Sea Dragons

Zach Vs Ponies · 06/13/2012, 05:47 PM

Hi, I had a quick question for all of my fellow seahorse keepers (and anyone else who wants to chime in).

Leafy and Weedy Sea Dragons are by far some of the most gorgeous and magnificent animals in the sea. I know of a few lucky aquarists (along with one on this forum) have kept sea dragons, along with many public aquariums. I also know that a few of them have been able to breed in captivity.

I am wondering what you all think the outlook on keeping them in captivity is. Like, 20 years from now, will keeping sea dragons in captivity be similar to keeping seahorses in captivty---Such as them breeding often and eating frozen foods.

Note: By no means is this me trying to jump into sea dragon keeping (I'd probably lose them in week 1), this is just me being the curious 17 year old I am.

Treed · 06/13/2012, 08:16 PM

That would be so cool if that would happen! We can only hope that people being successful in keeping them only continues!

reefstew · 06/13/2012, 08:50 PM

I don't believe you can even purchase them. But I would like that challange.

Braxibear · 06/13/2012, 08:59 PM

It is illegal to purchase and own them in the US. I think there is one member here that lives in southeast Asia that has some. Very beautiful creatures, but keeping them as like sea horses my never end up happening though. I don't think the populations are anywhere close to where they would do ok in the captive fish market.

timinnl · 06/14/2012, 04:21 AM

You are allow to own them in the states. I think one of the non-sponsor had them on offer a few years back?

DanU · 06/14/2012, 05:43 AM

They are not illegal to purchase or own but getting them is very difficult or expensive. The traditional vendors of these animals will not sell to just anyone and those that you do find are very expensive. The proper setup goes beyond what most hobbyist can afford or have the space for. The skill set that you should have before considering them also goes beyond the typical hobbyist level.

As for seeing them kept by hobbyists in the future, never say never in this hobby. 20 years is too far out to even predict. I don't see it in the immediate future.

Dan

snorvich · 06/14/2012, 06:30 AM

Expensive: Leafies are in excess of $10,000. You would need a cool tank around 60 F. My avatar is a pregnant male, image taken around Kangaroo Island.

mal7843 · 06/15/2012, 07:50 PM

From wikipedia:

Due to being protected by law, obtaining seadragons is often an expensive and difficult process as they must be from captive bred stock, and exporters must prove their broodstock were caught before collecting restrictions went into effect, or that they had a license to collect seadragons. Seadragons have a specific level of protection under federal fisheries legislation as well as in most Australian states where they occur.[1] Seadragons are difficult to maintain in aquaria. Success in keeping them has been largely confined to the public aquarium sector, due to funding and knowledge that would not be available to the average enthusiast.
Attempts to breed the leafy seadragon in captivity have so far been unsuccessful.[11]

mtc1966 · 06/15/2012, 09:53 PM

this topic seems to come up every few months

Zach Vs Ponies · 06/15/2012, 10:54 PM

I think I am thinking of weedy sea dragons when it comes to breeding in captivity.

http://scienceillustrated.com.au/blo...dy-seadragons/

snorvich · 06/16/2012, 04:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtc1966

this topic seems to come up every few months

It does. Magnificent creatures, however.

nanoreefer1000 · 06/17/2012, 12:36 PM

I saw one in 2010 that was $5,000. I forgot where it was, I have seen both at the Academy of sciences. I'm pretty sure their wild population is very low.

OoNickoC · 06/17/2012, 12:55 PM

A contractor I used to work with had the pleasure of working with a couple attempting to breed them in Sacramento. The setup was very basic contrary to anything I've heard ( I cannot blame anyone for disagreeing or literally not believing this lol) basically a 200 gallon cube dt and a 125 for a sump. Nothing even as complicated as most sps tanks.

IMO the biggest setback as to why they are not in the hobby more is simply due to their cost and collection/shipping logistics rather than them being terribly touchy.

snorvich · 06/17/2012, 02:21 PM

Well, I sort of agree with the above. Having dived with them in order to photograph them, it is not so easy to deal with the logistics of collection. We had to provide a safety diver above the sea dragon to keep it from rising in the water column (even though we were only at 60 feet) and getting decompression sickness. Collection would mean a very long and careful decompression process and maintaining coolish temperatures of about 60 F.

Zach Vs Ponies · 06/18/2012, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snorvich

Well, I sort of agree with the above. Having dived with them in order to photograph them, it is not so easy to deal with the logistics of collection. We had to provide a safety diver above the sea dragon to keep it from rising in the water column (even though we were only at 60 feet) and getting decompression sickness. Collection would mean a very long and careful decompression process and maintaining coolish temperatures of about 60 F.

That's really interesting. But why exactly would the dragon begin to swim up? To try to swim away from you (and the other divers)?

Tmoriarty · 07/23/2012, 11:41 AM

You can buy them currently for 4,995 dollars, free shipping, go figure, lol.

It is not illegal to own them or buy them in the United states, it is however illegal for them to collect them normally. From what I have heard there is only 1 permit to capture one male carrying babies a year. The babies are then hatched out in captivity and raised, those babies can be sold because they were captive raised.

There has been no success so far with breeding this animal in captivity, A lot of speculation that I have read goes to say that they think the water colums are not deep enough and that is preventing the eggs from planting properly on the males back. Sea dragons do not have pouches so carrying the eggs is a little different, and so far that has been the hang up on breeding them in captivity. Again this is information I have reasearched, not information I have physically seen my self.

snorvich · 07/23/2012, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zach Vs Ponies

That's really interesting. But why exactly would the dragon begin to swim up? To try to swim away from you (and the other divers)?

Exactly. We were exceptionally careful to not intrude in their space although I was shooting with a very wide angle lens which necessitated being close to them. However there was only two of us; myself taking pictures and a safety diver above to insure the dragon would not get DCS. My avatar is a pregnant male.

snorvich · 07/23/2012, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tmoriarty

There has been no success so far with breeding this animal in captivity, A lot of speculation that I have read goes to say that they think the water colums are not deep enough and that is preventing the eggs from planting properly on the males back. Sea dragons do not have pouches so carrying the eggs is a little different, and so far that has been the hang up on breeding them in captivity. Again this is information I have reasearched, not information I have physically seen my self.

In the wild, the ones I was around were at between 45 and 60 feet. Water temperature was 60 F.

Tmoriarty · 07/24/2012, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snorvich

In the wild, the ones I was around were at between 45 and 60 feet. Water temperature was 60 F.

Did you get a chance to see what the depth range they navigate is while emplanting the eggs on the male? Perhaps they need more water to properly execute their "maiting dance" and the conditions generally found in captivity, even at public aquariums, do not meet this criteria.

snorvich · 07/26/2012, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tmoriarty

Did you get a chance to see what the depth range they navigate is while emplanting the eggs on the male? Perhaps they need more water to properly execute their "maiting dance" and the conditions generally found in captivity, even at public aquariums, do not meet this criteria.

They operate pretty much at the same depth range all the time (Leafies not Weedies) and if I recall correctly mating time is late November. The picture in my avatar was taken in middle December around Kangaroo Island.

FishGrrl · 07/26/2012, 03:15 PM

Do you recall what the temperature of the water was when you see the pregnant males? I know at least one public aquarium is experimenting with warmer temperatures than what we normally consider okay for sea dragons, in order to encourage leafy sea dragons to breed.

fvalencia4 · 07/30/2012, 05:00 AM

where have you guys found them availeble for sale ???

Zach Vs Ponies · 07/31/2012, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fvalencia4

where have you guys found them availeble for sale ???

I have seen them for sale before, but it seems all of the websites with them don't have them anymore.

I did find this little article on them though: http://www.fishchannel.com/saltwater...y-dragons.aspx

snorvich · 07/31/2012, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FishGrrl

Do you recall what the temperature of the water was when you see the pregnant males? I know at least one public aquarium is experimenting with warmer temperatures than what we normally consider okay for sea dragons, in order to encourage leafy sea dragons to breed.

60 F. For me, that was very cold as I am a warm water wimp. (WWW)

Zach Vs Ponies · 07/31/2012, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snorvich

60 F. For me, that was very cold as I am a warm water wimp. (WWW)

I don't know how you did it. I got in the water with SeaWorld's Beluga Whales last year and it was 55 F. But, it was only my legs in the water. I don't know if I could do my entire body.

Actually, if I had the chance to see Leafy Seadragons, I think I'd do it

I can only imagine how cool that was to see a live, pregnant leafy sea dragon. I'd love to do that one day.

06/13/2012, 05:47 PM	#1
Zach Vs Ponies Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Mars Posts: 95	Sea Dragons Hi, I had a quick question for all of my fellow seahorse keepers (and anyone else who wants to chime in). Leafy and Weedy Sea Dragons are by far some of the most gorgeous and magnificent animals in the sea. I know of a few lucky aquarists (along with one on this forum) have kept sea dragons, along with many public aquariums. I also know that a few of them have been able to breed in captivity. I am wondering what you all think the outlook on keeping them in captivity is. Like, 20 years from now, will keeping sea dragons in captivity be similar to keeping seahorses in captivty---Such as them breeding often and eating frozen foods. Note: By no means is this me trying to jump into sea dragon keeping (I'd probably lose them in week 1), this is just me being the curious 17 year old I am.

06/13/2012, 08:16 PM	#2
Treed Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Ohio Posts: 158	That would be so cool if that would happen! We can only hope that people being successful in keeping them only continues! __________________ 75 gallon Seahorse tank, 75 gallon frag tank, 180 SPS tank still in the planning stages. Current Tank Info: 75 gallon Seahorse tank

06/14/2012, 04:21 AM	#5
timinnl Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 316	You are allow to own them in the states. I think one of the non-sponsor had them on offer a few years back? __________________ Although happy to chat on PM I always prefer to ask for & give advice on the open forum. This allows for healthy debate and encourages correction of possibly (unintentional) incorrect information.

06/14/2012, 06:30 AM	#7
snorvich Team RC member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Flatlander Posts: 26,095 Blog Entries: 27	Expensive: Leafies are in excess of $10,000. You would need a cool tank around 60 F. My avatar is a pregnant male, image taken around Kangaroo Island. __________________ Warmest regards and best wishes, ~Steve~ It is my policy to not respond to those who ask questions not to learn but to be bellicose. Life is a series of decisions serially executed but collectively judged. "Not using a quarantine tank is like playing Russian roulette. Nobody wins the game, some people just get to play longer than others." - Anthony Calfo

06/15/2012, 07:50 PM	#8
mal7843 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Tampa, Florida Posts: 418	From wikipedia: Due to being protected by law, obtaining seadragons is often an expensive and difficult process as they must be from captive bred stock, and exporters must prove their broodstock were caught before collecting restrictions went into effect, or that they had a license to collect seadragons. Seadragons have a specific level of protection under federal fisheries legislation as well as in most Australian states where they occur.[1] Seadragons are difficult to maintain in aquaria. Success in keeping them has been largely confined to the public aquarium sector, due to funding and knowledge that would not be available to the average enthusiast. Attempts to breed the leafy seadragon in captivity have so far been unsuccessful.[11] __________________ Matt Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining. Current Tank Info: 120 Mixed Reef

06/13/2012, 08:50 PM	#3
reefstew Registered Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Phoenix ,Az Posts: 1,201	I don't believe you can even purchase them. But I would like that challange.

06/13/2012, 08:59 PM	#4
Braxibear Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 65	It is illegal to purchase and own them in the US. I think there is one member here that lives in southeast Asia that has some. Very beautiful creatures, but keeping them as like sea horses my never end up happening though. I don't think the populations are anywhere close to where they would do ok in the captive fish market.

06/14/2012, 05:43 AM	#6
DanU Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Ft. Pierce, FL Posts: 554	They are not illegal to purchase or own but getting them is very difficult or expensive. The traditional vendors of these animals will not sell to just anyone and those that you do find are very expensive. The proper setup goes beyond what most hobbyist can afford or have the space for. The skill set that you should have before considering them also goes beyond the typical hobbyist level. As for seeing them kept by hobbyists in the future, never say never in this hobby. 20 years is too far out to even predict. I don't see it in the immediate future. Dan

06/15/2012, 09:53 PM	#9
mtc1966 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: middletown,ct Posts: 5,778	this topic seems to come up every few months __________________ 65g seahorse tank 20g sump with a reef octopus skimmer ,tlf 150 reactor, red sea ozone generator controller,cpr hob fuge with light and 2 China led lights one 42x1 w and one 24x3 w. occupied by 4 ecectus seahorses a couple small gobies and cuc. Current Tank Info: 58g main with 20g sump

06/15/2012, 10:54 PM	#10
Zach Vs Ponies Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Mars Posts: 95	I think I am thinking of weedy sea dragons when it comes to breeding in captivity. http://scienceillustrated.com.au/blo...dy-seadragons/

06/17/2012, 12:36 PM	#12
nanoreefer1000 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Bay Area,CA Posts: 709	I saw one in 2010 that was $5,000. I forgot where it was, I have seen both at the Academy of sciences. I'm pretty sure their wild population is very low.

06/17/2012, 12:55 PM	#13
OoNickoC Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Vacaville Ca Posts: 135	A contractor I used to work with had the pleasure of working with a couple attempting to breed them in Sacramento. The setup was very basic contrary to anything I've heard ( I cannot blame anyone for disagreeing or literally not believing this lol) basically a 200 gallon cube dt and a 125 for a sump. Nothing even as complicated as most sps tanks. IMO the biggest setback as to why they are not in the hobby more is simply due to their cost and collection/shipping logistics rather than them being terribly touchy. __________________ _______________ Nick O'Connor Current Tank Info: 5.5gal species tank for the time being...

06/17/2012, 02:21 PM	#14
snorvich Team RC member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Flatlander Posts: 26,095 Blog Entries: 27	Well, I sort of agree with the above. Having dived with them in order to photograph them, it is not so easy to deal with the logistics of collection. We had to provide a safety diver above the sea dragon to keep it from rising in the water column (even though we were only at 60 feet) and getting decompression sickness. Collection would mean a very long and careful decompression process and maintaining coolish temperatures of about 60 F. __________________ Warmest regards and best wishes, ~Steve~ It is my policy to not respond to those who ask questions not to learn but to be bellicose. Life is a series of decisions serially executed but collectively judged. "Not using a quarantine tank is like playing Russian roulette. Nobody wins the game, some people just get to play longer than others." - Anthony Calfo

07/23/2012, 11:41 AM	#16
Tmoriarty Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Visalia, Ca Posts: 1,026	You can buy them currently for 4,995 dollars, free shipping, go figure, lol. It is not illegal to own them or buy them in the United states, it is however illegal for them to collect them normally. From what I have heard there is only 1 permit to capture one male carrying babies a year. The babies are then hatched out in captivity and raised, those babies can be sold because they were captive raised. There has been no success so far with breeding this animal in captivity, A lot of speculation that I have read goes to say that they think the water colums are not deep enough and that is preventing the eggs from planting properly on the males back. Sea dragons do not have pouches so carrying the eggs is a little different, and so far that has been the hang up on breeding them in captivity. Again this is information I have reasearched, not information I have physically seen my self. __________________ Tyler Current Tank Info: Tanks: 203g custom, Mixed Reef, SRO-3000, Vortech-Powered (x2 MP40) 75g sump with 15g Fuge section

07/26/2012, 03:15 PM	#21
FishGrrl Seahorse Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Greater Milwaukee Area, WI Posts: 848	Do you recall what the temperature of the water was when you see the pregnant males? I know at least one public aquarium is experimenting with warmer temperatures than what we normally consider okay for sea dragons, in order to encourage leafy sea dragons to breed. __________________ Tami AKA Insane Fish Grrl FusedJaw.com: It's all about the snick! Current Tank Info: which one?

07/30/2012, 05:00 AM	#22
fvalencia4 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: sarasota , fl Posts: 17	where have you guys found them availeble for sale ???