to encourage my frags to grow but I need a constant food source of a little NO3 and PO4 to be able to do it. I am going to try the Red Sea Reef Care Program, but I 1 want to get color back and then start it.