Would a rusting hose clamp cause massive SPS die off?

[waverz]

When I set my tank up last September I used metal hose clamps on my inline heater coming from my return pump. I meant to change them out with plastic but never got around to it. I did notice they were starting to rust but really didn't think much of it. Over the last month my SPS has taken a turn ofr the worse.

I've been keeping SPS for nearly 10 years and have never seen corals do this.
My green slimer turned sort of purple other corals browned and and have burnt tips. Others are dying from base up and seem to loosing tissue.

I have lost nearly all my SPS colonies. All LPS seems to be fine as well as snails and crabs.

The only other thing that could be a problem that I know of is I recently removed my bio pellets as I couldn't figure out how to keep them from clumping every other day.

I had a fairly fast increase in Alkalinity but it has been stable since.

I have been noticing some fairly severe pH swings where pH drops below 6.6 at night. This could be a probe calibration issue as well but have yet to determine if that is indeed an issue.

I'm hoping by removing the rusty clamps and doing some sizable water changes things will stop dying and start improving.

[tmz]

I don't think those clamps did it. If they are steel all they will leach is mostly some iron. They are out of the water correct.? My in line heater is.

The alk bouncing could be a big part of part of it with sps in particular .

How do you supplement alk and alcium btw?

Ph at 6.6 will definately cause a problem; but I doubt that's accurate or even possible in a reef tank.

If it's only acros,could be a pest like red bugs or acro eating flatworms. Have you added any new acro specimens lately ?

Have P04 and/NO3 changed much since you stopped the pellets?

Water cahges sundlikea good move. Perhaps running some poly filter or cuprisorb and fresh gac would be helpful too.

[disc1]

I doubt that they are pure iron. If those clamps are galvanized like a lot of them are then they will leach zinc. That could be deadly. Never put metals in the tank. Never.

[naterealbig]

Take a look at post # 148. Any SPS he added to the tank died - Inline heater was the problem.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...1975860&page=6

[Heliman]

The clamps will NOT be iron...

They will be steel, this means when they "rust" you will get contamination from Iron, Zinc, Cadmium, Silicon, Tin and maybe Molybdenum.......not a friendly cocktail of metals to be going into your reef !!!!

[bertoni]

I agree that rusting clamps could be a cause of a lot of coral deaths.

[tmz]

Most of the hose clamps in the USA are stainless steel which as I understand it is mostly iron and non soluble ,non toxic chromium ( 10 to 11%). The ones I've used (never in the water) are and are common. Of course, some impurities may be present but I haven't seen a galvanized hose clamp in years .

"Screw clamps consist of a band (usually stainless steel in the USA)..."

from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hose_clamp


"..In metallurgy, stainless steel, also known as inox steel or inox from French "inoxydable", is defined as a steel alloy with a minimum of 10.5%^[1] to 11% chromium content by mass....."

From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stainless_steel

Stainless steel resists corrosion through a process known as passivation which occurs only when then chromium content is high enough and in the presence of oxygen. Corrosion is blocked from penetrating the metal .It does not work uderwater or completely in high salt conditions like salt mist around our tanks.

If it's put in the water it looses it's anti corrosive quality . If it corrodes out of the water what might dribble in with salt creep would be mostly iron and insoluble chromium. sTill it shouldbe avoided.

I avoid using stainless steel calmps above the water, nonetheless, where they might fall in or flake into the water but I don't think they are the cause of the poster's problems . It could be, I suppose ; I don't have the benefit of a visual. But there are other more likely suspects,imo.

The inline heater I use is simply a heater in a sealed glass tube sealed inside a plastic canister which connects in the return line . The hose clamps are not directly exposed to the water. It could fail as any other piece of electrical equipment ( power heads, submersible heaters, pumps, etc). If seals fail and the equipment short circuts it can spew a variety of toxins .

Had a korillia power head go last week . I took it out and plugged it in it died and you could smell the electrical smell.Fortunately it blew the fuse on the wave maker and tripped the gfci. Nonetheless, I still had a bit of rtn on a few corals at the base either from a toxin or just the lack of flow for a day and night.

[Pumpkin Bear]

Can stainless steel also contain trace amounts of copper?

[tmz]

Don't think so but impurities are possible , I suppose. Maganese and carbon are more likely from what I've read. Have you read it does?

[Heliman]

Tom

The OP said the hose clamps were beginning to rust...hence it is not likely that they are Stainless Steel....there are many High Tension steel clamps around (low cost) that are not exactly stainless.

Hence my concern that these clamps are dangerous in a reef environment

If Marine Grade or Aircraft Grade Stainless Steel clamps are used....less problems, but very expensive. But why bother, plastic is better and can easily handle the low pressures we work at in our tanks.

[StaghornE]

Have you checked for stray voltage?

[Empty Bottles]

The bands are stainless, but the screws aren't.

[scolley]

Originally Posted by waverz

When I set my tank up last September I used metal hose clamps on my inline heater coming from my return pump. I meant to change them out with plastic but never got around to it. I did notice they were starting to rust but really didn't think much of it.

Can you please confirm that these rusting hose clamps are submerged? Generally you do not submerge an in-line heater, which is why I ask.

And if they are not submerged, is water (condensation) dripping from the clamp into your DT or sump? If they are not submerged, and not dripping, this hose clamp conversation is a wild goose chase, as the problem is almost certainly elsewhere.

Also, reference has been make to Terhz's suspicion that his inline heater was responsible for his coral deaths. First, that was a Hydor brand heater. So not all inline heaters are implicated. Only Hydor's. Second, Terhz never proved conclusively that it was his heater. There were many moving parts to his problem solving process, so it is very much possible that the heater was not at fault. His journey is evidence that Hydors may be problematic. But I don't think it is proof.

Finally to the OP, how quickly did this coral health decline occur?

[Sport507]

Originally Posted by disc1

I doubt that they are pure iron. If those clamps are galvanized like a lot of them are then they will leach zinc. That could be deadly. Never put metals in the tank. Never.

+1

I work in metallurgy for a very high profile metals company and all stainless steels contain trace amounts of copper and other elements, which are not required to be reported by the ASTM or AMS material specifications. They are not relevant to the overall composition and intended use that the metal was designed for. So you will not find them when you look up the chemistry. There is only one stainless steel what will not corrode in seawater and that is Nitronic 50.

All others will corrode and release element in seawater at different rates.

Yes, keep ALL metals out of your reef tank water, it not an option but a must.

[tmz]

Thanks for the information Sport.

I agree stainless steel rusts.

I agree keep any metal out of the water and plastic is better in most out of the water applications where rust may drop into the water too.

For information's sake,trace impurities are in most everything we use ; is copper or zinc content known or is data on combined impurities as a % of various stainless steel grades available?

In my first post I noted my understanding that the clamp the op was using was out of the water and that any corrosion would be mostly iron.I also recommended polyfilter and /or cuprisorb and gac because of potential impurities from some flaking rust dropping into the water or a toxin perhaps from failed electrical equipment. If he put the in line heater the water for example.
My point was and is simply that I would not assume the clamps are the problem given the stated issues with ph, alkalinity and changes in nutreint levels and pellet use.

[waverz]

Originally Posted by scolley

Can you please confirm that these rusting hose clamps are submerged? Generally you do not submerge an in-line heater, which is why I ask.

And if they are not submerged, is water (condensation) dripping from the clamp into your DT or sump? If they are not submerged, and not dripping, this hose clamp conversation is a wild goose chase, as the problem is almost certainly elsewhere.

Also, reference has been make to Terhz's suspicion that his inline heater was responsible for his coral deaths. First, that was a Hydor brand heater. So not all inline heaters are implicated. Only Hydor's. Second, Terhz never proved conclusively that it was his heater. There were many moving parts to his problem solving process, so it is very much possible that the heater was not at fault. His journey is evidence that Hydors may be problematic. But I don't think it is proof.

Finally to the OP, how quickly did this coral health decline occur?

The rusting hose clamp was not submerged. The problem was the clamp wasn't quite snug enough and leaked causing the clamp to rust. The rusty water then ran back down into the sump.

The heater I am using is in fact a Hydor. My sump is very small so a conventional heater wouldn't really work well so I went with the inline as I have had no issues with them in the past. The heater appears to be operating correctly so I would think it would be safe to say that it isn't the problem.

The problem started about a month ago and today corals still are diminishing.

I'm hoping to save the few colonies I have left but if they don't make it I will continue doing WC's for a few months and try a few small cheap frags and watch what happens.

Thanks for all the replies so far.

[scolley]

Thanks for the clarification. While it was a typical mounting of an in-line heater, rusty water did drip back into tank water. So the "rust" discussion was not a red herring at all. Thanks.

As to the heater, as naterealbig indicated, Terahz did indeed have a similar problem that seemed to implicate his Hydor. I personally would not leap to that conclusion in your case, even though you have one too. But if you read what he went through, I'd hold it out there as a remote possibility. He's a friend of mine, so with a bit of insight into what he actually went through, I'd say it is a remote possibility. But personally I'd focus on other - far more likely - thing first.

I don't know enough about what kills SPS, and how quickly, to help much more. But knowing that the problem started a month ago, and was not a drastic, rapid die-off should be helpful to people that understand SPS better than I.

Thanks for the clarification, and good luck.

[MCsaxmaster]

Stainless steel has lots of other metals in it (especially chromium), many of which could increase to seriously detrimental concentrations in a recirculating system. Other than titantium, I wouldn't allow any metals near the tank, including stainless steel. This may or may not be the source of the problem, but nontheless I'd take steps to remove dissolved metals. Some Poly filters would help pull out excessive metals if they are present.

cj

[Sport507]

Originally Posted by tmz

Thanks for the information Sport.

I agree stainless steel rusts.

I agree keep any metal out of the water and plastic is better in most out of the water applications where rust may drop into the water too.

For information's sake,trace impurities are in most everything we use ; is copper or zinc content known or is data on combined impurities as a % of various stainless steel grades available?
In my first post I noted my understanding that the clamp the op was using was out of the water and that any corrosion would be mostly iron.I also recommended polyfilter and /or cuprisorb and gac because of potential impurities from some flaking rust dropping into the water or a toxin perhaps from failed electrical equipment. If he put the in line heater the water for example.
My point was and is simply that I would not assume the clamps are the problem given the stated issues with ph, alkalinity and changes in nutreint levels and pellet use.

No they are not combined but listed separately and yes in % or in some alloys PPM.

Here is a material certification from a very high end stainless steel. I have underlined only the elements that are required per; the above specifications. All the required elements have a min-max range and those not really needed will have a max range, like copper in this example has a max of .75%. Any over that and it will not meet spec. and the Heat will be scraped. Heats for mills are typically 40K lbs and that a lot of money. Chemistry matters.

The other trace elements are interesting.

[tmz]

Thankyou for taking the time to post that Sport. The NI nickel at 8.3% is particuarly concerning.

[Spyderturbo007]

Originally Posted by Sport507

+1

I work in metallurgy for a very high profile metals company and all stainless steels contain trace amounts of copper and other elements, which are not required to be reported by the ASTM or AMS material specifications.

I would love to know where you work. I happen to be a metallurgy chemist for a very well known laboratory in the industry. There is a very good chance that we know each other or our companies have done business together.

I'm currently working on a way to fuse alloys in platinum to create glass beads for XRF analysis. Significantly shorter turn around time than your standard ICP, gravimetric or volumetric analysis.

[naterealbig]

as naterealbig indicated, Terahz did indeed have a similar problem that seemed to implicate his Hydor. I personally would not leap to that conclusion in your case, even though you have one too. But if you read what he went through, I'd hold it out there as a remote possibility.

This is very true. I however have run into some recent problems of my own concerning SPS, and when I began making a list of things to "check" for potential problems, it just kept growing and growing.....and growing. Although I believe the condition of my corals was the product of several factors, I found it very helpful to eliminating the potential sources that were the "easiest" to correct, and sources that others here have thought may have caused problems.

I just happened to remember seeing the post about the heater and thought it may be of some use. If nothing else, it can be added to the list of things to check, and is something that can easily be ruled out.

I will admit, the rusty hose clamp is definitely sticking out like a sore thumb here.

[tmz]

FWIW, I use the hydor in line eth heater and have for over 7 years without trouble. I've seen a number of reports of heater failures in the threads but none for that particular heater that I can recall. I had a visa therm stealth litterally burst shattering the tank. Fortunately, it was a 10 gallon qt tank with no animals in it at the time.

It could be the clamp leaching a toxic free metal but there are other suspects:

alk swings, reported extreme ph drops and potetnial total organic carbon issues from the bio pellets or an unnoticed pest.
BTW if you are using gac which type ae you using ? There was some Kent reef carbon out there abut a month ago crashing tanks that was contaminated with a heavy metal, believed to be copper.

I will say that whenever , I have had sps stn issues and when I've noted them from other experienced reef keepers an aklalinity shift is often a precurser.

I'm sorry for your losses waverz, it's frustrating and you'll probably never know exactly what caused it .

[travis32]

I ran a return pump (in sump) submerged with stainless steel hose clamps, for a over a year. They didn't rust and I changed them out every 3-6 months to prevent the rusting process.

I'm surprised I didn't lose anything. I don't do that now, I have an external pump now. I had the issue that plastic hose clamps didn't hold tight enough, zip ties would break, and was left with metal hose clamps to keep the return hose on or the preassure of the pump would cause the hose to slowly slide off after a few days.. That's not something fun to come home to...

I had a mix of LPS and softies though at the time, no or very little SPS. I no longer have that tank or anything setup, but, I did acid wash and reuse some of the rock. could some of the metals fromt he hose clamp still be in my rock I'm using now? It's been2 years since then. maybe longer.

[waverz]

UPDATE: Since removing the metal hose clamp and replacing it with plastic along with SEVERAL water changes things are starting to look up. I have a couple colonies that survived but seem to still be dying but at a much slower rate than before.

All LPS is fine and looks healthy.

I have added a bag of cupramine to my sump to help "absorb" other metals that may still be in the water column.

Today I may do a fairly large water change and then go back to my weekly 10% scheduled water changes.

In a few weeks a may try adding a cheap hardy SPS frag and see what happens.

Hopefully, it will live and I can begin to re-stock.

I have been keeping mainly SPS tanks for over 10 years, this incident almost made me give it up. Apparently I am a sucker for punishment. ;-)

Wish me luck!